[Bug 905351] New: openSUSE NVIDIA Bumblebee documentation confusing, possibly wrong
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 Bug ID: 905351 Summary: openSUSE NVIDIA Bumblebee documentation confusing, possibly wrong Classification: openSUSE Product: openSUSE.org Version: unspecified Hardware: Other OS: Other Status: NEW Severity: Normal Priority: P5 - None Component: Documentation Assignee: fs@suse.com Reporter: sb56637@gmail.com QA Contact: adrian@suse.com Found By: --- Blocker: --- Hi, I don't own a system with discrete graphics (dual graphics Intel + Nvidia) but they are fairly common, and I'm trying to research the topic in case I need to help a user that is switching to openSUSE. https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_drivers
"If you use bumblebee technology on your laptop also proceed by the guide (http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_Bumblebee) to ensure your setup is finished."
I don't think this part is right. It makes it sound like the regular Nvidia drivers should be installed first, and then proceed to install the Bumblebee stuff. I've read in several places that the regular Nvidia drivers should *NOT* be installed on a dual-graphics system, and they can even break the X server: https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/502110-Nvidia-and-Bumblebee-doubt...
You must use the NVIDIA-bumblebee package NOT the regular package. The reqular package will break the Intel driver [...] Important DO NOT install the regular NVIDIA drivers. If you do you must totally remove before going to bumblebee.
https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_Bumblebee#Install_NVIDIA_driver
"If you are using any released version of openSUSE proceed by guide and install required drivers there.
Otherwise if you are using Factory or simply do not trust the guide above you can use the driver provided in bumblebee repo"
This also sounds incorrect, from what I've read. Additionally, the Bumblebee page is very ambiguous as to whether the open source Nouveau driver can also be used with Bumblebee. https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_Bumblebee#Procedure
"Check /etc/modprobe.d/50-blacklist.conf and make sure the line "blacklist nouveau" is present (even if you plan to use nouveau driver)."
So, is it possible or not to use Nouveau + Bumblebee? If so, it would be good to have two main sections: 1. How to configure Bumblebee with the open source Nouveau driver 2. How to configure Bumblebee with the proprietary Nvidia driver Thanks for looking into this! -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 Frank Sundermeyer <fs@suse.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEW |RESOLVED CC| |ncutler@suse.com Resolution|--- |FIXED --- Comment #1 from Frank Sundermeyer <fs@suse.com> --- Thanks for your report. Bumblebee and the NVIDIA drivers _may_ be installed together as described in SDB:NVIDIA Bumblebee. This is necessary if you want to play games, e.g. via Steam. However, when not wanting to play games, installing the NVIDIA driver is not necessary. Therefore we added the following disclainer to the article: If you don't plan to use the discrete graphics adapter at all (i.e., you want to run the Intel driver all the time), you can safely skip installing the NVidia drivers. Bumblebee will use the nouveau driver for its own internal purposes. For the future I'd like to encourage you to either directly edit the articles on en.opensuse.org if you find errors, or to use the "Discussion" to discuss matters with the page's authors. Editing the wiki pages is even easier than reporting bugs (and only requires the same login credentials as bugzilla). Using the discussion page of an article ensures that you can directly talk to the authors of the page. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #2 from Nathan Cutler <ncutler@suse.com> --- Just to add to what Frank wrote: The instructions on the wiki have been tested with openSUSE 13.1, so they really do work. That said, this is an area where folks commonly get themselves into trouble by "over-experimenting", i.e. installing lots of stuff over other stuff, compiling drivers from source, etc. without knowing what they are doing. They make a mess of their system and then they come to the forum and start asking for help. When trying to help people, it might be worth mentioning that the wiki instructions were tested with on a fresh, clean, vanilla installation. As for using Bumblebee with the nouveau driver, for this you just skip the "Install NVIDIA driver" section completely. The driver gets installed automatically as a dependency. This has been tested as well. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #3 from S. B. <sb56637@gmail.com> --- Thanks to both of you for the reply! I edited the wiki to make it a bit more clear. Please let me know if you think this is better: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ == Procedure == === Bumblebee with open source graphics drivers === If you prefer to use graphics drivers that are directly provided by openSUSE, Bumblebee can be configured to use only the main Intel graphics card with its open source driver. This option does not require installing the proprietary Nvidia driver, and is possibly preferable for users of Tumbleweed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Later I also made the following change: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ === OPTIONAL: Install NVIDIA driver === If you want to use the advanced features of the secondary Nvidia graphics card, you can install the proprietary Nvidia driver as follows: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Is there any way to use the more advanced 3D features of the Nouveau driver with Bumblebee? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #4 from Nathan Cutler <ncutler@suse.com> --- No, that's not accurate. Nouveau is the open-source driver for NVIDIA, not for Intel. For Bumblebee to work, you need *both* drivers. But the end user doesn't need to worry about this, because they are installed/activated automatically. Therefore, I think the earlier version (before your edits) was sufficient. Also, your edits don't make it clear that the open source driver option is basically useless for anyone who wants to actually use the discrete graphics adapter, which is the majority. Typically if someone is trying to install Bumblebee it's because they want to get the most out of their discrete Nvidia graphics card, which means using the proprietary driver. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #5 from Nathan Cutler <ncutler@suse.com> --- P.S. I would encourage you to hold off on making edits until you have actually tested the procedures you want to write about. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #6 from S. B. <sb56637@gmail.com> --- Hi Nathan, thanks for the reply. I know that Nouveau is for nVidia, is there something that I wrote that indicates to the contrary? I don't own any systems with discrete graphics, so I can't test this. But the biggest complaint I have seen from users that install Linux on a dual-graphics system is overheating, so many users will want to install Bumblebee just to effectively disable the Nvidia card and stick with the Intel graphics. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #7 from Nathan Cutler <ncutler@suse.com> --- Ah, sorry - I misread. Still, I would definitely remove this bit: ", and is possibly preferable for users of Tumbleweed."
From a writing style perspective, it is problematic. Even if you remove the weasel word "possibly", it is not a true statement. Running open-source drivers only is only preferable for users who never use their laptop to play games. And judging from the comments on my blog, this is not most people!
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #8 from S. B. <sb56637@gmail.com> ---
Still, I would definitely remove this bit:
", and is possibly preferable for users of Tumbleweed."
Sure, removed. Thanks for the suggestions Nathan. One more thing from the already existing instructions: "Then enable bbswitch and dkms (if necessary)" When would dkms be "necessary"? When the proprietary Nvidia driver is in use? It would be good to specify this too. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 Wolfgang Bauer <wbauer@tmo.at> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|RESOLVED |REOPENED CC| |wbauer@tmo.at Resolution|FIXED |--- --- Comment #9 from Wolfgang Bauer <wbauer@tmo.at> --- (In reply to S. B. from comment #0)
https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_drivers
"If you use bumblebee technology on your laptop also proceed by the guide (http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_Bumblebee) to ensure your setup is finished."
I don't think this part is right. It makes it sound like the regular Nvidia drivers should be installed first, and then proceed to install the Bumblebee stuff. I've read in several places that the regular Nvidia drivers should *NOT* be installed on a dual-graphics system, and they can even break the X server: https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/502110-Nvidia-and-Bumblebee- doubts?p=2672931#post2672931
You must use the NVIDIA-bumblebee package NOT the regular package. The reqular package will break the Intel driver [...] Important DO NOT install the regular NVIDIA drivers. If you do you must totally remove before going to bumblebee.
https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_Bumblebee#Install_NVIDIA_driver
"If you are using any released version of openSUSE proceed by guide and install required drivers there.
Otherwise if you are using Factory or simply do not trust the guide above you can use the driver provided in bumblebee repo"
This also sounds incorrect, from what I've read.
Sorry for reopening this report, but these concerns have not been addressed really IMHO. AFAIK installing the standard nvidia packages breaks intel's OpenGL support, as it replaces some of Mesa's libraries (and Xorg's libglx) with its own incompatible versions. And not even installing bumblebee can fix that. So is it really a good idea to even suggest to install those packages in the "official" documentation? Shouldn't only installing nvidia-bumblebee be proposed? Please note that I do not have any experience with Bumblebee or Optimus myself, I never even used an Optimus system yet. But I do know that many users ask for help in the forums because their Xorg doesn't start any more after installing the nvidia driver on their Optimus system, or that they cannot run any OpenGL applications on the intel chip. Please forgive me if I'm completely wrong though. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #10 from Frank Sundermeyer <fs@suse.com> ---
AFAIK installing the standard nvidia packages breaks intel's OpenGL support, as > it replaces some of Mesa's libraries (and Xorg's libglx) with its own incompatible versions. And not even installing bumblebee can fix that.
So is it really a good idea to even suggest to install those packages in the "official" documentation? Shouldn't only installing nvidia-bumblebee be proposed?
Please note that I do not have any experience with Bumblebee or Optimus myself, > I never even used an Optimus system yet.
But I do know that many users ask for help in the forums because their Xorg doesn't start any more after installing the nvidia driver on their Optimus system, or that they cannot run any OpenGL applications on the intel chip.
Please forgive me if I'm completely wrong though.
See comment #2: * The nvidia driver is needed when wanting to play 3D games e.g. via Steam * for normal desktop use installing nvidia is not needed and therefore not recommended Whatsmore, when the nvidia driver is installed, why should one want to run OpenGL applications on the Intel chip, when doing the same on nvidia--which has far better "3D power"--is possible? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #11 from Wolfgang Bauer <wbauer@tmo.at> --- (In reply to Frank Sundermeyer from comment #10)
* The nvidia driver is needed when wanting to play 3D games e.g. via Steam
Yes, of course. But nvidia-bumblebee is the nvidia driver as well, just packaged differently so it doesn't break intel's OpenGL. Actually it downloads the .run installer from nvidia when you install it, extracts the files and copies them to the system. My point was that the instructions should not suggest to install the standard nvidia driver packages from the nvidia repo. It should only mention nvidia-bumblebee as optional possibility.
* for normal desktop use installing nvidia is not needed and therefore not recommended
Ok. But the instruction do not mention anywhere that it is not recommended.
Whatsmore, when the nvidia driver is installed, why should one want to run OpenGL applications on the Intel chip, when doing the same on nvidia--which has far better "3D power"--is possible?
But what about the "normal desktop use" then? Do you think people won't use any desktop any more when they choose to install the nvidia driver? The desktop environment will still run on the intel chip with Bumblebee even with the nvidia driver installed, and so will all applications that you start normally. To run applications on the nvidia chip you have to explicitely run them via optirun/primusrun AIUI. GNOME will not even start without working OpenGL AFAIK. And KDE's desktop effects are more sophisticated with OpenGL. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 Nathan Cutler <ncutler@suse.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Flags| |needinfo?(wbauer@tmo.at) --- Comment #12 from Nathan Cutler <ncutler@suse.com> --- Wolfgang has a point here. I edited https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_drivers in an attempt to address it. Wolfgang, what do you think? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #13 from S. B. <sb56637@gmail.com> --- I might be wrong too, because like Wolfgang I also don't own any Optimus hardware. However, it appears there is now conflicting advice between the Nvida page and the Bumblebee page: https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_drivers
If you have Optimus hardware, do not use the drivers from this page. Instead, proceed to the Bumblebee HOWTO.
OK, proceeding to the Bumblebee HOWTO... https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_Bumblebee
If you are using any released version of openSUSE proceed by the guide (https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_drivers) and install required drivers there.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #14 from Nathan Cutler <ncutler@suse.com> --- OK, that inconsistency is now hopefully fixed. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 Wolfgang Bauer <wbauer@tmo.at> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Flags|needinfo?(wbauer@tmo.at) |needinfo? --- Comment #15 from Wolfgang Bauer <wbauer@tmo.at> --- (In reply to Nathan Cutler from comment #12)
Wolfgang has a point here. I edited
https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_drivers
in an attempt to address it. Wolfgang, what do you think?
Sorry for the delay. According to my knowledge, this should be fine now. Thank you! Just one more nit-pick: It tells to check /etc/modprobe.d/50-blacklist.conf whether "blacklist nouveau" is present. But the nvidia-bumblebee package puts the blacklist to /etc/modprobe.d/51-blacklist-nouveau.conf since bug#896630 was fixed. If that blacklist is necessary even with nouveau (is it? I don't know), this should probably be done in the bumblebee package itself instead? If that's the case I would reopen the other bug report and requesting that. This is not directly related to this bug report, but it does of course affect the documentation as well so I'll leave this open for now, with NEEDINFO from anyone, as I have no idea whether the blacklist is needed. Btw, as I noticed, the "official" nvidia driver packages do _not_ activate their libglx any more on Optimus systems (on 13.2 and up at least): https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff/X11:Drivers:Video/nvidia-gfxG03?linkrev=base&rev=94 So they shouldn't break intel's GLX any more. But GLX on nvidia still won't, as Bumblebee/optirun tries to load it from a different place. You'd have to manually create a symlink, then this will indeed work apparently. Something similar apparently would have to be done about libGL as well (or you could set LD_LIBRARY_PATH accordingly so nvidia's libGL is found), but I do not know more details. See this forum thread for more information if you are interested: https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/503576-Xlib-extension-quot-GLX-qu... -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 --- Comment #16 from Wolfgang Bauer <wbauer@tmo.at> --- PS, another thing just sprang to my mind: The nvidia driver 343.x as installed by nvidia-bumblebee dropped support for anything below GTX 420. Maybe a note about this should be added to the documentation as well. Especially back when nvidia-bumblebee was updated to 343.x we had a few reports in the forums from users with GTX 2xx and 3xx about their optirun suddenly breaking. Personally I think it would be a good idea to add a nvidia-bumblebee-legacy (or similarly named) package to the Bumblebee repo that installs 340.xx, but that's of course also stuff for a separate bug report if necessary. ;) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351 http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905351#c17 Wolfgang Bauer <wbauer@tmo.at> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|REOPENED |RESOLVED Resolution|--- |FIXED Flags|needinfo? | --- Comment #17 from Wolfgang Bauer <wbauer@tmo.at> --- Ok, I think we can close this again now... -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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