RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Thinking Ahead.... Notes from a small school
The software we use, like many (most) schools for under 11s, falls into two groups. The first and most important is essentially cut down versions of applications software, although we do use MS Office for staff and the older girls. Much of the functionality of this software is available under Linux, although the various interfaces are, I feel, far too complex for our younger girls. The software we use at present: Clicker: Word processing/multimedia authoring using grids with words and pictures to select; writes HTML Dazzle: Bitmap editing with simple & customizable toolbars Super Logo: Logo programming My world: 'Fuzzy felt' drag and drop pictures and text Junior Pin Point: Simple database for statistics investigations; questionnaire design, data collection and analysis Geometer's Sketchpad: Interactive geometry - angles, areas, construction, transformations Text Ease: Word processing with speech and graphics; writes HTML MS Office: WP, Spreadsheet, relational database, presentation graphics MS Publisher: Easy way to produce visually stunning (if all rather similar) web pages, leaflets, etc. Corel Draw: Vector graphics Corel Photo-paint:Image manipulation I am aware that there are Open Source variants of these latter standard applications, but I will still get the argument from colleagues and parents that the Linux version isn't what the they and the girls are used to at home. Not an insurmountable argument but there would still be some resistance. The second category is the huge number of CD ROMs and older education specific programs. A lot of these are beyond the traditional drill & practice type of program and include open ended, problem solving and investigative opportunities. My colleagues all have there own favourites, but a few of those presently in use: Dorling Kindersley, I love maths: Various multimedia maths games, similarly for spelling and science Thomas the Clown: Multimedia problem solving activities - ordering, patterns etc. A variety of talking books Dorling Kindersley geography, history and science reference CD ROMS Still a fair few drill & practice programs for spelling (Star Spell) and arithmetic MS Encarta: Encyclopaedia, atlas, dictionary. An exhaustive list, even for just St Ives would be fairly lengthy. To get an idea of the vast range available see http://besd.becta.org.uk/ As to Michael's query about the market for Linux servers, whilst I'm aware that many state primaries have received NGfL funds to put an NT server solution in place, there are many more that have not (yet), and prep schools such as ourselves don't get NGfL money and have no LEAs making decisions or giving advice. According to the DfEE, the 'average' primary school has 17.8 PCs, but only 5.2 connected to any sort of network (http://www.dfee.gov.uk/statistics/DB/SBU/b0197/sb07-2000.pdf). A Linux box like the one suggested would transform existing peer-peer or stand alone hardware, and as he points out, would not be difficult to implement. It is harder to make money out of this if it's as easy as it should be, but this has never stopped RM. Miles Berry Deputy Head St Ives School, Haslemere www.st-ives.surrey.sch.uk -----Original Message----- From: Mark Evans [mailto:mpe@st-peters-high.devon.sch.uk] Sent: 16 March 2001 16:43 To: Michael Brown Cc: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Thinking Ahead.... Notes from a small school Importance: High
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Mr Miles Berry wrote:
My Key Stage 1 & 2 colleagues currently expect a range of education specific titles to be available, which are only at present available for Windows - OK VMWare and WINE mean these can be run under Linux but that's kind of defeating the object IMHO. Given time then I'm sure the functionality of these programs will be available under Linux or, preferably, via the web.
Could you describe the education software that you use? Titles alone will not mean much to me, but if you can give me a description then I can start someone searching for Linux-based or web-based equivalents.
It would be useful if this kind of information compiled into a support database. i.e. software people are actually using against open source equivalents. Miles Berry Deputy Head St Ives School, Haslemere www.st-ives.surrey.sch.uk
Hi to all on the list. Just introdrucing myself really. My name is Steven Parkes I work as in ICT Technician at Alcester Grammar School. When I started at the school they had 6 PC's, one with a dialup internet connection. Since being at the school (2 Yrs now) I've installed 1 NT Fileserver and approx 80 PC's with NT on for the students. All students have there own username and password with their own space on the server for files. All clients have internet access now due to having an ISDN line installed. I also look after the admin system 15 PC's and 1 server which was installed by CAM's, this I have had to install and setup correctly (so much for the proffesionals, it was the worst setup system I have come across). I have setup a school email system on this too. About two weeks ago I decided to look into setting up a Linux Web Server, this I have done plus a DNS server and are currently looking at setting up a proxy server too. I also do all the buying, act as a Helpdesk to the students and staff, and decide on the strategy that the school will take towards IT development. OK sorry thats all the boring stuff out the way. With regards to the discussion about putting Linux on the clients and using the free Linux software out there. My main problem Ive found is both the students and staff all want to take their work home and do it, then either email it or bring it in to finish off in break times. As all these people have had to buy systems with Microsoft products on them the question of compatability come into question. How can they do there work at home using the Microsoft products ie Office, Publisher, Works (yuk), then bring in and finish at school on a LInux system? Also the kids today already know how to use all the Microsoft stuff, It would be harder to teach them on a Linux system and they would struggle and possibly get confused using two totally different systems. Also as most workplaces have all Microsoft based systems when looking for Jobs they nearly always ask if you can use Word or Excel, if the kids had been taught on Linux machines they would have no chance in the real world when being forced to use a microsft based machine. This is why i chose an NT system as thats what out there normally. I would love to put Linux on all the computers but until most businesses do I can't see that happening. Thanks for listening Steve Parkes ICT Technician Alcester Grammar School ICQ 9814001 sparkz@breathemail.net staff@alcester-grammar.schoolzone.co.uk http://www.alcester.dial.pipex.com/
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 sparkz@breathemail.net wrote:
With regards to the discussion about putting Linux on the clients and using the free Linux software out there. My main problem Ive found is both the students and staff all want to take their work home and do it, then either email it or bring it in to finish off in break times. As all these people have had to buy systems with Microsoft products on them the question of compatability come into question. How can they do there work at home using the Microsoft products ie Office, Publisher, Works (yuk), then bring in and finish at school on a LInux system?
StarOffice will import and export MS Office files. You can also give StarOffice to students and staff to use at home.
Also the kids today already know how to use all the Microsoft stuff, It would be harder to teach them on a Linux system and they would struggle and possibly get confused using two totally different systems. Also as most workplaces have all Microsoft based systems when looking for Jobs they nearly always ask if you can use Word or Excel, if the kids had been taught on Linux machines they would have no chance in the real world when being forced to use a microsft based machine.
As someone else has already mentioned, this is the "education vs. training" debate. As a school, most people would expect you to be in the business of providing education.
This is why i chose an NT system as thats what out there normally. I would love to put Linux on all the computers but until most businesses do I can't see that happening.
I still find this philosophy puzzling. Given that schools ICT involves providing systems for people who, in the main, are several years away from full-time employment, why do some schools feel it necessary to restrict themselves to the systems in use by businesses today? Michael Brown Fen Systems Ltd.
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 sparkz@breathemail.net wrote:
This is why i chose an NT system as thats what out there normally. I would love to put Linux on all the computers but until most businesses do I can't see that happening.
I still find this philosophy puzzling. Given that schools ICT involves providing systems for people who, in the main, are several years away from full-time employment, why do some schools feel it necessary to restrict themselves to the systems in use by businesses today?
You could even replace "why do some schools" with "why does any primary or middle school"... At the secondary, sixthform or tertiary level the argument at least makes some sort of sense. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
On Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 08:10:40PM -0000, sparkz@breathemail.net wrote:
With regards to the discussion about putting Linux on the clients and using the free Linux software out there. My main problem Ive found is both the students and staff all want to take their work home and do it, then either email it or bring it in to finish off in break times. As all these people have had to buy systems with Microsoft products on them the question of compatability come into question. How can they do there work at home using the Microsoft products ie Office, Publisher, Works (yuk), then bring in and finish at school on a LInux system?
These people are gaining an education as to why proprietary software can bite them. They need to understand why using proprietary formats means that their work isn't transferable in a lot of cases. `Word' documents aren't even necessarily transferable between different versions of `Word' so they shouldn't use it if they need to transfer files between computers!
Also the kids today already know how to use all the Microsoft stuff, It would be harder to teach them on a Linux system and they would struggle and possibly get confused using two totally different systems.
Unfortunately, the learning process is often a case of `struggle' and `confusion' and if they already know the Microsoft stuff why the hell are we teaching them even more? Give them a broad education instead of one defined around a single manufacturers transient products.
Also as most workplaces have all Microsoft based systems when looking for Jobs they nearly always ask if you can use Word or Excel, if the kids had been taught on Linux machines they would have no chance in the real world when being forced to use a microsft based machine. This is why i chose an NT system as thats what out there normally. I would love to put Linux on all the computers but until most businesses do I can't see that happening.
When I learnt wordprocessing I learnt on Wordperfect on dos which in it's day was the de facto standard. A few years later it was no longer the standard and wordprocessor interfaces had completely changed, so that time I'd spent learning Wordperfect keystrokes etc. was largely wasted. I suggest that the kids today who are so busily beavering away on their MS apps are similarly wasting their time - if they insist on doing it let them do it in their own time, not in the schools where they are meant to be learning something useful and enduring. If the parents/teachers moan about not being able to use their software at home with the stuff they've done at school then tell them they've got the wrong software and to investigate getting free software that is compatible and uses open formats ie. text not binary. Why aren't schools teaching kids the fundamentals about computing? Why are they wasting the children's time with this proprietary nonsense? It's little short of disgraceful IMHO. How about teaching them (and the teachers) to use a text-editor and some mark-up? HTML, SGML/XML, LaTeX etc. are not going to disappear any time soon and what's more they're portable. There has to be a mirrored shift away from proprietary software within schools as now exists in the real world; evidence: the Internet. It no longer makes sense to use proprietary software and it makes even less sense to teach kids how to use it. In a networked society you *have* to use common protocols and formats and people should be taught how to use them if they're going to be productive when they leave school. This is where Linux is an ideal teaching tool and the Microsoft products are little short of hopeless. -- Frank *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* | Boroughbridge | Tel: 01423 323019 | PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 | *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/
With regards to the discussion about putting Linux on the clients and using the free Linux software out there. My main problem Ive found is both the students and staff all want to take their work home and do it, then either email it or bring it in to finish off in break times. As all these people have had to buy systems with Microsoft products on them the question of compatability come into question. How can they do there work at home using the Microsoft products ie Office, Publisher, Works (yuk), then bring in and
Personally I'd put the "yuk" after publisher....
finish at school on a LInux system? Also the kids today already know how to
You still run into problems with Microsoft Stuff, due to incompatable versions and users (including staff) not understanding how to use the "Save as" option...
use all the Microsoft stuff, It would be harder to teach them on a Linux system and they would struggle and possibly get confused using two totally different systems. Also as most workplaces have all Microsoft based systems when looking for Jobs they nearly always ask if you can use Word or Excel, if the kids had been taught on Linux machines they would have no chance in the real world when being forced to use a microsft based machine. This is why i chose an NT system as thats what out there normally. I would love to put Linux on all the computers but until most businesses do I can't see that happening.
IMHO the above probably qualifies for being on an FAQ. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
... but I will still get the argument from colleagues and parents that the Linux version isn't what the they and the girls are used to at home.
I know. I get it a lot too. I don't want to bore the list too much with it but the answer, which you probably already use, is that that's a good educational argument for using something a bit different at school. The job of the school is to educate them, stretch them, show them the variety of things that are in the world, introduce them to new ideas, new concepts, different way of doing things, get them to think, to puzzle out new things, to question the status quo. Not just to train them to use what they can work out for themselves at home. Indeed, giving them practice in working things out for themselves when faced with a strange new machine is exactly what is needed in schools, unless we assume computer development has stopped and there won't be different ways of doing things in ten year's time. It's worth repeating that last sentence in capitals, but you can re-read it. How often in the past ten or twenty years have we had to work things out for ourselves when faced with a new machine? Do we assume that there will no longer be that need? Is this not a critical life skill now? Can those who do not have it operate a mobile phone? A ticket machine? A car radio? Even a loo in a 747 is a bit of a challenge to those without the investigative and deductive skills required to operate a different sort of computer. -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-820527 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
... but I will still get the argument from colleagues and parents that the Linux version isn't what the they and the girls are used to at home.
I know. I get it a lot too. I don't want to bore the list too much with it but the answer, which you probably already use, is that that's a good educational argument for using something a bit different at school.
The job of the school is to educate them, stretch them, show them the variety of things that are in the world, introduce them to new ideas, new concepts, different way of doing things, get them to think, to puzzle out new things, to question the status quo. Not just to train them to use what they can work out for themselves at home. Indeed, giving them practice in working things out for themselves when faced with a strange new machine is exactly what is needed in schools, unless we assume computer development has stopped and there won't be different ways of doing things in ten year's time.
On past behaviour Micosoft changes UI every 18-24 months. So even if they stayed around for the next 10 years the original argument makes no sense.
It's worth repeating that last sentence in capitals, but you can re-read it. How often in the past ten or twenty years have we had to work things out for ourselves when faced with a new machine? Do we assume that there will no longer be that need? Is this not a critical life skill now? Can those who do not have it operate a mobile phone? A ticket machine? A car
20 years ago mobile phones were as expensive (and heavy) as a block of gold. So few people would have needed to know how to operate one...
radio? Even a loo in a 747 is a bit of a challenge to those without
Assuming they managed the task of getting on the plane in the first place. Let alone the difficulty they might have when they get where they are going with working out a strange language, set of customs and currency.
the investigative and deductive skills required to operate a different sort of computer.
participants (6)
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Christopher Dawkins -
Frank Shute -
Mark Evans -
Michael Brown -
Mr Miles Berry -
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