Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (3893 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] SUSE repository
  • From: Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:18:13 +0100
  • Message-id: <459ACC15.5010709@xxxxxxxxx>
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jdd wrote:
> Pascal Bleser wrote:
>> Personally, I stick with smart because I like it better than yast2/zypp
>
> and nobody prevent you from doing so, this is linux's choice :-)
>
>> Don't attend SLED/SLES marketing conferences, spend time with the people
>> who use openSUSE.
>> Since when is this novell-marketing-dept@xxxxxxxxxxxx ?
>
> here, _you_ are kidding. if Novell wants to make some choices, do you
> think we won't be impacted with them ?

Of course we are. But it doesn't mean we can't object on it and push to
have a better solution on openSUSE.
They do what they want on SLES/SLED, but we do have a word to say about
openSUSE -- our opinion, at the very least.

> if Novell wants really to make zen they main product, I beg they will
> make also the zen-updater works, eventually revisiting it's
> specifications if necessary. In this respect it's good to have valuables
> remarks on this product. I never said to accept it without concern.

Note that the problem is really that it will never work fine with its
current architecture.
It's a level of abstraction no one needs _unless_ you buy ZenWorks
licenses and use it to manage your park of servers and/or workstations.
That's hardly the case for openSUSE users or if, at all, only a very
small percentage. It probably makes sense on SLED though.
And any level of abstraction is a potential source of issues.
In the case of ZMD, it uses a lot of memory, misbehaves as a process
(uses a lot of CPU, takes ages to "wake up", etc...) - well, I guess
almost everyone who used ZMD knows what I'm talking about.

>> How is zen any "mainstream" ? It's broken and it is broken by design
>> because the integration architecture with yast is sick.
>
> cure it (not you, of course, it's Novell's works)

IMO the "cure" is simply the zypp backend.

> I'm in no way Novell's (I was SuSE user before Novell know about it :-).
> I only think the main openSUSE sponsor wants to push a product and seems
> to be ready to spend money for that. I expect this to give results.

I'm usually fine with that _unless_ it sucks from a technical point of
view. And ZMD does, definitely.

> I don't think smart will gain users for openSUSE. What I like is Yast
> and I always liked the Yast package manager. I used Mandrake and didn't
> notice it to be faster than suse.

smart already has a lot of users on openSUSE.

> whatever system is underlying should not be a problem

Sorry, that's wrong. What system is underlying is precisely the point.
The yast2 package manager UI is fine, has a lot of options, all nice and
well. It seriously lacks a good CLI interface though, something we had
with y2pmsh and installation_sources.

zypper (which directly builds upon zypp) is OK to add repositories
(zypper sa URL) but doesn't cut it to install packages because the UI is
really bare-bones -- at least atm. Hopefully more work will be put into
zypper to give us a first-class CLI frontend, like apt, smart or yum.

Using yast's ZMD backend and ZMD causes issues, so you can't say the
underlying system shouldn't be a problem.

>>> anyway, my personal concern is nor zen but YaST. Is there where a YaST
>>> smart module, situation would be entirely different, but is it to be
>>> any?
>>
>> Ridiculous. Whatever your religious sales belief or your loyalty to
>> Novell's SLED marketing powerpoint slides are, using smart on 10.1 is
>> about having a package manager that *works*.
>
> my yast package manager works nearly each day and it's default. It _was_
> much too slow when 10.1 was released, but it's no more.

You probably never used apt or smart.

>>> I know all the problems, this costed me one hour in a year... but why
>>> not working to fix them inspite of forking?
>>
>> Fork ZMD ? yast2 ? You gotta be kidding.
>> Vote to have the zypp-backend as default in yast2 for 10.3, that's what
>> we should do.
>
> is that smart? or are you changing position ?

If you don't even know the difference between zypp and smart, then I
really wonder why you are so vocal about your opinion here.

zypp is not smart:
http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp
http://en.opensuse.org/Understanding_zmd

And this is what I called "sick" in my previous post:
http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Package-management-in-code10.png

>> Why isn't smart one of them ?
>
> because you can (and did) write about smart on opensuse.org without any
> problem AFAIK, so why ask users to go on an other web site (YaOWS Yet an
> other Web Site ?)

Because that wiki page explains how to add the Packman and Guru
repositories (in order to install full-fledged amarok, mplayer, etc...).
That part may not be posted on opensuse.org

>> If it wasn't for smart, at least half of the people who tried 10.1 would
>> have dropped SUSE and never look back.
>
> your are kidding. of course if the first thing you do if making people
> changing for smart, all the people you know of use smart of go elsewhere
> :-)

You weren't on IRC when lots of people came whining about SUSE 10.1
sucking so bad because of yast2's package manager module.
It was awful. If we hadn't recommended to use smart instead, those
people would just have wiped SUSE and would never come back.

Stop talking about things you have no idea of.

>> And as *active*, committed community members who help lots of people to
>> use SUSE on IRC every single day, if we want to put a page about setting
>> up smart and recommend using smart on 10.1 because we saved lots of
>> people from the ZMD mess, then we just do so.
>
> I also help a lot of people, but not on IRC. and if you want to have a
> "pascalbeseler.org" web site, it's your problem. I also have my own
> mediawiki, but I don't call it opensuse-community. I have also a
> fr.susewiki.org web site I stopped to work on opensuse.org as any body
> should do for the community, wherever possible...

opensuse-community.org is not "my" wiki

>> Oh really. I wonder what makes you think you've got a better clue than
>> me wrt package managers, problems people ask for help on IRC and the
>> technical architecture of the ZMD backend in yast2.
>
> may you are not the only suse user in the world. This is at all
> ridiculous. I think you are in a bad mood these days :-(

Well, unqualified posts like yours do put me in a bad mood.

>> *gasp* I never "advertised it as being the only choice"
>
> I quoted your own text :
> "If it wasn't for smart, at least half of the people who tried 10.1 would
> have dropped SUSE and never look back."
>
> what is wrong with:
> http://en.opensuse.org/Using_10.1#Package_Management
>
> please, just consider what makes openSUSE different from all other
> distros. It's mainly YaST. What other specific package do you see
> (considering sax2 is part of yaST)?

The quality standards of the distribution, the polished desktop, the
highly qualified engineers who work on it (at least I can say so for the
people in N├╝rnberg) and the good integration.
YaST of course being a major asset, but not the package manager.
The YaST package manager is one of the worst in my opinion.

> so, I really think we first should work to make YaST better. Frankly, I
> don't see for now difference between patterns and the old YaST system
> (on a user point of view). I don't know really about zypp or zen. I was
> asked once: do you want to sync yast and zen a quoted "yes". I have no
> real problem with this.
>
> so 10.1 works, even without smart, and I beg millions of people uses it
> that you will never see on IRC...

Ok, let me summarize: you just said you have no clue about ZMD nor zypp
nor smart nor other package managers. Nor did you ever had to help those
people who were about to ditch SUSE because the package manager sucked
so bad on 10.1.

Thanks for your enlightened, qualified opinion.

- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\ <pascal.bleser@xxxxxxxxx> <guru@xxxxxxxxxxx>
_\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane.
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