Hi all, On Dec 6, 2012, at 7:06 AM, DuBois, Scott L. wrote:

I just want to say that I read this thread and I think Andy is off to a great start.

I agree. Revitalizing the community through new membership and leadership is an ongoing process, a living thing. Nobody is perfect, everything can improve - the only way to improve is by making mistakes and learning from them. If we do all of this while communicating with everyone in the community we all learn and grow. One more thing to remember: there is no reason to take anyone's actions or words personally. Kenneth Wimer -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

From what I understand, this is the first time we are attempting to do our wallpaper contest this way and for him to step forward and provide an outline as well defined is a significant investment. It may not be perfect by some people's standards or exactly the way that some feel it should be, but it is something and I think it is a good start in the right direction. Next release it will be better and so on. When embarking into uncharted territory we never know how the results will be until we reach our destination. In the end, we learn from what went good and what went bad and improve on that. Right now we are concentrating on making sure it is fun and easy for more people to contribute their art work for consideration as the primary release work. Not everything submitted was solely focused on that, but who cares? We're having fun, contributing and being creative!

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Andy (anditosan) wrote:

...

Wallpaper Contest Guidelines

This is an official announcement of the wallpaper contest for openSUSE 12.3.

Submissions are made to artwork team's flickr page

http://www.flickr.com/groups/opensuse-artwork/

The format can be any image style you would like. Created with GIMP or Inkscape, or an original photo. They can all be considered. If the submission is not made in the Flickr page, it cannot be counted. If you don't have a Flickr page, ask any of our team members to help you submit your image.

Given the amount of submissions so far this year(152 images so far), the artwork team will work on the selection of images in the following way. Our team members will be in charge of selecting the final 10 images for the selection of the rest of the community. We will present the 10 finalist images.

Each voting member form our team will receive 10 points. These 10 points will be distributed across the images that such member selects as his/her best ones. You only have 10 points and nothing more, and you will run out of points after distributing those points across different images.

If you are a contributor the artwork team and also the contest images, you cannot vote for yourself. The idea being to go out find other possible contributors to the team and there is no feeling that we pushing only for our own interests. To also show fairness to those who may be trying to be part of our team.

For example

Image 1: 3 pts

Image 2: 5 pts

Image 3: 2 pts

TOTAL: 10 pts

In order to vote you have to comment under the image in question on Flickr. You will add the comment saying:

User X Comment: +1, +2, +5, etc

We will be in charge also of counting the results.

If you decide to change your mind about a particular image and would like to withdraw your points, you can do so by deleting the comment you made on a particular image.

Additional information can be found here https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Wallpapers_12.3

The contest will end on December 24^th of 2012. After 1 week, December 10^th the finalists selection will end leaving the remaining 2 weeks for the community as a whole to vote on the last 10 images.

The current members who replied to the artwork team list are

Eugene Trounev Richard Brown Marcus Moeller Michael Fox Carlos Ribeiro Scott Dubois Marcel Kühlhorn Raiko Matovic Victor HCK James Mason

If there is someone else who would like to participate and did not get the former email confirming your presence during this process, please email me at anditosan@opensuse.org and I will add you as long as the first selection week is not over.

PS: There are details that may have escaped this revision, please write back to define them and update them.

Thank you everyone!

Andy (anditosan)

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-- God bless ! Scott DuBois www.ROGUEHORSE.com openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Dec 6, 2012, at 9:24 AM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Hi all,

...

On Dec 6, 2012, at 7:06 AM, DuBois, Scott L. wrote:

...

I just want to say that I read this thread and I think Andy is off to a great start.

I agree. Revitalizing the community through new membership and leadership is an ongoing process, a living thing. Nobody is perfect, everything can improve - the only way to improve is by making mistakes and learning from them. If we do all of this while communicating with everyone in the community we all learn and grow.

But we should communicate in advance, too ;)

At least on topics where we could expect that not everyone agrees on.

Right, I agree with this as well. We have to discuss the way forward together (and preferably in advance or it only leads to even longer discussion than would have been the case to begin with). Kenneth Wimer -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

Hi andi.

wrote:

...

On 2012-12-03 18:28:05 (-0700), Andy (anditosan) wrote:

...

Wallpaper Contest Guidelines

Hi Andy. Sorry to be late to pick this thread up, but it's needed, I think.

...

This is an official announcement of the wallpaper contest for openSUSE 12.3.

I'd like to stop you right here. If you call a one-man-action that has not been discussed with the other contributors of the artwork team an "official announcement", there is clearly an issue.

No problem. Please take the contest in your team's hands and run it. It really feels like a one man's show because you have not been part of the conversations taken at the artwork team's chat. I can't help with that. But if you don't like it, I can understand. I called it official mostly because it is the artwork team that runs the contest. If it was not official, then what is?

If it has not been discussed in an official meeting or on the mailinglist it did not happen at all. Please point out the logs to the meeting where this has been discussed.

We are the only team that runs a wallpaper contest. If we don't call it official, then who does? If someone else does, I wouldn't have any problems with that. As long as we run a contest where our members can be involved.

You are the one who has run a wallpaper contest. I have clearly stated several times that I only support that kind of contest for supplementary wallpapers and only with clear guidelines (no logo modifications ...) Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Dec 6, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Hi andi.

...

wrote:

...

On 2012-12-03 18:28:05 (-0700), Andy (anditosan) wrote:

...

Wallpaper Contest Guidelines

Hi Andy. Sorry to be late to pick this thread up, but it's needed, I think.

...

This is an official announcement of the wallpaper contest for openSUSE 12.3.

I'd like to stop you right here. If you call a one-man-action that has not been discussed with the other contributors of the artwork team an "official announcement", there is clearly an issue.

No problem. Please take the contest in your team's hands and run it. It really feels like a one man's show because you have not been part of the conversations taken at the artwork team's chat. I can't help with that. But if you don't like it, I can understand. I called it official mostly because it is the artwork team that runs the contest. If it was not official, then what is?

If it has not been discussed in an official meeting or on the mailinglist it did not happen at all.

Please point out the logs to the meeting where this has been discussed.

First off, if there is blame to go around you can give me a big helping of it. From my experience leading an artwork community, I suggested several ways of improvement which cost nothing more than a little bit of work selecting what we want. There is a difference between a contest for *the* wallpaper and a contest for wallpaperS for the next release. I in no way intended this to become a contest for *the* wallpaper, just a good way to get lots of nice new images and grow our community. I did discuss this on irc as well as on the mailing list. Check the archives. To be honest, I have watched the openSUSE artwork community for the last 6 months and thought that there was a problem. Design by committee does not work - it will never produce the best results. The mailing list seemed pretty silent, chat was only discussing daily issues so I tried to step in a "give it a kick" so to speak. I wanted to offer my experience as information and perhaps some small deeds (I really am busy at work having just started). I was asked to step in and help with a few things when there was nobody else to do them (working for SUSE has advantages and disadvantages :P) so it is not like I want to push my agenda or such, I really just want to help where needed. I think that this team does need some kind of leader. That leader is 100% likely NOT to be the one producing the design for each release, nor deciding on the direction him/herself, etc. That leader should simply herd the cats, check the boxes, encourage people, and help the team grow. Andy said he would like to give it a shot, nobody had any good reasons against it (again, on the mailing list) and then things, unfortunately, went a bit silent for a while. If anything, I think that this whole current discussion is because: a) there was not enough on-going discussion b) sometimes the tone of the email came across too heavy Both of those things are easy to solve and most likely only came about due to circumstances and misunderstanding. I don't think the current situation deserves too many emotions and seems easily solvable.

...

We are the only team that runs a wallpaper contest. If we don't call it official, then who does? If someone else does, I wouldn't have any problems with that. As long as we run a contest where our members can be involved.

You are the one who has run a wallpaper contest. I have clearly stated several times that I only support that kind of contest for supplementary wallpapers and only with clear guidelines (no logo modifications ...)

No, that was me…yes, I only intended it to be extra wallpapers unless by happenstance one of them would actually turn out to be the perfect fit. Mainly I just wanted to get wider involvement from outside the current community and get some nice free pics for little or no effort :-) Kenneth Wimer -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

Sent from my iPhone On Dec 6, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Am 06.12.2012 18:45, schrieb Kenneth Wimer:

...

On Dec 6, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

...

Hi andi.

...

wrote:

...

On 2012-12-03 18:28:05 (-0700), Andy (anditosan) wrote:

...

Wallpaper Contest Guidelines

Hi Andy. Sorry to be late to pick this thread up, but it's needed, I think.

...

This is an official announcement of the wallpaper contest for openSUSE 12.3.

I'd like to stop you right here. If you call a one-man-action that has not been discussed with the other contributors of the artwork team an "official announcement", there is clearly an issue.

No problem. Please take the contest in your team's hands and run it. It really feels like a one man's show because you have not been part of the conversations taken at the artwork team's chat. I can't help with that. But if you don't like it, I can understand. I called it official mostly because it is the artwork team that runs the contest. If it was not official, then what is?

If it has not been discussed in an official meeting or on the mailinglist it did not happen at all.

Please point out the logs to the meeting where this has been discussed.

First off, if there is blame to go around you can give me a big helping of it. From my experience leading an artwork community, I suggested several ways of improvement which cost nothing more than a little bit of work selecting what we want.

There is a difference between a contest for *the* wallpaper and a contest for wallpaperS for the next release. I in no way intended this to become a contest for *the* wallpaper, just a good way to get lots of nice new images and grow our community.

I did discuss this on irc as well as on the mailing list. Check the archives.

To be honest, I have watched the openSUSE artwork community for the last 6 months and thought that there was a problem. Design by committee does not work - it will never produce the best results. The mailing list seemed pretty silent, chat was only discussing daily issues so I tried to step in a "give it a kick" so to speak. I wanted to offer my experience as information and perhaps some small deeds (I really am busy at work having just started). I was asked to step in and help with a few things when there was nobody else to do them (working for SUSE has advantages and disadvantages :P) so it is not like I want to push my agenda or such, I really just want to help where needed.

I think that this team does need some kind of leader. That leader is 100% likely NOT to be the one producing the design for each release, nor deciding on the direction him/herself, etc. That leader should simply herd the cats, check the boxes, encourage people, and help the team grow. Andy said he would like to give it a shot, nobody had any good reasons against it (again, on the mailing list) and then things, unfortunately, went a bit silent for a while.

Definitly No!

I trust in leaderless communities.

You mentioned that you are watching the team for 6 month. Maybe this should have been more. Have you ever took part in a release cycle for oS?

For me, you are just a new contributor in this team, like anyone else. I don't care if you work for SUSE or not.

If you contribute, you will earn 'credits'.

We have had enough talkers in the past few years.

Greets Marcus

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

And it is on that rola that I was acting. Maybe Marcus did not know about that, hence his comments tend to point out to the unreasonable responsibility attribution. That is why I think we need to define ourselves. I had the impression, likely wrong, that this Contest could define which would be the one wallpaper for the default. Apparently, that is not the case in everyone's mind and that is understandable. However, we can at least define what wallpapers will be part of a collection of wallpapers that open-openSUSE can use in the future. I personally think that I community should have leaders or some sort of organization. Many of us think that I need or is not someone who cannot be willing to help others or understanding of the contributions that other members. On the subject is over leaderless community I think it is important to understand that if we don't have any type of organization and then anybody can take attributions for himself thinking that he only their contributions are beyond anyone else's. It is also another thing of our team that we don't have people who are capable enough to make the type of contributions of others do but they need to have an equal opportunity to make a contribution anyway. So in this case Marcus and others have the understanding to make contributions be pushed through factory and make them to defaults on the community. But that again negates the possibility that others can make a contribution based on discussion with less understanding. Making it so that only those who have the knowledge to contribute are able to contribute and those who cannot should not contribute. Let's define ourselves more and also let's define whether we can continue working on this wallpaper contest. Andy (anditosan)-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

Hi all, I think that the email from Andi was, due to being sent via iPhone and I assume being sent as soon as possible in order to show commitment, poorly stated. I think that a more in depth discussion amongst all involved concerning this and other issues would be the best way to move forward. Maybe a google hangout or such? Kenneth Wimer -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany On Dec 6, 2012, at 8:39 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Am 06.12.2012 20:12, schrieb Andres Silva:

...

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 6, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

...

Am 06.12.2012 18:45, schrieb Kenneth Wimer:

...

On Dec 6, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

...

Hi andi.

...

wrote: > On 2012-12-03 18:28:05 (-0700), Andy (anditosan) wrote: >> Wallpaper Contest Guidelines > > Hi Andy. Sorry to be late to pick this thread up, but it's > needed, I think. > >> This is an official announcement of the wallpaper contest for >> openSUSE 12.3. > > I'd like to stop you right here. If you call a one-man-action > that has not been discussed with the other contributors of the > artwork team an "official announcement", there is clearly an > issue.

No problem. Please take the contest in your team's hands and run it. It really feels like a one man's show because you have not been part of the conversations taken at the artwork team's chat. I can't help with that. But if you don't like it, I can understand. I called it official mostly because it is the artwork team that runs the contest. If it was not official, then what is?

If it has not been discussed in an official meeting or on the mailinglist it did not happen at all.

Please point out the logs to the meeting where this has been discussed.

First off, if there is blame to go around you can give me a big helping of it. From my experience leading an artwork community, I suggested several ways of improvement which cost nothing more than a little bit of work selecting what we want.

There is a difference between a contest for *the* wallpaper and a contest for wallpaperS for the next release. I in no way intended this to become a contest for *the* wallpaper, just a good way to get lots of nice new images and grow our community.

I did discuss this on irc as well as on the mailing list. Check the archives.

To be honest, I have watched the openSUSE artwork community for the last 6 months and thought that there was a problem. Design by committee does not work - it will never produce the best results. The mailing list seemed pretty silent, chat was only discussing daily issues so I tried to step in a "give it a kick" so to speak. I wanted to offer my experience as information and perhaps some small deeds (I really am busy at work having just started). I was asked to step in and help with a few things when there was nobody else to do them (working for SUSE has advantages and disadvantages :P) so it is not like I want to push my agenda or such, I really just want to help where needed.

I think that this team does need some kind of leader. That leader is 100% likely NOT to be the one producing the design for each release, nor deciding on the direction him/herself, etc. That leader should simply herd the cats, check the boxes, encourage people, and help the team grow. Andy said he would like to give it a shot, nobody had any good reasons against it (again, on the mailing list) and then things, unfortunately, went a bit silent for a while.

Definitly No!

I trust in leaderless communities.

You mentioned that you are watching the team for 6 month. Maybe this should have been more. Have you ever took part in a release cycle for oS?

For me, you are just a new contributor in this team, like anyone else. I don't care if you work for SUSE or not.

If you contribute, you will earn 'credits'.

We have had enough talkers in the past few years.

Greets Marcus

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

And it is on that rola that I was acting. Maybe Marcus did not know about that, hence his comments tend to point out to the unreasonable responsibility attribution. That is why I think we need to define ourselves.

Hmm, cannot find any design proposals by you (yes, I am talking about art, not words).

...

I had the impression, likely wrong, that this Contest could define which would be the one wallpaper for the default. Apparently, that is not the case in everyone's mind and that is understandable. However, we can at least define what wallpapers will be part of a collection of wallpapers that open-openSUSE can use in the future. I personally think that I community should have leaders or some sort of organization. Many of us think that I need or is not someone who cannot be willing to help others or understanding of the contributions that other members. On the subject is over leaderless community I think it is important to understand that if we don't have any type of organization and then anybody can take attributions for himself thinking that he only their contributions are beyond anyone else's. It is also another thing of our team that we don't have people who are capable enough to make the type of contributions of others do but they need to have an equal opportunity to make a contribution anyway. So in this case Marcus and others have the understanding to make contributions be pushed through factory and make them to defaults on the community. But that again negates the possibility that others can make a contribution based on discussion with less understanding. Making it so that only those who have the knowledge to contribute are able to contribute and those who cannot should not contribute.

What lead you to this assumption?

I have not pushed anything to factory without discussing it. The KDE ppl have just decided to work on the plasma theme in factory. I was not involved in that and I was the one who brought them back here.

...

Let's define ourselves more and also let's define whether we can continue working on this wallpaper contest.

Have you even read my previous mails?

I have suggested several different proposals how to organize this team (without the need of leaders). We can agree on processes together. (like the poll on the irc channel merge).

Greets Marcus

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Dec 6, 2012, at 9:24 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Hi again.

...

I think that the email from Andi was, due to being sent via iPhone and I assume being sent as soon as possible in order to show commitment, poorly stated. I think that a more in depth discussion amongst all involved concerning this and other issues would be the best way to move forward. Maybe a google hangout or such?

We could sort things out on the ml or irc and at the marketing/artwork hackweek which will happen in Nuernberg, after FOSDEM.

BUT: most things have already been said:

- no official announcements by Andi, unless we all agree on (including things like dreamopensuse)

I agree that everything should be discussed more thoroughly on the mailing list before anything "official" is said.

- find ideas how to handle distro/supplementary artwork (I have already given some input on that, but it can be sharpened)

Yes, agreed as well

- create a list of tasks, describing what needs to be done for a release

This is the basis of everything and needs to be done before anything else.

- find ppl who declare theirself as responsible for that tasks (for a specific release)

For all the non-creative works I think this is true. When it comes down to the actual artwork I think we should take a different approach. That is a very complicated issue which I do not intend to describe here and now. There are many many books concerning this subject so going into it here would not be the right place. We can start this as a new thread to discuss such details but in this one it serves little purpose.

- prepare the upcoming release

In the future we can benifit from that, as we already do from the knowledge we gained during the past releases.

This might be an even greater adventure for 12.3 as it might bring a major theme/style switch from pure gree to green-black/grey.

Definitely true :-) Kenneth Wimer -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Dec 6, 2012, at 7:14 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Am 06.12.2012 18:45, schrieb Kenneth Wimer:

...

On Dec 6, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

...

Hi andi.

...

wrote:

...

On 2012-12-03 18:28:05 (-0700), Andy (anditosan) wrote:

...

Wallpaper Contest Guidelines

Hi Andy. Sorry to be late to pick this thread up, but it's needed, I think.

...

This is an official announcement of the wallpaper contest for openSUSE 12.3.

I'd like to stop you right here. If you call a one-man-action that has not been discussed with the other contributors of the artwork team an "official announcement", there is clearly an issue.

No problem. Please take the contest in your team's hands and run it. It really feels like a one man's show because you have not been part of the conversations taken at the artwork team's chat. I can't help with that. But if you don't like it, I can understand. I called it official mostly because it is the artwork team that runs the contest. If it was not official, then what is?

If it has not been discussed in an official meeting or on the mailinglist it did not happen at all.

Please point out the logs to the meeting where this has been discussed.

First off, if there is blame to go around you can give me a big helping of it. From my experience leading an artwork community, I suggested several ways of improvement which cost nothing more than a little bit of work selecting what we want.

There is a difference between a contest for *the* wallpaper and a contest for wallpaperS for the next release. I in no way intended this to become a contest for *the* wallpaper, just a good way to get lots of nice new images and grow our community.

I did discuss this on irc as well as on the mailing list. Check the archives.

To be honest, I have watched the openSUSE artwork community for the last 6 months and thought that there was a problem. Design by committee does not work - it will never produce the best results. The mailing list seemed pretty silent, chat was only discussing daily issues so I tried to step in a "give it a kick" so to speak. I wanted to offer my experience as information and perhaps some small deeds (I really am busy at work having just started). I was asked to step in and help with a few things when there was nobody else to do them (working for SUSE has advantages and disadvantages :P) so it is not like I want to push my agenda or such, I really just want to help where needed.

I think that this team does need some kind of leader. That leader is 100% likely NOT to be the one producing the design for each release, nor deciding on the direction him/herself, etc. That leader should simply herd the cats, check the boxes, encourage people, and help the team grow. Andy said he would like to give it a shot, nobody had any good reasons against it (again, on the mailing list) and then things, unfortunately, went a bit silent for a while.

Definitly No!

Unless the artwork decides it you mean? Just a joke, but it is all about tone :-)

I trust in leaderless communities.

Then why does openSUSE have a board? Leaders are not bad. Maybe in our case the term "leader" is incorrect. Maybe it should be called "release maintainer" (for our teams efforts)…anyway...

You mentioned that you are watching the team for 6 month. Maybe this should have been more. Have you ever took part in a release cycle for oS?

While I have done all the artwork and a large part of the packaging thereof for more than 21 releases of both SUSE and Ubuntu I have only recently started working on oS. Luckily I did, or else a couple of the marketing things that almost slipped the radar or where too technically challenging got done on time. The team probably doesn't realize it though because I never mentioned it on the list. So I have already contributed and intend to help where I can when possible.

For me, you are just a new contributor in this team, like anyone else. I don't care if you work for SUSE or not.

Yes, I agree! I also mentioned that in the email I sent to the list introducing myself.

If you contribute, you will earn 'credits'.

Right, it is a meritocracy, I get that. Note that I, in no way, wish to lead the artwork team or such nonsense, that used to be part of my job :-)

We have had enough talkers in the past few years.

Honestly, there are only a handful of people who have the experience I do in designing linux desktops. I only want to leverage that to help this team. I think that for the time being I will take a back seat and let things play out. No need for me to cause a commotion where it is not needed or desired. Kenneth Wimer -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

* Kenneth Wimer [12-06-12 14:23]: ...

Honestly, there are only a handful of people who have the experience I do in designing linux desktops. I only want to leverage that to help this team.

Your help is appreciated. Feelings are being displayed probably due to recent "arguements" re combining lists, etc. Leadership is a *necessary* thing in all endeavors and when election or appointment does not happern, *someone* will nearly always step forward and be accepted or not.

I think that for the time being I will take a back seat and let things play out. No need for me to cause a commotion where it is not needed or desired.

You haven't *caused* the commotion. It is a result of the current atmosphere. Too many chips being played right now. This "artwork" vs "marketing" edginess needs to become cooperative or it is going to drive away badly needed participation. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Dec 6, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Am 06.12.2012 21:31, schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

...

* Kenneth Wimer [12-06-12 14:23]: ...

...

Honestly, there are only a handful of people who have the experience I do in designing linux desktops. I only want to leverage that to help this team.

Your help is appreciated. Feelings are being displayed probably due to recent "arguements" re combining lists, etc. Leadership is a *necessary* thing in all endeavors and when election or appointment does not happern, *someone* will nearly always step forward and be accepted or not.

We should not discuss this here. There are several opinions on that. Mine is totally opposite to yours, an I have been active in open source comminities for a really long time. This opinion is based on knowledge I've gained. Leadership is not necessary in tasked based teams!

I agree with this sentiment but I think I can explain, through my experience, how an artwork community/team is slightly different than any other open source community/team. I bet that kernel developers say the same thing :P When it comes down to very specific and rare skill-sets you have to allow for exceptions in order to attain the largest profit. Again, this concept is hard to explain in an email (at least for me) but I can give you many examples it we sit down and talk about it together :-) Kenneth Wimer -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012-12-06 20:23:07 (+0100), Kenneth Wimer wrote:

On Dec 6, 2012, at 7:14 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote: [...]

...

I trust in leaderless communities.

Then why does openSUSE have a board? Leaders are not bad. Maybe in our case the term "leader" is incorrect. Maybe it should be called "release maintainer" (for our teams efforts)…anyway...

Kenneth, I believe you have a misunderstanding on the function of the board in the openSUSE project :) On the leader-or-not-topic, we should take a deep breath, as I believe we probably all agree more or less, but everyone is putting something different in the word "leadership". We clearly don't want anyone bossing around, that's for sure, and that's probably Marcus' understanding of "leadership" in this context, and also most probably why he reacts in such a vocal way. Let's not forget that only a fraction of us are native speakers when it comes to English :) Marcus, please check again what Kenneth described as "leadership", I'm pretty sure that you guys don't have a completely opposite opinion ;) [...]

Honestly, there are only a handful of people who have the experience I do in designing linux desktops. I only want to leverage that to help this team.

And your help and your experience are most welcome.

I think that for the time being I will take a back seat and let things play out. No need for me to cause a commotion where it is not needed or desired.

Ah, no, please don't. You're entitled to have an opinion just like everyone else on the team. And you should voice it, too. As I wrote in another post, it's natural that things are stirring up right now because too much frustration and manipulation has happened behind the scenes for the last half year. We need to resolve this together. It's a classic scenario that things become more heated before we can find a catharsis. So no panic. Frustration and emotions are on a high right now. That's alright. We need to let everything out, clearly address the actual issues that are hiding behind all that. Definitely sounds like a need for mediation to me. Emotion is just fine, most of us are into this because of passion. But we need to clarify misunderstandings and sched some light on what has actually happened rather than what some say has happened. Get rid of frustration, find a middle ground that works for all or most on the team, and put emotion back to better use :) cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- we haz green _\_v http://fosdem.org -- we haz conf

Am 06.12.2012 21:52, schrieb Michael Fox:

On 07/12/12 05:14, Marcus Moeller wrote:

...

Definitly No!

I trust in leaderless communities.

Hahaha, don't make me laugh, leaderless!?, take a look at yourself, you will not allow us to be 'leaderless' without it fitting into your master plan, you who has not participated in any conversation in both Irc and on the ML for the past year or so, keep your nose out of our affairs and

let us get on with our job ok.

Aeh, you know who did all the work for the last two release? It was Richard, Me and tigerfoot.

...

We have had enough talkers in the past few years.

we the artwork team has been refining an idea of going for a soothing watercolour style for 12.3 for the past 4 months as an option to the fad of dark is better that is linux today, but i guess all that time is wasted now

http://mfoxdogg.com/opensuse/openSUSE12-3_style_draft01.odt , in case you were wondering

No, it's nice and can be combined of what we did. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

Forwarded your mail to the board. Marcus

...

...

...

Definitly No!

I trust in leaderless communities.

Hahaha, don't make me laugh, leaderless!?, take a look at yourself, you will not allow us to be 'leaderless' without it fitting into your master plan, you who has not participated in any conversation in both Irc and on the ML for the past year or so, keep your nose out of our affairs and

...

let us get on with our job ok.

Aeh, you know who did all the work for the last two release? It was Richard, Me and tigerfoot.

And Please tell me where these ideas were refined and honed, i'll tell you, on this ML and in #-artwork

Now this time you don't do it and we think,"ok we can do this ourselves since the master trio hasn't said anything" but instead you do it cowardly behind our back because you don't want actual artists who do designs for a living to 'ruin' (as you so elequantly put it).

So who is really at fault here, the one who took the first step and tried to get artwork moving as its getting very late in the game, or the one who has been cowardly doing it behind peoples backs

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012-12-06 22:24:39 (+0100), Kenneth Wimer wrote:

On Dec 6, 2012, at 10:11 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

...

Forwarded your mail to the board.

Ok, wait. This is silly. As much as I think Michael went over-board with his email I think you are, sadly, doing the same. There is a way to make everyone happy (well, at least to some extent, and if you ask me that is what we all call "life") without bickering.

Hi Kenneth I don't see that as silly and over-board. The board consists of people who have been entrusted by the active members of the community to attempt to do conflict resolution (and a few other things). Because we've earned the trust of our fellows by our actions, and because we know the project pretty well. Taking it to the board doesn't mean sanctions, commands, or whatever. There is no hierarchy. And if this isn't a conflict, what is? :)

I'll be brutally honest and say that I think that this is what comes of an artwork team which decisions are based on a non-design-based comity. Yes, we need non-designers in this team. They are a very large part in what we do but if this is not a design-based team but rather lead by democracy from developers and non-contributing members due to statistics we will always miss our goal.

Can't comment on that, I'm not part of the designer elite ^^ More seriously, that might well be the case, you are definitely more qualified and experienced than me in that domain. But I can tell you that there is clearly another issue, which has nothing to do with designer and non-designer, but all to do with ... let's say... misrepresenting the truth and not wanting to work in a team and in the ways of the project (which means transparency, communication, sharing ideas, respecting each other). As stated in the Guiding Principles, for example. Doesn't always work, but we try our best. And everyone should try their best to achieve that. Tone is one thing, anyone can have a bad day. But manipulation is not acceptable. (No, I'm not saying _you_ do that, Kenneth ;)) Pity is that the issue hasn't been spoken out clearly and publicly. Might be a bit problematic because it might harm one person's karma on the internet (archives are everywhere). The situation is stirring up like this right now because a lot of crap has been happening behind the scenes since some time now. There is quite a lot of frustration which can barely be held. And there has been a fair share of manipulation and posing which has successfully confused a few people on the team. Going through the board to try to sort the situation out is not a bad option at all. We're sensible people and we try to talk openly to everyone who's involved in the situation, then propose solutions that, from our experience, we believe will have most chances of being successful. Of course, sometimes, more drastic measures need to be taken to protect teams or even the project as a whole. I'm sure you've seen the Poisonous People video. But those are really the last resort. IMHO a few things need to be spoken out very clearly right now, and put on the table, in order to resolve the situation (because this _is_ a situation, I'm sure everyone will agree). Having one faction against the other is not a sustainable situation, and is clearly not a nice atmosphere to contribute in. And if it ain't fun, what's the point? cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- we haz green _\_v http://fosdem.org -- we haz conf

Hi, Wow, really bad style and tone. Sorry but that has to be said. "Haters gonna hate" kinda creeps through in this to me, even though I actually appreciate the work you have done so far. It is honestly a great start. Sad that you combined your good work with too much scorn. Also, stating that you are the artwork team, "we the artwork team" in your words, seems a bit contrived to me. There are quite a many other skills and talents which define the artwork team - it is, after all, a meritocracy. I invite you to join that process, especially after seeing what you have produced so far, but I would ask for a better tone when discussing things with the community. On Dec 6, 2012, at 9:52 PM, Michael Fox wrote:

On 07/12/12 05:14, Marcus Moeller wrote:

...

Definitly No!

I trust in leaderless communities.

Hahaha, don't make me laugh, leaderless!?, take a look at yourself, you will not allow us to be 'leaderless' without it fitting into your master plan, you who has not participated in any conversation in both Irc and on the ML for the past year or so, keep your nose out of our affairs and let us get on with our job ok.

...

If you contribute, you will earn 'credits'.

No one wants credits, they want to help make openSUSE better that's it, and the only way they can do so is through artwork they don't care if their name is plastered every where, they just want to help

...

We have had enough talkers in the past few years.

we the artwork team has been refining an idea of going for a soothing watercolour style for 12.3 for the past 4 months as an option to the fad of dark is better that is linux today, but i guess all that time is wasted now

http://mfoxdogg.com/opensuse/openSUSE12-3_style_draft01.odt , in case you were wondering

Kenneth Wimer -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

Hi again.

...

Wow, really bad style and tone.

Sorry but that has to be said. "Haters gonna hate" kinda creeps through in this to me, even though I actually appreciate the work you have done so far. It is honestly a great start. Sad that you combined your good work with too much scorn. Also, stating that you are the artwork team, "we the artwork team" in your words, seems a bit contrived to me. There are quite a many other skills and talents which define the artwork team - it is, after all, a meritocracy. I invite you to join that process, especially after seeing what you have produced so far, but I would ask for a better tone when discussing things with the community.

Are you talking to me or to Michael?

Ah, this was addressed to Michael. Sorry I missed the line. Too much talking today. I would suggest to create a wiki page where we can summarize what we have been talking about and merge good ideas (which I have also seen in your proposal, Michael). Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Dec 6, 2012, at 10:08 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Hi again.

...

...

Wow, really bad style and tone.

Sorry but that has to be said. "Haters gonna hate" kinda creeps through in this to me, even though I actually appreciate the work you have done so far. It is honestly a great start. Sad that you combined your good work with too much scorn. Also, stating that you are the artwork team, "we the artwork team" in your words, seems a bit contrived to me. There are quite a many other skills and talents which define the artwork team - it is, after all, a meritocracy. I invite you to join that process, especially after seeing what you have produced so far, but I would ask for a better tone when discussing things with the community.

Are you talking to me or to Michael?

Ah, this was addressed to Michael. Sorry I missed the line. Too much talking today.

I would suggest to create a wiki page where we can summarize what we have been talking about and merge good ideas (which I have also seen in your proposal, Michael).

I think one of the first things we could do would be to fix the wiki :P It currently serves as the place where one hides information, being able later to say "I put it on the wiki". It could and should be a good resource but for me it seems to be a real problem. Kenneth Wimer -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Dec 6, 2012, at 10:03 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

...

Hi Ken.

...

Wow, really bad style and tone.

Sorry but that has to be said. "Haters gonna hate" kinda creeps through in this to me, even though I actually appreciate the work you have done so far. It is honestly a great start. Sad that you combined your good work with too much scorn. Also, stating that you are the artwork team, "we the artwork team" in your words, seems a bit contrived to me. There are quite a many other skills and talents which define the artwork team - it is, after all, a meritocracy. I invite you to join that process, especially after seeing what you have produced so far, but I would ask for a better tone when discussing things with the community. Are you talking to me or to Michael?

I was responding to Michael. I agree with what you said and understand your situation (which kinda explains some other things to me which were until now unclear). Honestly, I think that Michael is going down the right path design-process-wise and I would love to help such efforts see fruition but the tone and voice of the email simply over-whelmed me and I thought I should say so :-)

Kenneth Wimer

On 07/12/12 08:09, Kenneth Wimer wrote: thank you, and im terribly sorry about the tone, im normally not like this (having a hard time in life,heh go figure;) ), i'll be quite now, andi told me that too, so im sorry aswell andi, i'll keep out of it now, im getting too emotional -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Dec 6, 2012, at 10:17 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Hi Ken.

...

...

...

...

Wow, really bad style and tone.

Sorry but that has to be said. "Haters gonna hate" kinda creeps through in this to me, even though I actually appreciate the work you have done so far. It is honestly a great start. Sad that you combined your good work with too much scorn. Also, stating that you are the artwork team, "we the artwork team" in your words, seems a bit contrived to me. There are quite a many other skills and talents which define the artwork team - it is, after all, a meritocracy. I invite you to join that process, especially after seeing what you have produced so far, but I would ask for a better tone when discussing things with the community. Are you talking to me or to Michael?

I was responding to Michael. I agree with what you said and understand your situation (which kinda explains some other things to me which were until now unclear). Honestly, I think that Michael is going down the right path design-process-wise and I would love to help such efforts see fruition but the tone and voice of the email simply over-whelmed me and I thought I should say so :-)

Kenneth Wimer thank you, and im terribly sorry about the tone, im normally not like this (having a hard time in life,heh go figure;) ), i'll be quite now, andi told me that too, so im sorry aswell andi, i'll keep out of it now, im getting too emotional

Just to make clear: I don't even know this guy, and cannot remember any contributions by him, in the past.

The development of 12.1 and 12.2 was very transparent, and done completly on the ML, in IRC (where even meetings happened) and GIT.

These are all documented well in the archive, IRC logs and gitorious.

Yes, after looking into things you contribution is very visible. I think that we simply have a break-down of communication which would be best solved by more direct methods than the mailing list. A team conference call with video, if possible, would be the best way to solve some of these issues very quickly. Kenneth Wimer -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 6 Dec 2012 22:29:20 +0100 Kenneth Wimer wrote:

some of these issues very quickly

We can solve issues by work ie. art-work. Discussions are futile. No amount of text will ever give a picture that people can look and say do they like it or not. As I see here two very different ideas for next openSUSE, one dark and melancholic and another that is trying to give light and perspective, the only way to decide what to follow is to have pictures and let users choose. There is plenty on forums, Facebook, G+ etc. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org