On Saturday 01 December 2001 21:28, you wrote:
If the content of this article is true (and I have reason to believe it is, having been the person who tipped off The Register, based on information from a third party), there is almost certainly nothing we can do to change what happens.
Try E-mailing James.Robertson@nao.gsi.gov.uk. (National Audit Office) cc to national press will help focus their minds. Express concern that these deals are flouting the NAO guidelines on tendering and also the need to establish value for money by considering the cost against similar alternatives. Tenders through the EU are essential to establish market values and there needs to be transparency in any savings. The basis of the savings in the NHS deal is not clear and no-one is volunteering to show how the figure for the "saving" was derived. If tendering is inappropriate because of monopoly, then regulation should be the option. Its one or the other, tendering or regulation and neither has been applied in the case of the NHS. Copy your E-mail to the editors of the national daily papers. If you are in the open source business complain to the office of fair trading that these deals are damaging your business by furthering and augmenting an established monopoly. Darren.Eade@oft.gsi.gov.uk cc to national press will help focus their minds. Also complain if you think EU requirements that procurement of greater value than £150,000 should be advertised in the EU journal and tendered to member states are not being met and that your business was not given the opportunity to compete. If you have contacts in other member states eg SUSE in Germany, Mandrake in France, get them to E-mail as well. Markt-B2@cec.eu.int.
But we can help to educate politicians and journalists - the more people write to their MPs, talk to journalists etc about what is really happening, the better.
Quite, get all your contacts to E-mail the above. Numbers indicate votes so the more the better. Keep it objective on the issues above and try not to give the impression that you are some kind of partisan nutter :-).
I think it's particularly important that this should be reported by the press in a cynical way: that requires journalists who understand the issues. I think there may be something in the Observer tomorrow. (Please don't buy the Sunday Times...)
More generally, the conflict of which this is a part is really hotting up now.
So let's pour some petrol on it ;-)
On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Malcolm Herbert wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23096.html
Regards, -- IanL
Before I click the unsubscribe list, I'd just like to make one further post to the effect that I didn't join this list to read about evangelical tirades against Microsoft and their Business practices. It would be nice if the *Nix commuinty could promote their products and services through advertising and on the basis that what they have is good, without finding every small reason to throw some bother Microsofts way. I am sick of the community watching their every move just so that they can point and laugh when they screw up. Well, Microsoft, you've got my support. I have been a Microsoft user for a long time, and always will be. I have been a *Nix user for a shorter time, but at the present time that may faulter until the whole system learns to grow up. And that includes the O/S as well for reasons that I really don't care to go into now. I'm tired, frankly, and I'm sad. Thanks for the informative info and strides that have been made into Education so far, lets hope something good does come out of it. Best regards, Robb Bloomfield, RLS Network Manager
I agree with the sentiments expressed below and will also unsubscribe if the list does not return to its prime puropse. On 3 Dec 2001 at 8:45, Robb Bloomfield wrote:
Before I click the unsubscribe list, I'd just like to make one further post to the effect that I didn't join this list to read about evangelical tirades against Microsoft and their Business practices. It would be nice if the *Nix commuinty could promote their products and services through advertising and on the basis that what they have is good, without finding every small reason to throw some bother Microsofts way. I am sick of the community watching their every move just so that they can point and laugh when they screw up. Well, Microsoft, you've got my support. I have been a Microsoft user for a long time, and always will be. I have been a *Nix user for a shorter time, but at the present time that may faulter until the whole system learns to grow up. And that includes the O/S as well for reasons that I really don't care to go into now. I'm tired, frankly, and I'm sad.
Thanks for the informative info and strides that have been made into Education so far, lets hope something good does come out of it.
Best regards,
Robb Bloomfield, RLS Network Manager
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
--- Richard Hobday Network Manager Haywards Heath College West Sussex RH16 1LT WWW: http://www.hhc.ac.uk Mail: rlh@hhc.ac.uk 01444 456281 X223 ---- Please note change of mail server address. All mail for Haywards Heath College should be sent to 'recipient'@hhc.ac.uk in future. Mail sent to @hhcoll.demon.co.uk will no longer be delivered. -- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 RLH@hhc.ac.uk wrote:
I agree with the sentiments expressed below and will also unsubscribe if the list does not return to its prime puropse.
The subject matter seems entirely appropriate to me. I for one would much rather see discussions about events that might make a real difference to use of Open Source Software than about the best choice of Ethernet card. Call me a late starter if you like, but I'm planning to spend the morning composing a letter to my MP to draw his attention to this topic. Bob G
On Monday 03 December 2001 09:21, Robert J Gautier wrote:
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 RLH@hhc.ac.uk wrote:
I agree with the sentiments expressed below and will also unsubscribe if the list does not return to its prime puropse.
The subject matter seems entirely appropriate to me. I for one would much rather see discussions about events that might make a real difference to use of Open Source Software than about the best choice of Ethernet card.
Call me a late starter if you like, but I'm planning to spend the morning composing a letter to my MP to draw his attention to this topic.
Interestingly, as I have travelled around the country and talked to lay IT users about the issue they are mostly horrified. They don't understand how licensing works and have never thought about it. I would have thought that the purpose of this list was to discuss issues relevant to Open Source software - at least that was why I joined. Freedom of speesch is about improving the level of understanding of issues through debate. Some of the discussions about obscure technical things are of no interest to me but it doesn't induce me to want to unsubscribe. If Open Source is to take off at the desktop, it will not be purely on technical merit - MS have shown that with DOS. Its all about confidence, politics and marketing. So is the list only about technical issues or about topical discussion on things related to Open Source? If the former it will become a nurds forum, if the latter it should have far wider appeal. -- IanL
Hi Robb, Richard. While I agree with the both of you regarding the contents of this mailing list. Advocacy has seemed to risen from the minority to the majority of posts to this list. This is (should be) a pity as the aims of this list to to promote Linux through helping Schools make use of it and end up with a better, cheaper, more reliable setup. This is still the main aim, and the reason most of us non-school related subscribers are here for - to help these schools. However, those of us in the trade, who follow these events closely, cannot help but feel angry. Not only at the tactics use by MS which nobody can deny are both illegal - as has been proved often - overly aggressive. Please do not think that we are anti-MS because we are pro-Linux. It's not that simple. Even if there were no Linux there would this anti-MS stance. However, if this talk is putting people off this list then this list is not doing it's job properly. If no schools get any help then we've already lost the war. Perhaps, (Roger?) someone could set up a second advocacy list where these threads could be moved to, and let this list get back to helping schools use Linux. Gary On Monday 03 December 2001 8:57 am, RLH@hhc.ac.uk wrote:
I agree with the sentiments expressed below and will also unsubscribe if the list does not return to its prime puropse.
On 3 Dec 2001 at 8:45, Robb Bloomfield wrote:
Before I click the unsubscribe list, I'd just like to make one further post to the effect that I didn't join this list to read about evangelical tirades against Microsoft and their Business practices. It would be nice if the *Nix commuinty could promote their products and services through advertising and on the basis that what they have is good, without finding every small reason to throw some bother Microsofts way. I am sick of the community watching their every move just so that they can point and laugh when they screw up. Well, Microsoft, you've got my support. I have been a Microsoft user for a long time, and always will be. I have been a *Nix user for a shorter time, but at the present time that may faulter until the whole system learns to grow up. And that includes the O/S as well for reasons that I really don't care to go into now. I'm tired, frankly, and I'm sad.
Thanks for the informative info and strides that have been made into Education so far, lets hope something good does come out of it.
Best regards,
Robb Bloomfield, RLS Network Manager
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On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Gary Stainburn wrote:
While I agree with the both of you regarding the contents of this mailing list. Advocacy has seemed to risen from the minority to the majority of posts to this list. This is (should be) a pity as the aims of this list to to promote Linux through helping Schools make use of it and end up with a better, cheaper, more reliable setup. This is still the main aim, and the reason most of us non-school related subscribers are here for - to help these schools. <snip> However, if this talk is putting people off this list then this list is not doing it's job properly. If no schools get any help then we've already lost the war. Perhaps, (Roger?) someone could set up a second advocacy list where these threads could be moved to, and let this list get back to helping schools use Linux.
If I've been reading the same list as everyone else, then I'm puzzled. Every post that I have seen in which a school asked for help has been met by several helpful responses. Maybe those lurking complainants would enjoy the list more if they participated, perhaps by posting a few questions? Just a thought - please don't flame me for it. Michael
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 RLH@hhc.ac.uk wrote:
I agree with the sentiments expressed below and will also unsubscribe if the list does not return to its prime puropse.
The subject matter seems entirely appropriate to me. I for one would much rather see discussions about events that might make a real difference to use of Open Source Software than about the best choice of Ethernet card.
Not sure when there was one about the best choice of network card. But one of the threads last week was about companies *demanding* the use of MSIE for exam EDI. IMHO another example of the same mindset of "Microsoft equates to computers"... -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
On Monday 03 December 2001 09:21, Robert J Gautier wrote:
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 RLH@hhc.ac.uk wrote:
I agree with the sentiments expressed below and will also unsubscribe if the list does not return to its prime puropse.
The subject matter seems entirely appropriate to me. I for one would much rather see discussions about events that might make a real difference to use of Open Source Software than about the best choice of Ethernet card.
Call me a late starter if you like, but I'm planning to spend the morning composing a letter to my MP to draw his attention to this topic.
Interestingly, as I have travelled around the country and talked to lay IT users about the issue they are mostly horrified. They don't understand how licensing works and have never thought about it. I would have thought that
If people don't undrestand any software licencing how can they understand the idea of an open source licence?
the purpose of this list was to discuss issues relevant to Open Source software - at least that was why I joined. Freedom of speesch is about improving the level of understanding of issues through debate. Some of the discussions about obscure technical things are of no interest to me but it doesn't induce me to want to unsubscribe. If Open Source is to take off at the desktop, it will not be purely on technical merit - MS have shown that
Indeed it isn't about technical merit *now*. As evidenced by things such as exam EDI (and certain RBCs, check out http://support.swgfl.org.uk/) demanding the use of specific software (typically MSIE) for no good (technical) reason what so ever. Indeed using a web browser for sending files makes no sense *at all* from a systems analysis/software engineering POV.
with DOS. Its all about confidence, politics and marketing. So is the list
Also that competition is very difficult in an environment where someone does not play by the rules, indeed rewrites the rules and sidesteps them. Similar rules as supposedly apply to the NHS also supposedly apply to state schools and LEA's (Possibly also to private schools and universities.) Problem is that when it comes to computers the normal decision making process is sometimes completly ignored.
only about technical issues or about topical discussion on things related to
Some of the things which have originated from the civil service (in this matter) are at least as "technical" as any hardware or software issue....
Open Source? If the former it will become a nurds forum, if the latter it ^^^^^^^^^^^ They could try http://slashdot.org :)
should have far wider appeal.
-- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
I'm sorry that these posts annoyed you. This list is very largely devoted to technical questions surrounding the use of Linux in general and linux in schools in particular, and that's what it's for and what I originally set it up for. However, I think it is reasonable to expect that most readers of the list might be interested in news about the relative status of different operating systems and related 'political' matters. I think that it is naive to believe that one can be in some sense 'neutral' about these matters - if you are interested in Linux and hope to see it being more widely used, then you are also likely to take an interest in the business practices of a company which regards Linux as 'the greatest threat' (words taken from a leaked internal memo) to its dominance of the market and which has a history of using unfair and illegal means to consolidate its market position. As a citizen, I think you might also be likely to take an interest in the way in which your government proposes to spend your money. Which is why I make no apology for contibuting this link also for those who are interested: http://www.observer.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,610133,00.html On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Robb Bloomfield wrote:
Before I click the unsubscribe list, I'd just like to make one further post to the effect that I didn't join this list to read about evangelical tirades against Microsoft and their Business practices. It would be nice if the *Nix commuinty could promote their products and services through advertising and on the basis that what they have is good, without finding every small reason to throw some bother Microsofts way. I am sick of the community watching their every move just so that they can point and laugh when they screw up. Well, Microsoft, you've got my support. I have been a Microsoft user for a long time, and always will be. I have been a *Nix user for a shorter time, but at the present time that may faulter until the whole system learns to grow up. And that includes the O/S as well for reasons that I really don't care to go into now. I'm tired, frankly, and I'm sad.
Thanks for the informative info and strides that have been made into Education so far, lets hope something good does come out of it.
Best regards,
Robb Bloomfield, RLS Network Manager
-- ------------------- Roger Whittaker SuSE Linux Ltd The Kinetic Centre Theobald Street Borehamwood Herts WD6 4PJ ------------------ 020 8387 1482 ------------------ roger@suse.co.uk ------------------
However, those of us in the trade, who follow these events closely, cannot help but feel angry. Not only at the tactics use by MS which nobody can deny are both illegal - as has been proved often - overly aggressive.
What is most distasteful is that its more than simply a case of Microsoft acting illegally. It's that they have done so repeatedly. With little if any punishment. They are almost more like something from a piece of fiction than a real organisation... Let alone that I don't recall a Microsoft candidate standing at the last general election :) IMHO people should be very worried about some unelected forign organisation influencing the UK government. (Even if they didn't have a track record like Microsoft.) -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
Maybe those lurking complainants would enjoy the list more if they participated, perhaps by posting a few questions? Just a thought - please don't flame me for it.
I wouldn't call Robb Bloomfield a "lurker", considering he does appear to have posted quite a few things recently. :) -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
This list is very largely devoted to technical questions surrounding the use of Linux in general and linux in schools in particular, and that's
Issues of things like licencing are however highly complex, if not "technical". Often involving a lot of money, staff time and frustration...
what it's for and what I originally set it up for.
I think that it is naive to believe that one can be in some sense 'neutral' about these matters - if you are interested in Linux and hope to
IME you cannot be "neutral" where you in anyway threaten the interests of a "status quo". Which can equate to not giving them 100% support and advocacy or being tinyist cynical about their actions. Entrenched interests tend to be very big on "if you are not for me you are against me". In other words if you are not totally pro Microsoft (which most likely excludes anyone on this list) then you are already "the enemy" to Microsoft.
see it being more widely used, then you are also likely to take an interest in the business practices of a company which regards Linux as 'the greatest threat' (words taken from a leaked internal memo) to its
IIRC they regard "open source" (especially the GNU licence) in this way.
dominance of the market and which has a history of using unfair and illegal means to consolidate its market position. As a citizen, I think
A history of sucessfully using means which breach both the letter and the spirit of the law.
you might also be likely to take an interest in the way in which your government proposes to spend your money.
As well as *who* they choose to spend it with. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
I'd just like to add my vote for keeping the list traffic as it is - a nice balance of technical support and targeted advocacy. Both are required ingredients in the quest to get Linux into schools. -- Phil Driscoll
On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 08:45:12AM -0000, Robb Bloomfield wrote:
Before I click the unsubscribe list, I'd just like to make one further post to the effect that I didn't join this list to read about evangelical tirades against Microsoft and their Business practices.
Perhaps you'd care to point out exactly why you did subscribe to this list? And why you obviously don't think that the MS monopoly and business practices are relevant to a list discussing the use of linux in schools? Perhaps you'd then further like to explain why you're so sensitive about MS being knocked? What exactly is your business/personal relationship with that firm?
It would be nice if the *Nix commuinty could promote their products and services through advertising and on the basis that what they have is good, without finding every small reason to throw some bother Microsofts way.
It would be money wasted when MS have $37 billion in the bank, a monopoly and the ears of our political masters, don't you think?
I am sick of the community watching their every move just so that they can point and laugh when they screw up.
Well don't watch and unsubscribe to this list since it so obviously offends your sensibilities.
Well, Microsoft, you've got my support. I have been a Microsoft user for a long time, and always will be.
'nuff said. There's obviously no point in you subscribing to a linux list is there then, so why did you subscribe in the first place? A bit of trolling perhaps to pass the time?
I have been a *Nix user for a shorter time, but at the present time that may faulter until the whole system learns to grow up.
Unix has been around for >30 yrs & doesn't need your immature views on maturity.
And that includes the O/S as well for reasons that I really don't care to go into now.
Why not? My guess - because your `reasons' are half-baked, unoriginal and lame. Now prove me wrong.
I'm tired, frankly, and I'm sad.
Go and lie down in a darkened room then, you poor dear.
Thanks for the informative info and strides that have been made into Education so far, lets hope something good does come out of it.
With `help' from self-declared Windows blow-hards like yourself wasting peoples time and posting nothing but nonsense, then nothing good will come of it. Do yourself and everybody else a favour and unsubscribe from this list, I doubt if I'm the only one who's sick of your pathetic whinging. The most pathetic thing being that you've complained about a post from the guy who runs the list. I suggest that in this case Roger's got a rather better idea of what's on-topic then you have with regards the use of linux in schools, and even in the unlikely circumstance that he hasn't, he's got a certain entitlement to post to his own list hasn't he? -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/
Perhaps you'd care to point out exactly why you did subscribe to this list? And why you obviously don't think that the MS monopoly and business practices are relevant to a list discussing the use of linux in schools?
I subscribed to this list because I'm a Linux user, and I'm a Network Manager in a school. Is that okay? As far as the Microsoft monopoly is concerned, no one is forced to use it. There are many schools on this list, and many of them don't use Windows at all. You have a choice, and other people have theirs, so stop slating people who choose to use it.
Perhaps you'd then further like to explain why you're so sensitive about MS being knocked? What exactly is your business/personal relationship with that firm?
Because I'm sick of it. Every where you go around the Open Source community, it's MS did this, and MS did that, and this sucks and that sucks. So don't use it. I personally don't like Turbo Linux, but I don't go round complaining about them and complaining about the people that choose to use it. As far as a business/personal relationship goes, i don't have one, aside from the fact that I seem to be their only satisfied customer...
Well, Microsoft, you've got my support. I have been a Microsoft user for a long time, and always will be.
'nuff said. There's obviously no point in you subscribing to a linux list is there then, so why did you subscribe in the first place? A bit of trolling perhaps to pass the time?
Excuse me?!?!?! This is what offends me the most. Since when has it been written in your scared GPL that Linux users aren't allowed to use Microsoft *as well*. And I've explained why I subscribed, not that it's any of your business....as for trolling, try scrolling through your inbox, you might notice one or two posts by me...
Unix has been around for >30 yrs & doesn't need your immature views on maturity.
Touche it seems...
With `help' from self-declared Windows blow-hards like yourself wasting peoples time and posting nothing but nonsense, then nothing good will come of it.
Ooops, sorry there we go again, yes I use Winows, commit me for christ sake...
The most pathetic thing being that you've complained about a post from the guy who runs the list. I suggest that in this case Roger's got a rather better idea of what's on-topic then you have with regards the use of linux in schools, and even in the unlikely circumstance that he hasn't, he's got a certain entitlement to post to his own list hasn't
Never implied he didn't have. My complaint was that this was a list for Linux in schools, which is what i want to read about, not some crusade against the NHS business practices. As far as the "i'm a tax payer" rant goes, there are many. many things I don't want my taxes going to. Do I get arsey about every single one and let everyone know about?? No. Complaining about Exam boards only accepting Proprietary software is all well and good, it affects us, here and now. What the NHS do with their cash I couldn't give a damn about. To summarise,. it seems I opened a right can of worms yesterday, some offering support, some not, but in the long run, I won't be unsubscribing for now,. as the list seems to be returning to what i like to read, how to use Linux in education...... so thanks Jon, this seems to be your fault.. :) Robb
On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Robb Bloomfield wrote:
Complaining about Exam boards only accepting Proprietary software is all well and good, it affects us, here and now. What the NHS do with their cash I couldn't give a damn about.
*sigh* And I suppose you wouldn't give a damn until the DfES thought "Oh, look how much money the NHS have saved - we should do that" and negotiated a block deal with Microsoft that made all MS products effectively free to individual schools. Some of us like to think about what might affect us in 12 months' time, not just what affects us here and now. Michael
As far as the Microsoft monopoly is concerned, no one is forced to use it.
The big problem is that this is not true. Most of us *are* forced to use it, at least occasionally. You may be aware of many web sites that are difficult or impossible to use without MSIE, perhaps including our Government Gateway. I've changed platform five times in 34 years of active programming, and each time has been fun, the new platform has been better, interesting, useful, more powerful etc. I am now being forced (or I would be if our X terminals didn't work so well) to change to one that is no better and a lot more expensive. That's the problem. And although I know there are people like you who make a genuine choice with knowledge of the alternatives, I feel that the major forces on me are from people completely ignorant of the alternatives - a software supplier I asked hadn't heard of X, and an IT Inspector I had nine years ago said "Unix ... how to you spell that?". We are upset that with current Government plans, more and more people are going to be forced to use it. -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-820527 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
Perhaps you'd care to point out exactly why you did subscribe to this list? And why you obviously don't think that the MS monopoly and business practices are relevant to a list discussing the use of linux in schools?
I subscribed to this list because I'm a Linux user, and I'm a Network Manager in a school. Is that okay? As far as the Microsoft monopoly is concerned, no one is forced to use it. There are many schools on this list,
When it comes to things like SIMS it starts to look close to "forced". -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
As far as the Microsoft monopoly is concerned, no one is forced to use it.
The big problem is that this is not true.
Most of us *are* forced to use it, at least occasionally.
I mentioned SIMS in another post. We have had to spend in the order of 1,000 pounds to migrate our SIMS stuff from a Netware server which has worked fine for the last decade because the Capita don't know how they broke the Netware version of the SQL server FMS6 needs and don't support it anyway. (For those unfamiliar with Netware you usually install software from the server console, rather than by running a Windows install wizard on a workstation.) My other favourate is Alice (our LEA's official replacement for the defunct SIMS library module.) Where the updates have come with notes of the form "you must install this or that Microsoft upgrade before you install our software upgrade, but if it messes up you may be on your own". Where it comes to admin software "forced" can easily sum things up. (Chris is in a somewhat different situation here, since Felsted is a private school.)
You may be aware of many web sites that are difficult or impossible to use without MSIE, perhaps including our Government Gateway.
There is also the likes of http://support.swgfl.org.uk the new version of the support website for a regional broadband consortia. It isn't actually so much a website as an MS JAVA or Active-X application pretending to be a website. Only IE will cope with it... Certainly an issue to myself and Paul Taylor (not sure who else here might be in the South West of England. Also some of the other RBC's have RM as their "ISP" with very similar setups...) -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
Perhaps you'd care to point out exactly why you did subscribe to this list? And why you obviously don't think that the MS monopoly and business practices are relevant to a list discussing the use of linux in schools?
I subscribed to this list because I'm a Linux user, and I'm a Network Manager in a school. Is that okay? As far as the Microsoft monopoly is concerned, no one is forced to use it. There are many schools on this
That is the way it look here too.
CFG
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Evans
When it comes to things like SIMS it starts to look close to "forced".
-- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 09:34:24AM -0000, Robb Bloomfield wrote:
Perhaps you'd care to point out exactly why you did subscribe to this list? And why you obviously don't think that the MS monopoly and business practices are relevant to a list discussing the use of linux in schools?
I subscribed to this list because I'm a Linux user, and I'm a Network Manager in a school. Is that okay? As far as the Microsoft monopoly is concerned, no one is forced to use it.
Yes they are. I'm forced to use it for my university work as the university ships me software that will only run under Windows. Others are forced to use it for a variety of reasons but it all boils down to the monopoly.
There are many schools on this list, and many of them don't use Windows at all. You have a choice, and other people have theirs, so stop slating people who choose to use it.
You don't understand that people *don't* have a choice in a lot of cases and I've never slated those people. For people who do have a choice and choose to use Windows, well that doesn't make sense. Why use something that you have to pay for and then be constrained by onerous licensing terms when you can use something that is free and in most cases is functionally superior?
Perhaps you'd then further like to explain why you're so sensitive about MS being knocked? What exactly is your business/personal relationship with that firm?
Because I'm sick of it. Every where you go around the Open Source community, it's MS did this, and MS did that, and this sucks and that sucks. So don't use it. I personally don't like Turbo Linux, but I don't go round complaining about them and complaining about the people that choose to use it. As far as a business/personal relationship goes, i don't have one, aside from the fact that I seem to be their only satisfied customer...
As I and many others have patiently tried to explain to you, a lot of people don't have a choice - now that sucks. And what sucks even more is when our government by their dodgy procurement procedures ends up forcing MS software even further down our necks.
Well, Microsoft, you've got my support. I have been a Microsoft user for a long time, and always will be.
'nuff said. There's obviously no point in you subscribing to a linux list is there then, so why did you subscribe in the first place? A bit of trolling perhaps to pass the time?
Excuse me?!?!?! This is what offends me the most. Since when has it been written in your scared GPL that Linux users aren't allowed to use Microsoft *as well*. And I've explained why I subscribed, not that it's any of your business....as for trolling, try scrolling through your inbox, you might notice one or two posts by me...
You declared that you will always use Microsoft. That's like me declaring that I will always drive a Vauxhall irrespective of the quality of their products or of other manufacturers - and what's more doing it on a Ford mailing list. Doing that can be only designed to cause offence and what's more shows large amounts of contempt and disrespect for Ford owners to say the least. Trolling - the charge stands.
Unix has been around for >30 yrs & doesn't need your immature views on maturity.
Touche it seems...
With `help' from self-declared Windows blow-hards like yourself wasting peoples time and posting nothing but nonsense, then nothing good will come of it.
Ooops, sorry there we go again, yes I use Winows, commit me for christ sake...
The most pathetic thing being that you've complained about a post from the guy who runs the list. I suggest that in this case Roger's got a rather better idea of what's on-topic then you have with regards the use of linux in schools, and even in the unlikely circumstance that he hasn't, he's got a certain entitlement to post to his own list hasn't
Never implied he didn't have.
Yes you did. Look at who's post your original post followed up, and then look at your comments about not going on about the monopoly and if it continued you'd throw your toys out of your pram and unsubscribe.
My complaint was that this was a list for Linux in schools, which is what i want to read about, not some crusade against the NHS business practices. As far as the "i'm a tax payer" rant goes, there are many. many things I don't want my taxes going to. Do I get arsey about every single one and let everyone know about?? No. Complaining about Exam boards only accepting Proprietary software is all well and good, it affects us, here and now.
As others have pointed out, what a big government department do with their cash in the way of software procurement should be of great concern to those who use IT in schools.
What the NHS do with their cash I couldn't give a damn about.
When taxes rise to fund the NHS, the money gets wasted in buying software that doesn't need to be bought and you find yourself in need of an operation but can't get one; then you'll change your tune and wont be quite so selfish and naively short-sighted. -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/ Barker's Proof: Proofreading is more effective after publication.
On Tuesday 04 December 2001 10:24, Christopher Dawkins wrote:
As far as the Microsoft monopoly is concerned, no one is forced to use it.
We are upset that with current Government plans, more and more people are going to be forced to use it.
Quite, and more and more people are getting fed up enough to want to exercise their right to freedom of speech and protest. The real choice is not to read threads in the group that you don't want to. Its much easier to choose than the OS. -- IanL Open Source - save money - employ more teachers Use Star Office the free replacement for Microsoft Office
participants (12)
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admin2 -
Christopher Dawkins -
Frank Shute -
Gary Stainburn -
Ian -
Mark Evans -
Michael Brown -
Phil Driscoll -
RLH＠hhc.ac.uk -
Robb Bloomfield -
Robert J Gautier -
Roger Whittaker