eOn Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Richard Brown
On 22 February 2018 at 19:00, Liam Proven
wrote: So the equivalences are:
SLE ~= RHEL
+1, agreed.
openSUSE Tumbleweed ~= Fedora (specifically, Rawhide, the rolling-release pre-alpha version comparable to Debian "Sid")
+0.5 you're not wrong..but; Rawhide and Sid are not really tested before releasing packages to users. By design and intent they can very often by broken. The design and intent of Tumbleweed is to never knowingly allow the shipping of anything broken. Tumbleweed only releases any new package once that cohesive build has been tested in openQA. That means we use OBS to build/rebuild all of the packages and media consistently as a result of any recent changes in the distribution, and validate the basic functionality covered by openQA. As openQA does user-orientated functionality testing (actually automates what a user will do, and looks for what they will see/read), we can KNOW that Tumbleweed can always be installed, X/Wayland always works, as do our tested desktop environments and popular applications, server workloads, etc.
That's what elevates Tumbleweed to miles above Rawhide and Sid at this time. (Though obviously, given Fedora are starting to test Rawhide and hold back it's releases based on their own openQA testing, I guess I'm going to have to stop saying that one day)
I was going to stay quiet because we were focused on openSUSE here, but now you've mentioned Fedora, which I'm heavily involved in. Rawhide has been gated on nightly composes for almost a year now. If a compose and test cycle fails, the snapshot does not get released to mirrors. This in fact became a problem because we had failed composes for over a week due a litany of problems. At this point, Rawhide is at the same level of working/broken as Factory, in my view. We have been holding back our releases based on failed tests on blocking media for at least the last two releases (so at _least_ the last year). This has triggered delays in both Fedora 26 and Fedora 27 releases. So you should stop saying this _now_, because this is not true. While it is true we don't make an equivalent to Tumbleweed as an officially supported thing, it's certainly something Matthew Miller is interested in having Fedora offer, and he always brings up "Fedora Bikeshed" whenever he talks about it. ;)
openSUSE Leap ~= CentOS (fixed release cycle, stable-ish, no commercial support)
+0.5 you're not wrong..but; openSUSE Leap contains a lot of additional packages, features, and functionality which is not available (or suitable) for SUSE Linux Enterprise.
This is not true either. CentOS ships with extra packages, features, and functionality contributed through various SIGs as module repositories that people can use. Much of it is not suitable or supported by Red Hat, and completely community driven.
So what _is_ relationship of SUSE to openSUSE?
SUSE is the founding sponsor of openSUSE. openSUSE is SUSE's closest open source community. SUSE engage with openSUSE as partners & peers.
I don't completely agree here. As SUSE is the primary sponsor and developer, there are a number of things it controls in very obvious ways. It does not use this ability often, but it has done so in the past. For example, my createrepo_c package was pulled into the distribution without me having my maintainership rights preserved, and I was rejected from even getting them despite me creating the package because the SUSE OBS team wanted total control of the package. That's fine and whatever, but do not try to play off SUSE as an equal. It's not.
Does SUSE sponsor openSUSE? If not, who does? Who's paying for it?
In addition to SUSE we have a number of other sponsors https://en.opensuse.org/Sponsors
In addition to those 'Project Sponsors', we have a plethora of other organisations sponsoring our events eg see https://events.opensuse.org/conference/oSC17 https://events.opensuse.org/conference/summitasia17
Cui bono -- who benefits?
openSUSE provides open source software. Anyone who wishes to benefit from what we do is welcome to do so.
In addition to those users who download openSUSE and our sponsors we have friendly relationships with a number of other corporations. For example, Fujitsu have repeatedly used openSUSE solutions, and there are many hosting and cloud providers benefiting from offering our images, of course. We're also chatting with a number of hardware providers about pre-loading openSUSE on their devices.
Who does most of the development?
100% of our development is done by our contributors ;)
(Note: our contributors include individuals employed by many corporations, including SUSE) Yes, I know, a cheesy answer, but if you want to understand, you NEED to start thinking along these lines.
What's the ratio of SUSE to non-SUSE contributors? Is that tracked? Is it public info?
It's public - all of our commits, like all of our code, can be seen in their associated OBS or GitHub projects. But that's a lot of data, and we do not actively track it. Speaking from the Board's perspective, when we last discussed parsing that data, we felt we didn't really see a benefit. if the Project is getting most of the things done that it wants to do (and generally speaking, it is), then why does it matter who any of our contributors employers are or their motivations are?
That said, it was analysed way back in 2012. At that time SUSE employees were responsible for ~35% of Submit Requests to openSUSE Factory, with the community responsible for 65%.
Historically, obviously SUSE started as the vast majority when openSUSE began. The SUSE/non-SUSE ratio reached about 50/50 in 2010. By 2011 the community was clearly doing more of the work.
It's important to note that SUSE has never reduced it's contributions to openSUSE, but the growth in our non-SUSE contributions has clearly grown at a higher rate over time, leading to that trend.
For a modern picture, there is an easy metric which might give you some indication
SUSE Linux Enterprise has a codebase across it's products that equate to about 3000 rpm source packages openSUSE's distributions are both over 12000 rpm source packages
We could assume that all 3000 of SLE's packages in Tumbleweed & Leap are 100% owned and maintained by SUSE employees in their work time; This is most certainly not the case, SUSE employees are encouraged to collaborate share maintainership with community volunteers, but it might just work to illustrate the point. That leaves 9000 source packages which are only in openSUSE because of volunteer work, either from non-SUSE employees, or SUSE employees contributing in their spare time. They're certainly packages SUSE do not actively care for (otherwise they'd be in the SLE products).
These package numbers have grown pretty rapidly over the last few years (Leap 42.1 was ~10000), suggesting both an increase in contribution from SUSE contributors and our non-SUSE contributors. From SUSE's side that makes sense given the companies recent growth.
I'd say it's a reasonable guestimate that the SUSE/non-SUSE ratio is still around 33/66
However I look at what goes on in openQA, there is no way in a million years I could suggest that SUSE do the majority of the work in openSUSE (though obviously, the work they do is wonderful and openSUSE wouldn't want to live without it).
Which distro is upstream from which?
Is it akin to RH:
Tumbleweed (is the upstream of) SLE (which is the upstream of) Leap
as
Fedora → RHEL → CentOS
That would be an over simplification
This is also an oversimplification for RH ecosystem, too. It's weird... Fedora → RHEL → CentOS ←Fedora + EPEL + SIGs There are also cases where CentOS SIGs contribute to Fedora, which feeds back down into RHEL and thus to CentOS.
A more accurate description would be
Tumbleweed → SLE → Leap ← Tumbleweed
You could simply this as
Tumbleweed → SLE + Leap
but it would miss the important detail that SUSE do test, harden, polish and SLE-ify that which they adopt from Tumbleweed before openSUSE takes those polished SLE sources and use them for the basis of Leap, which is then augmented with additional packages, often originating from Tumbleweed.
I guess you could say Tumbleweed is both the Alpha and the Omega, but that sounds a little grandiose. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- 真実はいつも一つ!/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org