Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (1445 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:50:35PM +0100, LLLActive@xxxxxxx wrote:

As written before: This issue is a non issue to me. I'm able to work
with the YaST package manager front end as it is.

The technical issue is not the point. It is the way things are seen
and discussed. For you it may be a non-issue, others are allowed to
differ - or not?

What is driving you to this rhetorical question?

What you believe, what you think, what you do is all up to you. I
expressed my view how I like to see all of us working together on the
openSUSE project.

Idenpendent of our skill level, the nation we're coming from, or gender,
or background, or everthying.

It is a common problem of most humans not to
accommodate the issues of others.

Let me ask back if you have tried this?

I do and believe to handle this to approximately ¾ quite well. Some
days better and some days not this good.

So where is the feature request you filed?

If you all count this feature that important for openSUSE why don't you
go the way we have to go to convince the YaST developers?

"Sorry, I don't have the time." is what we have seen before in this
thread and what I expect as answer to this mail too.

I hope anyone else is able to see the circular type of the
argumentation.
Technically, yes ... between technical specialists on this list?
User input unwanted?

features.openSUSE.org is for anyone in the community. But that's what
I've written before. Are you reading my replies? And are you even try
to understand them and to follow the argumentation?

Athttps://features.openSUSE.org people can vote. Developers and users
can add their comments.

But you guys expect others are doing stuff you like to see happening.
OK, our ideas and 'stuff' are unimportant;

What is driving you to this conclusion?

https://features.openSUSE.org/ is there for any community member.

not all on the list are
able to develop - should we then go and come again when we can code?

Has anyone written that you or anyone else has to offer a diff, a patch,
an algorithm or anthing else technical?

Even a good desciption of an idea is enough. This tool is to track and
evaluate suggestions and ideas. The name could even be
public.brain.storm.openSUSE.org

See it as a +1 -1 collecting engine. It's a tool which _might_ save all
of us extra work if we make use of it.

As some people make regular use of bugzilla, the tool to track bug
reports. This is something which drives development.

Where do users go then, if not on a user list? This causes the death
of great projects like openSUSE, this attitude scares off users, the
ultimate object of the project. If the object is to just turn out
excellent code, the project is condemned to 'geekness'. How
enlightening ...

No. You read something into this and the mails earlier what has not
been written. Not even in between the lines.

Which leads me to the question: Do you like the project to be like you
describe it or how it looks to you?

Sorry, following this approach must fail.

Yes, it is a pity that users are bracketed to another lists.

I never have sent anyone to a different list. Even here you miss the
context or like to see it different.

If you like to get something done or moved you _also_ need to get
developers involved. I expect the majority of developers are not on
this list. Therfore we have to use the established interface to
communicate user needs. This inteface is features.openSUSE.org or the
bug tracker.

Won't
it be more useful if we all can share ideas with the people creating
openSUSE?

You can share ideas as much as you like. And even if the main goal is
to produce hot air or to cause a long thread.

There might even be some outcome.

That's all up to you.

But it's even up to me to raise my voice and to try to focus the forces
to get at the end a better result for the openSUSE project. And that's
at the end good to any of us.

But the big question might be: who creates openSUSE?

My view: the people doing the work on the numerous componets openSUSE is
compiled/ constructed from.

The feature tracking tool is one mechanism to focus and filter
communication. As bugzilla is. Much advanced compared to a plain
mailing list.

That's the reason why I stressed to use the available tools. Tools made
from the Open Source community to be used by the Open Source community
to enhance the Open Source community.

As openSUSE is part of this community you and I are also part of it and
are invited to make use of these tools.

Nothing more or less did I intend to express.

Make use of the available tools to enhance openSUSE, please.

We common users will try not to frustrate, but just
adding to a feature list is not exactly a discussion. Users do not
always know how to describe a feature/problem, and need patient
engineers to guide them along a conceptual problem solving path to
define the ideas. Is this list then only for developers? I thought
it was a user list.

Read http://lists.openSUSE.org/ there is a summary what this list is
intended for.

Generic questions and User to User support for the openSUSE
distribution

For the remaining see the arguments above and in earlier mails as part
of this thread.

[ 8< ]
No, just appealing to some mature acceptance that users are one of
our main resources and should be the target for developing openSUSE.
No one is interested in the fighting of who is technically right and
who is wrong - openSUSE should become the most accepted and user
liked product! If that is not the main aim of all what is happening
here, what is the point? Users move on - they do not care about
internal problems. If the product is user shy, it will be dropped.

cat /etc/motd and see what I guess is the main goal of the project.

If we create at the end a fabulous operating system I'm more than happy
too.

Users are needed. But any 'only' user also has to be aware that
developers also have needs. The big question is how to balance the
needs.

As the result of this discussion I'm more and more able to understand
why developers stay away from this list. Its very, very time consuming.

On the other side it's frustrating to argue and argue again and again
and to see no progress at all.

Instead of driving this simple, non complex technical issue - keep in
mind we started at the point to change the YaST on exit default action
which is already configurable! - into a direction to address it, more
and more text without any new aspects got created.

Unproductive, time consuming, lame, no fun. Good arguments to stay away
from this list.


On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:48:37PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Lars Müller wrote:
[ 8< ]
Till now none of you who puts this amount of energy into this thread
had been powerful, smart, or solution driven enough to file a feature
request. Instead you expect others to drive something you like to get
changed.

Lars, in case you were not aware, one does not need to be powerful,
smart or even "solution driven" to file anything at openFATE. One just
needs a slightly naive belief that it'll start something.

But openFATE offers a mechanism to vote. Ok, all of you don't make use
of it? Then I believe it's time to file a request to drop this tool.

From a filed request I believe it's possible to guess if the initiating
person has an understanding or not about what got requested.


On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:49:23PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Lars Müller wrote:

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 06:58:47PM +0100, LLLActive@xxxxxxx wrote:
[ 8< ]

Maybe I did not make my point succinctly enough. The technical
solution here is not the point ...

Starting as a young dev engineer in TV broadcasting aeons ago, there
was often the comment from the engineer to a colleague, about the
video producers and sound techs, "I know how it works best, they get
what I can design best". This is mostly the incompetent, but
technically genial, engineer that whats to decide what is best for
the user.

Please keep in mind: I don't have anythibng to do with the YaST
development. I'm a community user like you're.

Except you hail from a "suse.de" address.

And I said this before the domain part of my address doesn't make any
difference. I have to argue the same way as anyone else. Believe it or
not.

Thanks,

Lars
--
Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ]
Samba Team
SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
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