Thinking Ahead.... A School Technicians / Network Managers point of view
So, good meeting and the debates have begun. How to push Linux & Open Source (Free software) in schools :- Firstly (I'm going to get this off my chest now) Don't antagonise school technicians - I wouldn't give a thank you for a managed service - I might as well go work for EDS as work in a school with a managed service. So you can run Linux remotely for £50 which is great I admit. However, you are reducing the technicians role to that of someone who puts cartridges in printers and cleans mice. There's a lot more to the role than you might think. The reason schools don't have technicians is that they can't pay the going rate for experienced techies because LEAS won't give them adequete budgets. I happen to be V. Lucky where I work and am paid quite well (approx. 17K p.a.). I've also built the current network, installed the servers and workstations and would like to move to Linux BUT - if you want to cost my time on a TCO basis then you can forget any hope of my using, considering or deploying Linux. Unless you've done this job don't knock it on a TCO basis - you need schools techies to make this work and threatening them with cost based analysis will just make you and Linux lots of enemies. Schools need decent techies, after all are Fen systems going to travel 250 miles to fix a malfunctioning computer system? How many schools were represented last Monday?, three of the delegates were from one LEA. Businesses can't take the lead in this - OSE needs to ask schools what they want from Linux. I can demonstrate what it can do easily enough but I have to convince teachers that it will work and that they can use it. So, we need to produce decent training materials based on what opensource has to offer, and where there appears to be no alternative we need to use the appropriate M$/Apple platform. Some examples of this software would be :- Spreadsheets: Gnumeric, Kspread, Siag, Xspread Word Processing: Gnuedit, Abiword, Maxwell Graphics: Paint, Xpaint, GIMP Databases: quicklist (www.quicklist.org - ms works / appleworks db lookalike but better of course!) Misc: Dia, Qcad (see Fen systems web site) Internet: Netscape, Mozilla etc and of course, StarOffice for the big stuff. I've tried to stay in a 'windows' like environment so teachers would not get 'scared' by the different desktop (X, as opposed to M$/MacOS). Should we really be 'teaching' pupils to use any single OS? surely it's better to use multiple OS's throughout the school, each OS in the place / subject to which it is best suited. Surely this way our children will learn what they need to know - transferable skills not packages. It's no use M$ bashing only, we need to convince all levels of education that teaching packages is not the answer to this countrys IT problems! Are you absolutly convinced that Thin client is the best way - remember, no server, no network. What is needed in school networks is redundancy, no matter what environment / OS is being used. You don't get that with thin clients and that's why I don't use and would not consider them. A mixture of thick & thin (and possibly just lean?) clients would be better. That's why managed services are not necessarily better than school techies! Anyway, that's enough for now (I've had my little rant so i'll sit back and wait for the flames!) - I apologise in advance is if unknowingly insulted anybody but I do feel that we need to operate om a much broader base than is currently being discussed. I've got more to say but I think it's better to stop here.... Alan ----------------------------------------------------- Alan Harris Network Manager Bryngwyn School Tel : 01554 750661 Fax : 01554 758255 E-mail: alanh@bryngwyn.carmarthen.sch ----------------------------------------------------- Notes: 1. The contents of this email may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown purposes! Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000. 2. The opinions expressed in this email are personal and may not be shared by Bryngwyn School. -----------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Alan Harris wrote:
So, good meeting and the debates have begun. How to push Linux & Open Source (Free software) in schools :- Firstly (I'm going to get this off my chest now) Don't antagonise school technicians - I wouldn't give a thank you for a managed service - I might as well go work for EDS as work in a school with a managed service. So you can run Linux remotely for £50 which is great I admit. However, you are reducing the technicians role to that of someone who puts cartridges in printers and cleans mice.
...and checks cables and looks after the network hardware and makes purchasing decisions and polices internet access and helps teachers and pupils to get the best use out of the system and... There are many, many useful things that *only* an on-site technician (or whatever other job title you want to choose) can do. Actually maintaining the OS and other software is not one of them - this is an area that can benefit massively from the economies of scale that come with providing a service to tens or hundreds of schools.
There's a lot more to the role than you might think. The reason schools don't have technicians is that they can't pay the going rate for experienced techies because LEAS won't give them adequete budgets. I happen to be V. Lucky where I work and am paid quite well (approx. 17K p.a.).
As you say, not all schools are able to find or afford technicians. Many have to rely on teachers putting in a vast amount of work in their own time. For these schools, who do not have and are unlikely to get a technician, a managed service is perhaps a very suitable solution.
I've also built the current network, installed the servers and workstations and would like to move to Linux BUT - if you want to cost my time on a TCO basis then you can forget any hope of my using, considering or deploying Linux. Unless you've done this job
I have "done this job".
don't knock it on a TCO basis - you need schools techies to make this work and threatening them with cost based analysis will just make you and Linux lots of enemies.
Do I take it that you would prefer me not to publicise the TCO arguments in favour of using Linux managed services? If so, then I would be interested in how you could justify that position while remaining consistent with the ideals of "openness" and "free competition".
Schools need decent techies, after all are Fen systems going to travel 250 miles to fix a malfunctioning computer system?
Yes, if the school has purchased the £100 per month support policy that includes up to three site visits per annum to fix problems that cannot be resolved in any other way. Alternatively, schools can spend only £50 per month on support and pay for site visits only if they become necessary.
How many schools were represented last Monday?, three of the delegates were from one LEA. Businesses can't take the lead in this
Why not? Why should I be disqualified from taking an active role just because I choose to provide my services to several schools instead of one?
Should we really be 'teaching' pupils to use any single OS? surely it's better to use multiple OS's throughout the school, each OS in the place / subject to which it is best suited. Surely this way our children will learn what they need to know - transferable skills not packages.
You could argue that there is enough variety within Linux to provide an environment for learning transferable skills. StarOffice - KOffice - GNOME office bits, for example.
Are you absolutly convinced that Thin client is the best way - remember, no server, no network. What is needed in school networks is redundancy, no matter what environment / OS is being used. You don't get that with thin clients and that's why I don't use and would not consider them.
Multiple servers? We advise that 30 clients per server is a sensible upper limit, mainly on the basis of avoiding a single point of failure. With the money you save by using low-spec, thin-client hardware you can easily afford a couple of servers and the problem is solved.
Anyway, that's enough for now (I've had my little rant so i'll sit back and wait for the flames!) - I apologise in advance is if unknowingly insulted anybody but I do feel that we need to operate om a much broader base than is currently being discussed. I've got more to say but I think it's better to stop here....
I would have thought that the current base of both users (schools), suppliers and independent advocates is about as broad as you are going to get. Michael Brown Fen Systems Ltd.
Hi Michael plus list, First off, apologies to Michael - my posting makes it look like I was making a personal attack on Fen Systems. Michael Brown wrote:
I have "done this job".
don't knock it on a TCO basis - you need schools techies to make this work and threatening them with cost based analysis will just make you and Linux lots of enemies.
Do I take it that you would prefer me not to publicise the TCO arguments in favour of using Linux managed services? If so, then I would be interested in how you could justify that position while remaining consistent with the ideals of "openness" and "free competition".
I have no problem with you publicising the arguments - but you should be aware that management and LEA's in particular would use this to remove undervalued and underpaid technicians. In addition M$, Apple et al etc have told us for years what was best for us and have been proven largely wrong - no wonder that we're a cynical bunch. Second example, I suggested three years ago that an LEA take a certain course of action and was disciplined for it - now they're implementing that very idea!
Schools need decent techies, after all are Fen systems going to travel 250 miles to fix a malfunctioning computer system?
Yes, if the school has purchased the £100 per month support policy that includes up to three site visits per annum to fix problems that cannot be resolved in any other way. Alternatively, schools can spend only £50 per month on support and pay for site visits only if they become necessary.
Point taken. But if the school had no technician would you be willing to come and clear a paper jam in a printer? If you're offering a full service then that, to me, includes such things as clearing paper jams, pushing cables back into sockets etc.
How many schools were represented last Monday?, three of the delegates were from one LEA. Businesses can't take the lead in this
Why not? Why should I be disqualified from taking an active role just because I choose to provide my services to several schools instead of one?
I think I gave the wrong impression - we're in the mess we're in at the moment because we listened to what businesses wanted and, because nobody, outside of open source, ever asks the people on the ground floor what they think - we get told what to do by business via the government etc and it's not working! Scott Adams is my hero on this! I don't think you should be disqualified - I happen to think you've got it just right and have a bright future, but no person/organisation can point the way forward alone, no person/organisation can be valued more highly than any other and every opinion is important. That's what we're about after all. I just think it's an interesting point and was really asking for information. After all, if my head asks me how many schools were represented and then how many businesses, and I reply more businesses than schools she's going to think that opensource is just another buck earner off the backs of the education system. If it's driven by education than they will take more notice. I would personally find it very hard to operate without IBM and Elonex - they never told me what I could and could'nt do with thier equipment when we bought it and, in the case of IBM, are really pushing open source, not only that but they provide excellent resources (IBM Redbooks) on line.
Should we really be 'teaching' pupils to use any single OS? surely it's better to use multiple OS's throughout the school, each OS in the place / subject to which it is best suited. Surely this way our children will learn what they need to know - transferable skills not packages.
You could argue that there is enough variety within Linux to provide an environment for learning transferable skills. StarOffice - KOffice - GNOME office bits, for example.
I agree, in principle. But until all the options have become available within open source then we need to use other systems as well, remember, ppupils leaving school for business will be able to take those skills with them, if they go to higher education then they will further those skills and again take them into business with them. They will be able to evaluate applications and solutions and propose the best way forward from an unbiased viewpoint.....
Are you absolutly convinced that Thin client is the best way - remember, no server, no network. What is needed in school networks is redundancy, no matter what environment / OS is being used. You don't get that with thin clients and that's why I don't use and would not consider them.
Multiple servers? We advise that 30 clients per server is a sensible upper limit, mainly on the basis of avoiding a single point of failure. With the money you save by using low-spec, thin-client hardware you can easily afford a couple of servers and the problem is solved.
I already run multiple servers - somethings run better on high powered equipment, some run better on low powered equipment. I don't trust thin clients - maybe it's a personal thing but I still want to work when the servers (plural) are down, or when the hub/switch/etc is down and so will teachers. It's a lot more work to use fat clients (but that's mainly the fault of the current widely used OS) than thin but the end result is, I think, better.
Anyway, that's enough for now (I've had my little rant so i'll sit back and wait for the flames!) - I apologise in advance is if unknowingly insulted anybody but I do feel that we need to operate om a much broader base than is currently being discussed. I've got more to say but I think it's better to stop here....
I would have thought that the current base of both users (schools), suppliers and independent advocates is about as broad as you are going to get.
By base I meant the area of operation of OSE. So far we've mainly talked about hosting and websites and domain names. We need to consider open source as a whole - biology is very good at describing individual organisims but ecology is a far better way of dealing with entire ecosystems. Thus OSIE or OSE, must consider all aspects of it's potential impact upon the educational society, hardware, software and training. We must also be able to demonstrate the use of such applications within appropriate educational contexts. Databases, for example, have a wider application than school management issues. Can we use a database in science? if so how? Why? In what way will it benefit the teaching and learning environment? It's not the users, schools and suppliers that need broadening but the way in which open source applications and thier benefits are discussed and applied. It's no good giving teachers the tools without giving them the ability to use them.
Again Michael - if any company deserves to succeed in this area then Fen systems does and I wish you all the best. But if it comes down to a decision between me keeping my job interesting, challenging and varied, (or for that matter keeping it at all) and your company installing a remotely managed system then I'm afraid your company is going to lose out. Note - this applies to any managed NGFL system. As I said, if I wanted to work like that then I'd get a job with EDS. In any environment other than open source we wouldn't be having this debate anyway, we'd have been told what to do, to get on with and not to ask questions - Free, as in speech, not as in beer after all. Alan
Michael Brown Fen Systems Ltd.
-- ----------------------------------------------------- Alan Harris Network Manager Bryngwyn School Tel : 01554 750661 Fax : 01554 758255 E-mail: alanh@bryngwyn.carmarthen.sch ----------------------------------------------------- Notes: 1. The contents of this email may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown purposes! Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000. 2. The opinions expressed in this email are personal and may not be shared by Bryngwyn School. -----------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Alan Harris wrote:
Schools need decent techies, after all are Fen systems going to travel 250 miles to fix a malfunctioning computer system? Yes, if the school has purchased the £100 per month support policy that includes up to three site visits per annum to fix problems that cannot be resolved in any other way. Alternatively, schools can spend only £50 per month on support and pay for site visits only if they become necessary. Point taken. But if the school had no technician would you be willing to come and clear a paper jam in a printer? If you're offering a full service then that, to me, includes such things as clearing paper jams, pushing cables back into sockets etc.
If a school doesn't have a technician then they can either: a) invest a minimal amount of time learning how to clear a paper jam (with the aid of the manual if necessary) and how to plug cables into the correct sockets (with the aid of our on-screen diagnostics that say helpful things like "My mouse appears not to be plugged in. Can you check that it is properly connected. The mouse lead ends in a connector that looks like... etc."), or b) scrape together an extra c.£15k to pay for a technician, or c) pay upwards of £200 to call out a consultant for a day. I expect most schools would opt for (a). That said, if one of our schools had purchased the £100 per month, includes-three-site-visits-per-annum support policy, then we would go and clear the paper jam if the problem could not otherwise be resolved.
How many schools were represented last Monday?, three of the delegates were from one LEA. Businesses can't take the lead in this Why not? Why should I be disqualified from taking an active role just because I choose to provide my services to several schools instead of one? I think I gave the wrong impression - we're in the mess we're in at the moment because we listened to what businesses wanted and, because nobody, outside of open source, ever asks the people on the ground floor what they think - we get told what to do by business via the government etc and it's not working! Scott Adams is my hero on this! I don't think you should be disqualified - I happen to think you've got it just right and have a bright future, but no person/organisation can point the way forward alone, no person/organisation can be valued more highly than any other and every opinion is important. That's what we're about after all.
Totally agree with you there.
I just think it's an interesting point and was really asking for information. After all, if my head asks me how many schools were represented and then how many businesses, and I reply more businesses than schools she's going to think that opensource is just another buck earner off the backs of the education system. If it's driven by education than they will take more notice.
I think the balance was heavily in favour of schools, but I don't have exact numbers.
Multiple servers? We advise that 30 clients per server is a sensible upper limit, mainly on the basis of avoiding a single point of failure. With the money you save by using low-spec, thin-client hardware you can easily afford a couple of servers and the problem is solved. I already run multiple servers - somethings run better on high powered equipment, some run better on low powered equipment. I don't trust thin clients - maybe it's a personal thing but I still want to work when the servers (plural) are down,
How often do all your servers go down at once? :-) We have never had a server failure on our office system (thin-client, Linux, two servers) - they happily run 24x7 and only get switched off for hardware upgrades or transportation to BETT, Salisbury etc. Oh, and sometimes they get a reboot when we need to test the installation procedure.
or when the hub/switch/etc is down and so will teachers. It's a lot more work to use fat clients (but that's mainly the fault of the current widely used OS) than thin but the end result is, I think, better.
It will cost you a LOT more to get similar levels of both performance and reliability out of a fat client system, even using Linux.
Databases, for example, have a wider application than school management issues.
Yes - apologies for the somewhat sparse page on StarBase in the Resource Library. If you picked up one of our brochures on Monday, you'll see that the text was basically extracted straight from the brochure, and that the brochure contained a fairly large screenshot illustrating a complex relational query, which took up most of the page!
Again Michael - if any company deserves to succeed in this area then Fen systems does and I wish you all the best. But if it comes down to a decision between me keeping my job interesting, challenging and varied, (or for that matter keeping it at all) and your company installing a remotely managed system then I'm afraid your company is going to lose out. Note - this applies to any managed NGFL system. As I said, if I wanted to work like that then I'd get a job with EDS.
I don't regard it as "losing out". If what you fear is true, and you would be out of a job if we were to put in a managed service, then it is far better from our point of view for you to be happily employed and hence able to contribute to OSIE. After all, everything that you contribute to OSIE is likely to help us produce a better product (and, similarly, everything we contribute to OSIE is likely to help you improve your school's system). Michael Brown Fen Systems Ltd.
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Alan Harris wrote:
Multiple servers? We advise that 30 clients per server is a sensible upper limit, mainly on the basis of avoiding a single point of failure. With the money you save by using low-spec, thin-client hardware you can easily afford a couple of servers and the problem is solved. I already run multiple servers - somethings run better on high powered equipment, some run better on low powered equipment. I don't trust thin clients - maybe it's a personal thing but I still want to work when the servers (plural) are down,
How often do all your servers go down at once? :-)
We have never had a server failure on our office system (thin-client, Linux, two servers) - they happily run 24x7 and only get switched off for hardware upgrades or transportation to BETT, Salisbury etc. Oh, and sometimes they get a reboot when we need to test the installation procedure.
or when the hub/switch/etc is down and so will teachers. It's a lot more work to use fat clients (but that's mainly the fault of the current widely used OS) than thin but the end result is, I think, better.
It will cost you a LOT more to get similar levels of both performance and reliability out of a fat client system, even using Linux.
You could make a decent workstation out of a 500MHz machine, might 128M rather than 32M of RAM though. Use reiserfs and it's most likely tougher than the average Win9X machine. (as well as about 200 quid cheaper, considering we have 28 computers per room that's over 5 and a half thousand pounds.) The apps can quite happily live on a server, even if you want the binarys on the local HDD putting "mount <server>:/apps /mnt; cp -a /mnt/apps /apps; umount /mnt" (in practice you'd want conditional copying) is hardly that tricky. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
Michael Brown wrote:
I have "done this job".
don't knock it on a TCO basis - you need schools techies to make this work and threatening them with cost based analysis will just make you and Linux lots of enemies.
Do I take it that you would prefer me not to publicise the TCO arguments in favour of using Linux managed services? If so, then I would be interested in how you could justify that position while remaining consistent with the ideals of "openness" and "free competition".
I have no problem with you publicising the arguments - but you should be aware that management and LEA's in particular would use this to remove undervalued and underpaid technicians. In addition M$, Apple et al etc have told us for years what was best for us and have been proven largely
Have been? IME they still are.
wrong - no wonder that we're a cynical bunch. Second example, I suggested three years ago that an LEA take a certain course of action and was disciplined for it - now they're implementing that very idea!
Do I get more points for managing to upset people at a Regional Broadband Consortia. (Effectivly taking on their claim to be "standards compliant" and asking "which standards". Never even got to the point of saying "this is a tree, not a grid".)
Schools need decent techies, after all are Fen systems going to travel 250 miles to fix a malfunctioning computer system?
Yes, if the school has purchased the £100 per month support policy that includes up to three site visits per annum to fix problems that cannot be resolved in any other way. Alternatively, schools can spend only £50 per month on support and pay for site visits only if they become necessary.
Point taken. But if the school had no technician would you be willing to come and clear a paper jam in a printer? If you're offering a full service then that, to me, includes such things as clearing paper jams, pushing cables back into sockets etc.
The point is that it isn't really an either/or situation, but there are people likely to see it that way.
How many schools were represented last Monday?, three of the delegates were from one LEA. Businesses can't take the lead in this
Why not? Why should I be disqualified from taking an active role just because I choose to provide my services to several schools instead of one?
I think I gave the wrong impression - we're in the mess we're in at the moment because we listened to what businesses wanted and, because nobody, outside of open source, ever asks the people on the ground floor
With the result that when the people on the "ground floor" are given a voice the first things to come out are their greviences, concerned and even cynisism.
what they think - we get told what to do by business via the government etc and it's not working! Scott Adams is my hero on this! I don't think you should be disqualified - I happen to think you've got it just right and have a bright future, but no person/organisation can point the way forward alone, no person/organisation can be valued more highly than any other and every opinion is important. That's what we're about after all. I just think it's an interesting point and was really asking for information. After all, if my head asks me how many schools were represented and then how many businesses, and I reply more businesses than schools she's going to think that opensource is just another buck earner off the backs of the education system. If it's driven by education than they will take more notice. I would personally find it
Interesting how LEA reps don't feature here, even with Roger's comment at the meeting...
very hard to operate without IBM and Elonex - they never told me what I could and could'nt do with thier equipment when we bought it and, in the case of IBM, are really pushing open source, not only that but they provide excellent resources (IBM Redbooks) on line.
Multiple servers? We advise that 30 clients per server is a sensible upper limit, mainly on the basis of avoiding a single point of failure. With the money you save by using low-spec, thin-client hardware you can easily afford a couple of servers and the problem is solved.
I already run multiple servers - somethings run better on high powered equipment, some run better on low powered equipment. I don't trust thin clients - maybe it's a personal thing but I still want to work when the servers (plural) are down, or when the hub/switch/etc is down and so will teachers. It's a lot more work to use fat clients (but that's mainly the fault of the current widely used OS) than thin but the end
The problem is a lot of things appear to have been coloured by Windows and measured according to Windows based standards. Even where those standards are meaningless.
result is, I think, better.
Anyway, that's enough for now (I've had my little rant so i'll sit back and wait for the flames!) - I apologise in advance is if unknowingly insulted anybody but I do feel that we need to operate om a much broader base than is currently being discussed. I've got more to say but I think it's better to stop here....
I would have thought that the current base of both users (schools), suppliers and independent advocates is about as broad as you are going to get.
By base I meant the area of operation of OSE. So far we've mainly talked about hosting and websites and domain names. We need to consider open source as a whole - biology is very good at describing individual organisims but ecology is a far better way of dealing with entire ecosystems. Thus OSIE or OSE, must consider all aspects of it's potential impact upon the educational society, hardware, software and training. We must also be able to demonstrate the use of such applications within appropriate educational contexts. Databases, for example, have a wider application than school management issues. Can we
Also it's important to be able to get existing data into a database.
use a database in science? if so how? Why? In what way will it benefit the teaching and learning environment? It's not the users, schools and suppliers that need broadening but the way in which open source applications and thier benefits are discussed and applied. It's no good giving teachers the tools without giving them the ability to use them.
Especially if there may be new things which can be done with it...
Again Michael - if any company deserves to succeed in this area then Fen systems does and I wish you all the best. But if it comes down to a decision between me keeping my job interesting, challenging and varied, (or for that matter keeping it at all) and your company installing a remotely managed system then I'm afraid your company is going to lose out. Note - this applies to any managed NGFL system. As I said, if I wanted to work like that then I'd get a job with EDS.
I'm must to some extent agree with Alan, especially since dealing with SWGFL has left a very nasty taste in my mouth. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
I'm sorry I've not had chance to make much of a contribution to the debate over the last few days - too busy teaching! My thanks to all who made Monday such an interesting day. There is quite a distinction between promoting Linux as a server solution, for which it is ideally suited at present, and pushing for a complete Linux desktop solution. A Linux server running Samba and Squid makes a powerful, and relatively low cost, addition to a network of Windows PCs presently installed as a peer to peer network - the case at present in many primary/prep schools. These packages are stable, easy to configure with GUI interfaces and, given the right distribution/documentation/support not beyond the wit of a humble ICT coordinator to maintain. Also for the under 11s, many of the excellent programs on Michael's resource list are perhaps a little too complex, although I'll certainly trial a few with our Year 6 girls to see how they cope. My Key Stage 1 & 2 colleagues currently expect a range of education specific titles to be available, which are only at present available for Windows - OK VMWare and WINE mean these can be run under Linux but that's kind of defeating the object IMHO. Given time then I'm sure the functionality of these programs will be available under Linux or, preferably, via the web. However, I see no alternative but to maintain the Windows desktops for the present, and I think this is likely to be the case in most primary or prep schools. A suite of thin clients running GIMP for the art department is not out of the question for us here though. I think that at least some of OSiE's efforts should be devoted to advocating Linux as a server solution for the small school. There are plenty out there still with no networking or with only peer to peer solutions for whom the huge added functionality of a single Linux box doing files, printers, proxying, mail and intranet would be a great benefit educationally and a good advert for what Linux can do. Setting up a NT box to do all this is certainly a non-trivial operation, but we do need to have a distribution that's at least no worse than this, so that a tech savvy but hard pressed teacher can still get it up and running. Miles Berry Deputy Head St Ives School, Haslemere www.st-ives.surrey.sch.uk
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Mr Miles Berry wrote:
Also for the under 11s, many of the excellent programs on Michael's resource list are perhaps a little too complex,
This is a known weakness - applications suitable for primary age are currently under-represented in the Resource Library (I think Logo is probably the only primary-specific application at the moment).
My Key Stage 1 & 2 colleagues currently expect a range of education specific titles to be available, which are only at present available for Windows - OK VMWare and WINE mean these can be run under Linux but that's kind of defeating the object IMHO. Given time then I'm sure the functionality of these programs will be available under Linux or, preferably, via the web.
Could you describe the education software that you use? Titles alone will not mean much to me, but if you can give me a description then I can start someone searching for Linux-based or web-based equivalents.
I think that at least some of OSiE's efforts should be devoted to advocating Linux as a server solution for the small school. There are plenty out there still with no networking or with only peer to peer solutions for whom the huge added functionality of a single Linux box doing files, printers, proxying, mail and intranet would be a great benefit educationally and a good advert for what Linux can do.
What is the demand like for this type of setup? It's relatively simple to set up, which is why we don't provide it - there's not much value we can add to the basic Linux distribution. For example, if I run through the install process on my distribution of choice, select "Server" and make sure to choose the Samba, CUPS, Squid, Postfix and Apache packages then I will end up with a system that requires only a couple of tweaks to turn it into the type of server you describe. The default configuration for most of the packages will suffice.
Setting up a NT box to do all this is certainly a non-trivial operation, but we do need to have a distribution that's at least no worse than this, so that a tech savvy but hard pressed teacher can still get it up and running.
Already exists! The installation procedure could even be automated to the point that the whole system installs automatically with the correct packages, automatic partitioning etc. by just creating a single text file. Michael Brown Fen Systems Ltd.
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Mr Miles Berry wrote:
My Key Stage 1 & 2 colleagues currently expect a range of education specific titles to be available, which are only at present available for Windows - OK VMWare and WINE mean these can be run under Linux but that's kind of defeating the object IMHO. Given time then I'm sure the functionality of these programs will be available under Linux or, preferably, via the web.
Could you describe the education software that you use? Titles alone will not mean much to me, but if you can give me a description then I can start someone searching for Linux-based or web-based equivalents.
It would be useful if this kind of information compiled into a support database. i.e. software people are actually using against open source equivalents. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
How many schools were represented last Monday?, three of the delegates were from one LEA. Businesses can't take the lead in this - OSE needs to ask schools what they want from Linux. I can demonstrate what it can do easily enough but I have to convince teachers that it will work and that they can use it. So, we need to produce decent training materials based
But not always the obvious teachers. I've spoken to my ICT co-ordinator who is not too fussed about what runs on the machines. (So long as it's possible to read .DOC .XLS and .PPT files) With the one exception of Microsoft Publisher. More problems would come from the technology department, with their Pro/DESKTOP, QuickRoute, TechSoft bits and pieces and the Science department with their stack of DK CDROMS. (There are probably some other subject specific applications, used a few times a year which I have forgotten too. Some will run under WINE, some will after some "prodding", some won't, some are hard enough to get to work with real Windows.)
on what opensource has to offer, and where there appears to be no alternative we need to use the appropriate M$/Apple platform. Some examples of this software would be :-
Spreadsheets: Gnumeric, Kspread, Siag, Xspread Word Processing: Gnuedit, Abiword, Maxwell Graphics: Paint, Xpaint, GIMP Databases: quicklist (www.quicklist.org - ms works / appleworks db lookalike but better of course!) Misc: Dia, Qcad (see Fen systems web site) Internet: Netscape, Mozilla etc
and of course, StarOffice for the big stuff.
I've tried to stay in a 'windows' like environment so teachers would not get 'scared' by the different desktop (X, as opposed to M$/MacOS).
Some teachers will get scared if you just move things around on a Windows Start menu or even change the colour of the screen....
Should we really be 'teaching' pupils to use any single OS? surely it's better to use multiple OS's throughout the school, each OS in the place / subject to which it is best suited. Surely this way our children will learn what they need to know - transferable skills not packages. It's no use M$ bashing only, we need to convince all levels of education that teaching packages is not the answer to this countrys IT problems!
Together with being impossible to do well without a TARDIS :)
Are you absolutly convinced that Thin client is the best way - remember, no server, no network. What is needed in school networks is redundancy, no matter what environment / OS is being used. You don't get that with thin clients and that's why I don't use and would not consider them. A mixture of thick & thin (and possibly just lean?) clients would be better. That's why managed services are not necessarily better than school techies!
One of the advantages of the X Window system is you can mix and match between "thin" and "thick" clients. As well as having multiple application servers displaying on the same machine. A possible problem with thin clients is that the X protocol does not (AFAIK) support sound. Some applications use sound (indeed most of the above mentioned DK CDROMS simply refuse to run at all if they can't find a sound card) also sounds can be used in presentations.
Anyway, that's enough for now (I've had my little rant so i'll sit back and wait for the flames!) - I apologise in advance is if unknowingly insulted anybody but I do feel that we need to operate om a much broader base than is currently being discussed. I've got more to say but I think it's better to stop here....
By all means continue Alan, what you are saying makes a lot of sense. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Mark Evans wrote:
One of the advantages of the X Window system is you can mix and match between "thin" and "thick" clients. As well as having multiple application servers displaying on the same machine.
Yes. You can even go some way towards implementing a variable-weight client and have processes dynamically moved between the client and the server according to current load conditions, if you want to.
A possible problem with thin clients is that the X protocol does not (AFAIK) support sound.
There are extensions that do. Try KDE 2.1 - can't remember the name of the sound server bit off-hand, but it should be easy to find. Michael Brown Fen Systems
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Mark Evans wrote:
A possible problem with thin clients is that the X protocol does not (AFAIK) support sound.
There are extensions that do. Try KDE 2.1 - can't remember the name of the sound server bit off-hand, but it should be easy to find.
It also depends how easy it is to modify other programs, including WiNE, to use such an extension. Or failing that make /dev/dsp and /dev/midi named pipes or similar. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
participants (4)
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Alan Harris -
Mark Evans -
Michael Brown -
Mr Miles Berry