Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (1239 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] RE: Stability of systemd
On 06/16/2013 07:23 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
Bruce Ferrell said the following on 06/16/2013 09:51 AM:

When a system that worked perfectly WITHOUT systemd has to be booted
3 time to get it to come up WITH systemd and no means of determining
why, I wouldn't call it a "corner case". In my opinion (and I've been
using Linux since '93), I'd say it's unstable, unreliable and nowhere
near ready for release.

Only 93? About 20 years after I started with UNIX ...

So you started long after USG introduced the model we now call sysvinit in the
early 1980s and didn't see the unholy mess they made of it, nor their
re-working of things that
Denis, Rob and many others had working just fine since the V7 days and and were
rock solid in UNIX 8, which was internal to Bell Labs. You didn't see the
arguments that people
like Bill Joy had with them and why BSD and eventually SUN went in a different
direction - and became a 'reference standard' for many developers and why the
BSD model is still
considered more secure (meaning stable, has integrity, flaw-free, not just
'hacker proof').

I said Linux since '93. I've worked with *IX since about '80. Back then mostly DecUnix and SunOS and I dID see the switch over from the BSD model to sysV. It did take some getting used to but sysV was based on transparency... And the shift was CLEARLY and FULLY documented... No, "well, ya gotta know" garbage.

snippage of kernel level stuff<

So why am I using Linux rather then BSD? Because of systemd!

While the concepts may be laudable, the implementation needs more
careful thought... And THAT seems to be missing.

How come it works so easily for me?
Because I'm willing to adapt and learn and find out they WHY when things don'
go the way I expect. All to often the 'don't go the way I expect' say more
about my expectations than
any flaw in the code.

How come it doesn't work for me on a clean install?

The thing is, I suspect, that I'm wiling to accept that Lennart and Cristian
are smarter than me, a lot smarter, and I'm willing to accept their way and
learn from them rather than
insist that my way is the right way. I've seen to many changes in *NIX over
the years and its been a proving ground for many great ideas, which is one
reason it has come to
dominate despite the lack of Big Advertising behind it.

Lennert and Christain may be smarter than me... Not necessarily proven, and irrelevant
BUT there seem to be a LOT of people who are having problems with Lennerts

*IX came to dominate for one, and only one reason. Linux, free, open Linux. Before that it was a huge expense and a bit of a vampire due to the corporate nature (want a driver for your ethernet card? $$$, how about your SCSI card? $$$... Networking, that's extra.) of *IX before Linux. And Linux happened because the folks from BSD386 wanted a good ol' boys garden and wouldn't let Linux play in it. And Yes, I was one of those dutiful compilers of code from Dr Dobbs... Right up until Linux came on the scene.

I subscribe to [systemd-devl] and I do see that a lot of careful thought and
testing is going into development.

I base what I say on evidence not prejudice.

As do I. The evidence is in my system that worked just fine before systemd. systemd should have remained and OPTION/CHOICE not a mandate in openSUSE until it was better debugged in openSUSE.

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