Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (3666 mails)

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Re: [SLE] unsubscription
  • From: Brad Bourn <brad@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:10:21 -0700
  • Message-id: <200503091510.21653.brad@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
On Wednesday 09 March 2005 02:10 pm, columbo@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> On Wednesday 09 March 2005 14:01, Brad Bourn wrote:
> > On Wednesday 09 March 2005 10:01 am, columbo@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > Brad,
> > >
> > > The only problem is that the convention on this list is not to top
> > > post. It is an implicit (and, yeah, sometimes very explicit)
> > > agreement among the list members so that the flow of the
> > > conversation moves easily from screen to brain.
> > >
> >> ::Snip::
> >
> > I don't agree (obviously).
> > Seems like the only people that comlain are the ones that need
> > everyone to conform to them. This doesn't make it an "agreement".
> I've been a list member, on and off, long enough to know that the
> practice of top-posting is discouraged for the reasons I stated.
> Failure to follow the convention does affect the quantity/quality of
> any responses you receive. And that is what this list is all about.
> Asking a question and, maybe, getting a helpful response. It's mainly
> about exchanging information about systems and methods of operation.
> It's not a dedicated 'newbie' list and it isn't about advocacy
> concerning any subject matter including top posting.

no, its not. Its like you state yourself below. I'll comment then.

> The day to day output of this list makes this kind of topic a
> distraction. Especially since it has been dealt with in numerous
> postings in the past.

exactly my point. Every time I get into this conversation, it's because
someone went out of their way to specifically and only to "tisk tisk" me.
I also have been a list member, on and off, long enough to know that this does
only what you state.

> Check out the archives (I've determined from
> your previous posts that you know how to google through the archives)
> to determine how list members responded to top posting in the past and
> CONVENTION of bottom posting with trimming. It's an implicit agreement
> because that is the way it is done in the vast majority of posts.
> Someone really shouldn't join the list and decide that their personal
> opinion should override an ESTABLISHED convention.

why don't you check out the archives. you don't see any of my posts being
only to tisk someone for bottom posting. You do see me stick up for myself
when someone does it to me. Hell just search for Patrick and My name.

If you look at those docs, there *is* a way to follow the spirit with
top-posting for the same reasons stated for bottom.

> > I can find just as many documents written to support both methods.
> Ok, I challenge you on this statement. I quickly googled the subject
> and found an astonishing imbalance of top to bottom posting support.
> You're invited to send me your research results offlist.

This is what I meant. If you search for reasonable arguments for either
opinion you will find the same results either way.

like you don't find more reasons for top than bottom. all reasons I've found
or experienced can be equally argued both ways.

even if your implying top to mean both top and full quoting (which is maybe
two different things)

top = can save because you can eliminate previous messages, no need to keep
past with current copy at hand
bottom = (trimming) less in each message with more messages

top = all one direction starting from top
bottom = all one direction starting from bottom

> > > For example, if you are attempting to master karate it is a common
> > > tradition/convention to remove your shoes prior to entering the
> > > dojo.
> > >
> > > ::snip, snip::
> >
> > Depends on the thinking again. If someone believes in themselves
> > (The karate instructor), and they see someone not conforming, this
> > would mean, *newbie* or *new customer* and I would give them ~extra
> > attention.
> I disagree totally. But the point is that the 'newbie' must take
> responsiblity to learn the basic conventions concerning any endeavor
> s/he pursues. That is common sense. Not taking personal
> responsibility, according to many Sensei with whom I've dealt, is a
> major sign of disrespect.

I take responsibility, again, search the archives. Every time I've argued my
points (because someone went out of their way to "tisk tisk" me) to the
bottom poster cops, I do it bottom posted quoted.

> > If someone is closed minded, and needs everyone to conform to them to
> > have them feel better, then I'm sure they would ignore this potential
> > great customer to avoid having to be respectful or make any effort
> > themselves (elitist?)
> There are no customers on this list! Not in the sense that you're

There ARE customers on this list in the sense that I'm implying. I am one of

> implying. This list consists of a large group of people who are
> pooling their knowledge and expertise for the growth and betterment of
> the general Linux/Suse community of users. This kind of advocacy

I thought you said (from above)
> Asking a question and, maybe, getting a helpful response. It's mainly
> about exchanging information about systems and methods of operation.
> It's not a dedicated 'newbie' list and it isn't about advocacy
> concerning any subject matter including top posting.

That it wasn't about growth(customers) or advocacy ("betterment of the general
Linux/Suse community of users).

Well, at any rate, I agree with you. That IS my point (the whole reason I'm
wasting this space and time).

> dissuades many from participating because the have neither the time nor
> inclination to deal with this kind of BS. I wouldn't be surprised if
> you and I and this thread have already been 'PLONKED' and denied in
> many readers.

> > Like this email, You obviously prefer bottom posting and trimming.
> > I'm respecting you with this style of reply. You deserve it because
> > your stating your *opinion*.
> I post and respond this way because it is painfully obvious to me
> (archives) that this is the preferred method within this particular
> list. And I am a respecter of people, whether I agree with their
> particular position or not.
Again, I agree and this is my point. Why go through the effort to "tisk tisk"

> > Would you be so quick to respond to someone using their style?
> I do so daily within my corporate email system. That is the established
> mode prevalent within my company. I'm not crazy about it especially
> when an email has a long history which mangles the content. But I
> comply because that is the mode of operation within that particular
> group.

So do I comply with the few bottom poster cops that go out of their way to be
disruptful, or do I do the best I can to all the people involved the best way
I know how.

I choose to be respectful.

> > > On this list you have many Linux and Suse guru's who are intimately
> > > familiar with the inner beat of the kernel and this distribution.
> > > I would go out on a limb and state that nearly 100% of those
> > > experts find top posting annoying.
> > >
> > > ::Snip::
> >
> > where are these conventions setup? I don't see my top-posted simple
> > answers being rejected from the list.
> The convention is set up in the history of the list (archives) from
> which anyone should be able to grasp the general consensus.
> > > Hope this helps
> >
> > how? bottom-posters have valid reasons for their style. top-posters
> > can also have reasons. because I have taken the time to listen to
> > your reasoning for bottom-posting, are you going to listen to mine?
> Listen Brad, just like in real life, you do what you think is best and
> you live with the consequences. C'est la vie!



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