[opensuse-edu] Too many packages in the patterns?
Hi all Refering to: http://www.opensuse-education.org/mantis/view.php?id=70 it looks like we've too many packages which are installed per default if a user adds the openSUSE-Education Add on (repository or DVD is the same). I like to give a short explanation about the current structure and the "magic" behind the patterns. -----------------------------------[edu-pattern] We currently have the following entry in the content file of the repository: RECOMMENDS pattern:education-full ^^^ this line adds the pattern file with the same name into the software proposal of YaST. you can find that pattern in the directory suse/setup/descr/ in the repository (with 11.0 the format changes and all pattern files are pasted together to one gzip'ed pattern file, so have a look at the 10.2 or 10.3 pattern to get the example: http://www.opensuse-education.org/download/repo/1.0/10.2/suse/setup/descr/ed... You can see: this pattern file _Req_uires the x11 pattern and _Rec_ommends three edu-patterns: education-desktop kids-education-desktop youth-education-desktop Now an overview about the current patterns: 1) education-desktop => Software which can be used in educational enviroments on client site. - kiosktool - sabayon - italc ^^^ generic packages which makes the live of an administrator or teacher easier in schools. 2) kids-education-desktop => Software for small kids (4-10 years) which can be used in educational enviroments on client site. - gcompris - childsplay - pysycache - ... ^^^ "real" packages for the kids 3) youth-education-desktop => Software for youths (11-14 years) which can be used in educational enviroments on client site. - LabPlot - audacity - bluefish - ... ^^^ "real" packages for older children We also have two patterns for server applications right now: - edu-server - kiwi-ltsp ^^^ those patterns are NOT selected by default. People who try to setup a server have to select them manually. All pattern files are created as normal RPM packages and are "developed" using Subversion and a simple directory and file structure. So neither adding packages nor translating the descriptions is a big deal. Some examples and information can be found here: http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Development#The_development_of_pattern_file... -----------------------------------[/edu-pattern] So I want to ask for help! * Please provide some new proposals how we can split the current patterns into smaller parts. * Which patterns and packages should be installed per default? * Which packages should be suggested ? With kind regards, Lars -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
Lars Vogdt wrote:
Hi all
Refering to: http://www.opensuse-education.org/mantis/view.php?id=70
it looks like we've too many packages which are installed per default if a user adds the openSUSE-Education Add on (repository or DVD is the same).
I like to give a short explanation about the current structure and the "magic" behind the patterns. -----------------------------------[edu-pattern] We currently have the following entry in the content file of the repository: RECOMMENDS pattern:education-full ^^^ this line adds the pattern file with the same name into the software proposal of YaST.
you can find that pattern in the directory suse/setup/descr/ in the repository (with 11.0 the format changes and all pattern files are pasted together to one gzip'ed pattern file, so have a look at the 10.2 or 10.3 pattern to get the example: http://www.opensuse-education.org/download/repo/1.0/10.2/suse/setup/descr/ed...
You can see: this pattern file _Req_uires the x11 pattern and _Rec_ommends three edu-patterns: education-desktop kids-education-desktop youth-education-desktop
Now an overview about the current patterns: 1) education-desktop => Software which can be used in educational enviroments on client site. - kiosktool - sabayon - italc ^^^ generic packages which makes the live of an administrator or teacher easier in schools.
2) kids-education-desktop => Software for small kids (4-10 years) which can be used in educational enviroments on client site. - gcompris - childsplay - pysycache - ... ^^^ "real" packages for the kids
3) youth-education-desktop => Software for youths (11-14 years) which can be used in educational enviroments on client site. - LabPlot - audacity - bluefish - ... ^^^ "real" packages for older children
We also have two patterns for server applications right now: - edu-server - kiwi-ltsp ^^^ those patterns are NOT selected by default. People who try to setup a server have to select them manually.
All pattern files are created as normal RPM packages and are "developed" using Subversion and a simple directory and file structure. So neither adding packages nor translating the descriptions is a big deal.
Some examples and information can be found here: http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Development#The_development_of_pattern_file...
-----------------------------------[/edu-pattern]
So I want to ask for help!
* Please provide some new proposals how we can split the current patterns into smaller parts. * Which patterns and packages should be installed per default? * Which packages should be suggested ?
With kind regards, Lars
Lars and the Team, It is great that we are able to "build" so much software for the Education repository. Great work and Thanks to all of you! Now we need to create a real product. I had always thought that we could add questions to the YaST installer to make the "add-on" more useful to school IT people and parents. I would like to suggest that we separate the repository into "folders" that represent the install environments|patterns and age groups already defined (see above) then if it's possible "inject" questions into the existing YaST module or create a new YaST installer for the add-on DVD to install these groups. I'm thinking that putting the DVD into an already running system could "autorun" a web page that contains "One-Click" YMP's and the pattern descriptions. (could this module also figure out which desktop is used and exclude KDE only packages on a Gnome machine or vice versa?) . When installing the OS on a machine, choosing the ADD-ON media and inserting the disk would add a few extra questions to the YaST installer that are the same choices as the YMP's in the autorun. example- Thanks for choosing the openSUSE Education ADD-On! Do you want to build an : education-server y or n kids-education-desktop designed for children ages 4-10 y or n youth-education-desktop designed for children ages 11-14 y or n secondary education-desktop designed for ages 15 - adult y or n Do you want classroom management tools? y or n I believe that the desktop\classroom management tools such as italc should be offered as an individual choice. I don't think it's necessary for us subdivide the groups beyond basic age and desktop. Do we need to create a wiki page that includes a spreadsheet\table that allows us to separate the packeages? example title, gnome, kde, 4-10, 11-14, 15-adult. tuxpaint,yes, , yes, , then we can know for sure which packages to include in each group. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
Hi James
On Mi 06 Aug 2008 05:28:02 CEST James Tremblay
Now we need to create a real product.
I thought we have it for 10.2 and 10.3 already? ;-)
I had always thought that we could add questions to the YaST installer to make the "add-on" more useful to school IT people and parents.
For this we've currently two options: - Use AutoYaST Profiles (someone needs to define them) - Create a new YaST-Module (someone needs to write it)
I would like to suggest that we separate the repository into "folders" that represent the install environments|patterns and age groups already defined (see above)
Sorry, I think I don't understand you here. Why should we break with the current layout? What's wrong with providing RPMs the way openSUSE (and just for example) even Fedora does? That's what patterns are for: group the available RPMs for the user - and hide non-interesting RPMs like libraries. A user should just get an "overview" about the 100 usefull packages like GCompris - and not all >800(!) packages available in the Education repository (like libopenbabel).
then if it's possible "inject" questions into the existing YaST module
possible using AutoYaST or a YaST-Module
or create a new YaST installer for the add-on DVD to install these groups.
possible creating a new YaST module.
I'm thinking that putting the DVD into an already running system could "autorun" a web page that contains "One-Click" YMP's and the pattern descriptions.
HM: nice idea! Haven't tried this bevore. But IMO this doesn't allow translations. So the web page would always be in german... ;-)
(could this module also figure out which desktop is used and exclude KDE only packages on a Gnome machine or vice versa?)
This should be possible during the normal installation. Patterns can enhance other patterns - so a gnome-edu pattern can enhance the gnome-base pattern which is installed if you decide to install the GNOME desktop. But I'm not a real "pattern guru", so for me it looks like the current pattern files need some rework by a real pattern guru... (anyone around here?)
Thanks for choosing the openSUSE Education ADD-On!
Done by the shown license (and if you want) even the Beta-Popup.
Do you want to build an : education-server y or n kids-education-desktop designed for children ages 4-10 y or n youth-education-desktop designed for children ages 11-14 y or n secondary education-desktop designed for ages 15 - adult y or n Do you want classroom management tools? y or n
Hm. If we create an insallable media (which means: remaster the original openSUSE DVD), we can add autoyast profiles in the first boot step, so a user will get Boot from Harddisc Manual Installation Install Kids desktop Install Youth desktop Install Edu Desktop Install Server The help [F1] would give a better description.
I believe that the desktop\classroom management tools such as italc should be offered as an individual choice.
Speaking "pattern language": italc should be "recommended" or at least "suggested" instead "required".
I don't think it's necessary for us subdivide the groups beyond basic age and desktop.
But we should decide which packages should be installed "per default" and which other packages are just "visible" (suggested).
Do we need to create a wiki page that includes a spreadsheet\table that allows us to separate the packeages? example title, gnome, kde, 4-10, 11-14, 15-adult. tuxpaint,yes, , yes, , then we can know for sure which packages to include in each group.
Well: that's something that is missing for over a year now. :-) Please enhance the tables on http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Applications/Desktop with the needed columns. With kind regards, Lars -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
Hey Lars,
Hi James
On Mi 06 Aug 2008 05:28:02 CEST James Tremblay
wrote: Now we need to create a real product.
I thought we have it for 10.2 and 10.3 already? ;-) well we have a really great repository and it's portable too, but the Extis server is a real product ;)
I had always thought that we could add questions to the YaST installer to make the "add-on" more useful to school IT people and parents.
For this we've currently two options: - Use AutoYaST Profiles (someone needs to define them) - Create a new YaST-Module (someone needs to write it)
I would like to suggest that we separate the repository into "folders" that represent the install environments|patterns and age groups already defined (see above)
Sorry, I think I don't understand you here. Why should we break with the current layout? What's wrong with providing RPMs the way openSUSE (and just for example) even Fedora does? That's what patterns are for: group the available RPMs for the user - and hide non-interesting RPMs like libraries. A user should just get an "overview" about the 100 usefull packages like GCompris - and not all >800(!) packages available in the Education repository (like libopenbabel).
Sorry I misspoke here I meant separate the titles into folders according to the patterns for better assignment to the patterns but I saw the wiki again today and I think we are good. I have been looking at the raw repository to much.;)
then if it's possible "inject" questions into the existing YaST module
possible using AutoYaST or a YaST-Module
or create a new YaST installer for the add-on DVD to install these groups.
possible creating a new YaST module.
I'm thinking that putting the DVD into an already running system could "autorun" a web page that contains "One-Click" YMP's and the pattern descriptions.
HM: nice idea! Haven't tried this bevore. But IMO this doesn't allow translations. So the web page would always be in german... ;-)
LOL how about a web page that asks what language you want , then another in that language?
(could this module also figure out which desktop is used and exclude KDE only packages on a Gnome machine or vice versa?)
This should be possible during the normal installation. Patterns can enhance other patterns - so a gnome-edu pattern can enhance the gnome-base pattern which is installed if you decide to install the GNOME desktop. But I'm not a real "pattern guru", so for me it looks like the current pattern files need some rework by a real pattern guru... (anyone around here?)
Thanks for choosing the openSUSE Education ADD-On!
Done by the shown license (and if you want) even the Beta-Popup.
Do you want to build an : education-server y or n kids-education-desktop designed for children ages 4-10 y or n youth-education-desktop designed for children ages 11-14 y or n secondary education-desktop designed for ages 15 - adult y or n Do you want classroom management tools? y or n
Hm. If we create an insallable media (which means: remaster the original openSUSE DVD), we can add autoyast profiles in the first boot step, so a user will get Boot from Harddisc Manual Installation Install Kids desktop Install Youth desktop Install Edu Desktop Install Server
The help [F1] would give a better description.
WOW, I though that would be way to much work and not show the power of "ADD-ON" technology. but ok! and the server could be the EXTIS server plus my three favorite apps! openSIS, Moodle, openbiblio YA? :)
I believe that the desktop\classroom management tools such as italc should be offered as an individual choice.
Speaking "pattern language": italc should be "recommended" or at least "suggested" instead "required".
I don't think it's necessary for us subdivide the groups beyond basic age and desktop.
But we should decide which packages should be installed "per default" and which other packages are just "visible" (suggested).
OK, I would do the TUX series and gcompris for the lower "kids" more according to what the teachers like. color shape word and hand to eye stuff are very important at that age group.
Do we need to create a wiki page that includes a spreadsheet\table that allows us to separate the packeages? example title, gnome, kde, 4-10, 11-14, 15-adult. tuxpaint,yes, , yes, , then we can know for sure which packages to include in each group.
Well: that's something that is missing for over a year now. :-) Please enhance the tables on http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Applications/Desktop with the needed columns. OK I get it , I've been to busy with the openSIS stuff. most days my
head is spinning with all the different requirements of testing an SIS.
With kind regards, Lars
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
I modified the original page http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Applications/Desktop with the extra columns. Do you have all the titles in a spreadsheet or other list? I also made these two pages and if there are a lot more titles we could link over. http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Applications/Desktop/Ages_4-10 http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Applications/Desktop/Ages_12-18 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
On Freitag 08 August 2008 04:19:55 James Tremblay wrote:
I modified the original page http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Applications/Desktop with the extra columns.
Thanks! But why have all apps the "question mark" ? :-)
Do you have all the titles in a spreadsheet or other list?
Currently not. And we need someone who likes to have a look into https://svn.linux-schulserver.de/viewvc/packages/patterns-education-desktop/... and all the subdirectories for packages in the files Prc Psg and Prq and sync them again with the web pages.
I also made these two pages and if there are a lot more titles we could link over. http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Applications/Desktop/Ages_4-10 http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Applications/Desktop/Ages_12-18
hm: the current "Applications/Desktop"-page already has the split between 4-10 and 12-18. But this page currently becomes too big - so my approach was to add "Categories" to the package descriptions, so we can point users to something like: http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Education_Applications All what's needed for this is already described in http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Wiki#Template_for_Application_descriptions I think additional categories like "recommend_age_4-12" and "recommend_age_12-18" are a good idea. Means: every current and future package description needs one of [[Category:recommend_age_4-12]] or [[Category:recommend_age_12-18]] any volunteers to add this to the current descriptions? :-) With kind regards, Lars -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
On Freitag 08 August 2008 00:06:44 James Tremblay wrote:
Now we need to create a real product.
I thought we have it for 10.2 and 10.3 already? ;-)
well we have a really great repository and it's portable too, but the Extis server is a real product ;)
Well, you can pay the openSUSE-Education Team for releasing the add on if you like... :-)
how about a web page that asks what language you want , then another in that language?
should be possible. Please provide a template.
Hm. If we create an insallable media (which means: remaster the original openSUSE DVD), we can add autoyast profiles in the first boot step, so a user will get Boot from Harddisc Manual Installation Install Kids desktop Install Youth desktop Install Edu Desktop Install Server
The help [F1] would give a better description.
WOW, I though that would be way to much work and not show the power of "ADD-ON" technology.
You're right: thats a bit away from the "Add-on" technology - but already possible. :-)
but ok! and the server could be the EXTIS server plus my three favorite apps! openSIS, Moodle, openbiblio YA? :)
If you can persuade Peter Grill from the EXTIS Team to release the OSS-Apps under GPL....
OK, I would do the TUX series and gcompris for the lower "kids" more according to what the teachers like. color shape word and hand to eye stuff are very important at that age group.
done in the patterns: Suggested (not installed per default, but shown): anagramarama childsplay childsplay_plugins childsplay_plugins_lfc enigma littlewizard MultiplicationStation plutimikation pysycache pysycache-cartoon pysycache-photographies pysycache-themes-click pysycache-themes-move python-visual Recommended (normally installed but can be deselected): gcompris tuxmath tuxpaint tuxtype Lars -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
participants (2)
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James Tremblay
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Lars Vogdt