https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c2 Aaron Bockover changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |abockover@novell.com --- Comment #2 from Aaron Bockover 2010-10-26 17:13:37 UTC ---

From the Wikipedia article [1] on RTFM (which stands for "Read The Fucking Manual" just so we're all clear here):

"Critics say that frequent users of the phrase (or similar variants) are simply expressing élitism, and that their attitude drives away newcomers without helping them. Their time could better be spent adding the question and answer to a FAQ, pointing the user to a helpful website, or simply not responding.[6] They point out that RTFM is often used when it is not even clear which manual their correspondent should be reading.[7] One of the most frequent criticisms of the open source community is lack of friendly support for newcomers. The Ubuntu Forums and LinuxQuestions.org, for instance, have instituted "no RTFM" policies to promote a welcoming atmosphere" [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM#Use_and_overuse -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c4 Pascal Bleser changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |pascal.bleser@opensuse.org --- Comment #4 from Pascal Bleser 2010-10-26 20:53:44 UTC --- Must be a cultural thing, doesn't seem to shock anyone else. With a grain of salt, I'd rather have rtfm.o.o back :) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c6 Frank Sundermeyer changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |jdsn@novell.com, | |jw@novell.com --- Comment #6 from Frank Sundermeyer 2010-10-27 08:13:59 UTC --- There are 31 hits for rtfm.opensuse.org on Google rather than 153.000... . CC'ing Jürgen and Jens Daniel who have set up the server. IMHO If RTFM is considered rude, we shouldn't use it anymore. But I would not go so far as to get rid of the DNS entry, since rtfm.o.o has already been announced. Let's keep it as a server alias to avoid dead links and use (doc|docs).opensuse.org in the future. docs.opensuse.org should definitely be an alias to doc.o.o - Jürgen or Jens Daniel, could you take care of that? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c8 J. Daniel Schmidt changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |mrueckert@novell.com --- Comment #8 from J. Daniel Schmidt 2010-10-27 09:40:27 UTC --- Btw. did you all really read the page and found out what rtfm really means? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c10 --- Comment #10 from Juergen Weigert 2010-10-27 11:04:27 UTC --- Just removed the offending acronym from the top of the webpage. It is only found once at the very bottom in a friendly note, hinting at the original spirit. This note shall also go away soon. Nelson, I am at loss here. Any language to pull it out of that dark corner is appreciated -- but seeing the current environment, there is no short term perspective. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c12 J. Daniel Schmidt changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |hvogel@novell.com --- Comment #12 from J. Daniel Schmidt 2010-10-27 12:32:17 UTC --- Ok, I will take care of moving the domain names accordingly and create a blank page with a short notice that will be on rtfm.opensuse.org for a week or two. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c14 J. Daniel Schmidt changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|ASSIGNED |RESOLVED Resolution| |FIXED --- Comment #14 from J. Daniel Schmidt 2010-10-27 16:44:04 UTC --- rtfm.o.o now shows a white page with a link to doc.o.o docs.o.o is configured but the DNS entry needs to be made - its already requested, waiting for ACS to do it. Thus closing as fixed. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c16 --- Comment #16 from Aaron Bockover 2010-10-27 17:40:26 UTC --- Thanks everyone for working to resolve this. I'm not personally offended by it, and understand and appreciate the spirit of the acronym. However, I simply didn't think we can take any chance of offending or alienating anyone that is a part of or could be a part of the openSUSE project. It's just not worth it. I'd like to see openSUSE adopt some more formal guidelines around avoiding/culling the use of terminology along the lines of "RTFM." I'm all for free speech and everything, am probably one of the most liberal and politically incorrect people you'll ever meet, but I think it's in the project's best interest to play it neutral. Thanks again! -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c18 --- Comment #18 from Stephen Shaw 2010-10-27 18:18:16 UTC --- @Juergen yes, sorry. Mostly meant to be humorous. I do hope that it becomes a very good and useful service. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c20 --- Comment #20 from Andreas Jaeger 2010-10-28 13:05:36 UTC --- Pascal, please read the thread started at: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-gnome/2010-10/msg00037.html and especially: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-gnome/2010-10/msg00038.html -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c22 Bryen Yunashko changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |bryeny@mi-tech.com --- Comment #22 from Bryen Yunashko 2010-10-28 14:20:30 UTC --- (In reply to comment #21)

AJ and no matter what it should have been handled by the board and not you. the board would have been the responsible group for it. given that bryen saw it on the gnome ML, he should have asked for a quick board meeting and solve the issue there.

As this was an issue that was only raised a few days ago, this hardly constitutes a reason for me, as a board member, to call a quick meeting. The board serves as an arbitrator of last resorts when other parties are unable to come to a resolution, not as a decision-maker for everything that goes on out there. Neither am I convinced, that given the history of the board, that we would have answered this question in short period of time. It would only have served to allow disputes to fuel before we finally addressed the matter. Should this have been discussed in a more open venue before deciding? Possibly. But I have to say that I commend the quick movement to end this dispute before it got too nasty. The last thing this community needs is a dispute over a four-letter acronym. As for the quick decision making, couldn't the same argument be made for having instituted the use of a controversial acronymn in the first place? Shouldn't the parties involved have openly asked for opinions before using RTFM? A decision was made by a specific party that affects the project's perception as a whole and a decision was also made by a specific party to quickly end it. I'm sorry, but we have more important things to do than haggle about something that shouldn't have been introduced in the first place. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c24 --- Comment #24 from Nelson Marques 2010-10-28 17:01:03 UTC --- Anyone minds that I conduct a qualitative study amongst the community to check for the real impact of "RTFM" and not just having such decision based on allegations made out of thin air? Like Pascal stated, there are clearly cultural issues, and our strength is within Europe, not in the Americans, where it's clearly Fedora grounds. I actually am starting to have doubts if we will evolve as a community in the future following such narrow 'corporate' directives on a _community_. Are we a community or a corporation? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c26 --- Comment #26 from Aaron Bockover 2010-10-28 18:06:51 UTC ---

Just because you, every other *existing* member of openSUSE, and I are not offended by the term...

Correction: I meant "may not be offended" here. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c28 --- Comment #28 from Stephen Shaw 2010-10-28 18:56:36 UTC --- I think its an absurd stretch to claim this is a Novell and not a community thing. Are Novell employees to assume that they are excluded from being a part of the community because of the company they work for? A *big* thanks from me to Aaron for filing this. As a community member I'm opposed to this. To me it seems like a crazy risk for a distribution to take that is currently working on a strategy to welcome more people into the project. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649354#c30 --- Comment #30 from Nelson Marques 2010-10-28 23:10:38 UTC --- (In reply to comment #25)

...

Anyone minds that I conduct a qualitative study amongst the community to check for the real impact of "RTFM" and not just having such decision based on allegations made out of thin air?

Nelson: this makes no sense - this idea is inherently open to bias results - results that I would not argue may largely be in favor of or indifferent to "RTFM."

Aaron, It makes all sense to understand our users, not only for this case, but even to understand to which outputs from us they are looking for. This is not a case of "RTFM" on it's raw and pure state, which is negative for all users, but nevertheless, the main reason why such claim/dispute has arisen is from the fact that some of us actually find it interesting, and I personally believe it could be used to benefit us if we were able to neutralize it's negative payload. Indifference is interesting, and thats it stands as an opportunity to us, doesn't need to be necessarily a threat ;)

Instead of saying, "we are strong in Europe, not in the Americas" and accepting this, why are we not saying, "we should be stronger in the Americas and other regions?"

I'm sorry, wrong wording probably. It's not about "Europe vs Americas", it's about resources. The very own measure for this or any community to work is a good understanding of our resources. People are different and I would say it would have for sure some benefit to have _our_ message culturally adapted for both realities, and not let one get in the way for the other. This is clearly the case.

If you conduct a survey that is catered to a demographic whose intention is to justify something that affects another demographic not equally represented in the survey, the survey is meaningless - unless of course the openSUSE community feels it needs to reach no farther beyond European borders. Please let me know if this is the case.

My idea was actually to run it freely through the forum. I don't mean the heavy hardcore stuff, just place a nice introductory message, asking people to be reasonable and always consider that the person who stands next to them might not think the same, which could pretty much be actually the guy writing the manuals... and how far can we go without hurting their feelings, and how far would they understand and/or find it attractive. Eventually even from a marketing scope, we could actually find very useful stuff there for our communication. You might disagree with me, feel free to share your concerns on private, I'm not going against. It's from different points that sometimes when we find a convergence, we can probably achieve something new and innovative. I don't to harm the community, please be mindful of that. But at some point, you need to be trendy and find your own direction, which is tightly connected to our user base. One person felling offended is close enough for me to step back, that's what I'm doing. But please consider other options as well, as promoting your contributors under the same scope they have intented. In a way, if you blame "RTFM" which was presented as "Read This Fine Manual" from the authors, it's like you're not caring for their message, and in a way might provide motivational issues. I'd rather have people submiting lots of "Fine Manuals" because they find it trendy or geeky, than having no one actually cares. Like you will state later on your email, people will be caring for the contents, not the site name ;)

My issue is not from thin air. If you look at the other distributions with flourishing distribution communities (e.g. Fedora and Ubuntu), they have adopted guidelines to avoid this kind of terminology. We should too.

I apologize for having used that expression, but even my statements without proper substance are also made of thin air, actually I was expecting someone to use it as well against me. I had that covered already btw. Want a suggestion? As the Board said earlier they have a strong complicated task with it, and they can't and actually shouldn't be bothered with this, I would probably propose the following: create an ethical/cultural committee.

...

I actually am starting to have doubts if we will evolve as a community in the future following such narrow 'corporate' directives on a _community_. Are we a community or a corporation?

This has nothing to do with a corporation. This has everything to do with minimizing the risk of alienating and offending *potential newcomers to the project.* Just because you, every other *existing* member of openSUSE, and I are not offended by the term does not mean that someone else who is *not yet* a member won't be. Why is it acceptable to take that risk? Why are we to be exclusionary because of differences. This is what offends me the most, and I want no part of it.

Now, out of thin air (personal view): What are newcomers looking for? If they came to openSUSE, why they did they came here and not to Fedora for example. This is pretty fair to ask. Users, specially outside the FOSS spectrum are pretty trendy. There is a differential factor there somewhere... That's where we probably could have a better way to build the loyalty of our users, by diferentiation, and not by playing according to the traditional rules. We need to know exactly how our users would take such things... without surveying or field testing, we can't actually be sure if we are right or wrong. It's this window I would like to keep open.

On the contrary, I am having doubts we will ever evolve as a community in the future by following such narrow-minded exclusionary behavior.

What about if the community thing that we are the narrow ones, or that we make it narrow and they move on into other waters? That's also a risk we are assuming.

If you think I filed this bug on behalf of Novell, you are very mistaken. Likewise you may find that the resolution of this bug was not on behalf of Novell, though I understand how that may appear.

No, the idea I got from a conference talk in Nuremberg was actually the opposite, and I do think the other way. What I meant, or tried to anyway... is that, as a community we don't need to be so traditional or corporate oriented in this cases. Maybe they expect Microsoft and Oracle to be like that... maybe they think that within our 'freedom' speech we are actually more open to geeky trends and more social. I think it all comes from the context, it's different if you come to me and say I'm an 'idiot' (or something worst) as friend of old or as a newcomer. In way if we present ourselves as a bunch of cool geeky people who have our own vision about this and there, probably they won't buy the negative load that 'RTFM' has and they might buy actually the version of the original authors... 'this fine manual', which was produced with care... they are even smart enough to probably see we are joking about it. Now, if you want to present all of this from within a corporate model, sure, it makes all sense that you do it traditionally, but in this case, you are a corporation and not a community. So, we now manipulate and enforce rules to shape the 'true' face of the community? Because many people are worried now with the 'image' but they aren't as worried with some of the faces of the community which actually simpathize with 'RTFM', the original view of their creators and contributors.

I see nothing wrong with the way I brought this to attention - in my mind this was a bug. I used openSUSE's bug tracking tool (maybe we should have a separate one, not owned by Novell - I'd *love* that!) to raise an issue about openSUSE.

Everyone's opinion is welcomed, and thanks for taking time to try to understand me. You and everyone else have my sincere respect. I see this as a differentiation point that can be explored. I do see probably benefits to take the risk, and I do even agree that all official communication should be done under 'doc(s)' or 'documentation', we all agree with this. I'm just against removing the 'rtfm' which can be explored and bring aditional value, even without promoting it and will for sure make of openSUSE more attractive because we work our users contributions to be more attractive and because we stimulate the very same. As you notice, some of us are against, others aren't. In the end you will always end up by neglecting someone. Having both with proper support on communication, wouldn't harm. I once more, make clear, official communication should be done under a friendly term (also boring for most, and in the end, the message is the same... don't bug me and read the docs...). Aaron, I apologize, it wasn't my intention to imply in any how a relation between Novell or Novell's employees. Bad wording, my thoughts were on corporate models that have more inflexible rules. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.