On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 05:52:54PM +0200, houghi wrote:

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 04:55:01PM +0200, houghi wrote:

...

I will see if I can get a page together that would look like I would prefere it. Should be ready somewhere later today or tonight.

Damn, That is hard to do. I am used to work solely with css and looking at tables is no fun. Any change of making a solely css page without the tables mess in it? If yes, I am willing to gie it a try. If not, I don't even start.

Made two small changes. 1) Added a link to Bug report 2) Made the left <h3> the same as the center. I would also perhas place the 'Google code of summer' in the center block. -- But I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 26 July 2006 17:52, houghi wrote: Hi,

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 04:55:01PM +0200, houghi wrote:

Damn, That is hard to do. I am used to work solely with css and looking at tables is no fun. Any change of making a solely css page without the tables mess in it?

please don't. Using CSS to place things in the content area will eventually break the whole page in case the general wiki template changes (e.g. when updating to a new MediaWiki version). I would like to ensure that we never need to touch single pages when we change the template and the corresponding CSS. Apart from that, I tried to avoid tables as much as possible. It is just _one_ table with the simplest layout that is possible: one row, two columns, so it's just KISS. -- Tschau Frank -- Frank Sundermeyer, SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.suse.de/ Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane Dogbert --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 27 July 2006 10:28, houghi wrote: Hi,

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 10:10:44AM +0200, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:

...

please don't. Using CSS to place things in the content area will eventually break the whole page in case the general wiki template changes (e.g. when updating to a new MediaWiki version).

Ok, I should complain to MediaWiki not to use tables. :-/

...

I would like to ensure that we never need to touch single pages when we change the template and the corresponding CSS.

Indeed. That would be possible if using only CSS and no tables at all. However that is a MediaWiki issue and not an openSUSE issue. (Even /. uses css nowadays. :-)

you got me wrong ;-). The MediaWiki templates do not use tables - it's all css. To me, an openSUSE web page consists of two parts: the one that is generated from the template and the one that a user enters (the content part). Both parts should be completely independent from each other. So no matter how the template part changes, the content part must always remain unchanged. The table I have used to position the two columns is within the content part. My fear is that if we use CSS to position the columns, the content layout will no longer be independent from then template layout. But maybe I am wrong here.

...

Apart from that, I tried to avoid tables as much as possible. It is just _one_ table with the simplest layout that is possible: one row, two columns, so it's just KISS.

Not having looked at tabled at all for so long, it isn't exactly KISS to me. ;-)

Well, this is the table code I used: <table> <tr> <td></td> <td></td> </tr> </table> not too complicated, I think ;-)).

For thos who don't get it, I hate tables, especially if they are used to place content on a website. ;-)

Using a table (not nested tables, of course) is sometimes much easier. -- Tschau Frank -- Frank Sundermeyer, SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.suse.de/ Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane Dogbert --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

houghi a écrit :

It is easier when you want to stick to one design for always. Changing later is easier when done without tables.

tables is nice for single pages, not for general layout, of course jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

houghi a écrit :

For thos who don't get it, I hate tables, especially if they are used to place content on a website. ;-)

I don't see why. I like tables :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Marcus Rueckert a écrit :

On 2006-07-27 12:56:52 +0200, jdd wrote:

...

I don't see why. I like tables :-)

*bans jdd from doing layout* :p

tables are so last century.

darix

tables are fast but don't forget we are speaking of single page layout, here, not general site one (of course, there css are nice - I use server side include for that) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 27 July 2006 13:14, Marcus Rueckert wrote: Hi,

On 2006-07-27 13:06:48 +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Marcus Rueckert a écrit :

...

On 2006-07-27 12:56:52 +0200, jdd wrote:

...

I don't see why. I like tables :-)

*bans jdd from doing layout* :p

tables are so last century.

darix

tables are fast

they are not. they are bloated. they are inflexible.

please - we should not start another religious war here, unless the GNOME vs KDE and emacs vs vi wars are fought out ;-)). BTW: We are talking about a _single_ table with a _single_ row on a _single_ page. Someone send me a version with css (without changing anything within the template area) and guarantee me that it will not get broken with the next template updates and I will implement it. -- Tschau Frank -- Frank Sundermeyer, SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.suse.de/ Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane Dogbert --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 27 July 2006 13:24, houghi wrote: Hi,

I am talking about consitency throughout the openSUSE.org domain, including the wiki and e.g. also the mailinglist pages. It should all be done by the same css file with the same layout idea behind it.

yup. AFAIK the new mailinglist server will go online soon (henne will know when). And yes, it has got the openSUSE design. I finished the skin for it a few days ago. -- Tschau Frank -- Frank Sundermeyer, SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.suse.de/ Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane Dogbert --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 01:43:15PM +0200, jdd wrote:

yes. but the only table we are speaking about is the front page table and is only used for the central part and the right news column one see only on the front page.

That is for now and it is not just one page, it is one page for each language for now. The moment you want to change the frontpage, you need to change each language. If future pages want to use a similar layout, you need to change those as well.

and, for example, translating from english to french gives often longer sentences that don't fit well is the small prensent width, so it may be better to have a slightly larger news column in french than in englis. It's not (easily) possible with css, but very easy with tables.

That will break the consistency of the website, exactly the thing I want to avoid. Even then an inline css can(will?) overrule the pre-designed css file. -- houghi Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it. -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Christoph Thiel a écrit :

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006, jdd wrote:

...

houghi a écrit :

...

For thos who don't get it, I hate tables, especially if they are used to place content on a website. ;-) I don't see why. I like tables :-)

From a accessibility point of view, tables really suck a lot. Did you ever try to browse a page that used table-based design with a screen-reader (for blind or visually handicapped people)?

w3m is perfect with my home page (www.dodin.net) this is much better than flash anims we can see all around. When I'm at my mothers home (she got a computer 6 year ago for her 80th anniversary), I can perfectly browse my web site and not at all openSUSE one :-( (phone modem, 56k) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Frank Sundermeyer a écrit :

On Thursday 27 July 2006 13:12, jdd wrote:

Hi,

...

When I'm at my mothers home (she got a computer 6 year ago for her 80th anniversary), I can perfectly browse my web site and not at all openSUSE one :-( (phone modem, 56k)

your page is probably cached and opensuse isn't. ;-))

Just kidding.

the truth is that a wiki (at least mediawiki) is not good for fast browsing. but browsing the web nowaday with a 56k connexion is a real pain :-( jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Frank Sundermeyer a écrit :

http://www.suse.de/~fs/opensuse/home_jdd.html

this is much better, however I don't see why Google of summer have a special treatment and I nearly missed completely the documentation column. It has nothing to do on the bottom right jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 01:40:54PM +0200, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:

I thought the news more important than the "Getting help" link list. But these two boxes can be swapped of course, if everyone agrees. I do not see any other alternative.

As the news is very infrequent at this moment, I would swap them. If news becoms so frequent, we can see what we can do about it then. I think the purpose of the main page is to get people as fast to the information on the wiki as possible. I think using an rss feed might be a better way to get news (and anouncements) across, incombination with the mailinglist. That however is a whole different subject. -- houghi Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it. -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 26 July 2006 17:42, Christoph Thiel wrote: Hi,

First of all, I really enjoyed the revised designs! But there is one thing, that I'd like to bring up for discussion: Do you guys actually like the icons? IMHO they should be a bit smaller. In addition to that I have the feeling that we aren't following a clear style when it comes to icons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we are kind of mixing different icon sets (that use different color palettes) on the front page? Some of them tend to look KDE-like. Others don't.

well, I am no designer - somebody create a nice, consistent set of icons for openSUSE and everybody will be happy to use it ;-). I just took what I found at http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Icons and btw, I do not think they are too heterogeneous.

On the splash thingy: How about using a white background? Looking at http://www.wikipedia.org/, we could just use openSUSE as a heading + the geeko/openSUSE logo in the middle of the page and group our different languages around them.

Already did that as a very first draft for a splash screen and didn't liked it. Anyway, here it is: http://www.suse.de/~fs/opensuse/splash_white.html

Having a search box with the drop-down menu to select a language on the bottom of the page might be nice to have as well.

Sounds interesting. -- Tschau Frank -- Frank Sundermeyer, SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.suse.de/ Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane Dogbert --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 11:28:04AM +0200, Christoph Thiel wrote:

...

Already did that as a very first draft for a splash screen and didn't liked it. Anyway, here it is: http://www.suse.de/~fs/opensuse/splash_white.html

That's nice! How about using a bigger openSUSE logo? And maybe adding some stats on each wiki (like "1000+ pages") below each language, using smaller letters of course.

Indeed much better already, yet it still feels as if it does not belong to the rest of the website. The moment you choose a language, it suddenly looks and feels completely different. Something I also dislike about http://wikipedia.org My proposal http://houghi.org/suse/home_houghi2.html would take care of that. ;-)

We could also try to place a direct link to download.openSUSE.org on the splash / portal page, to always highlight the latests version and get people to download openSUSE!

Yes, yes, yes. See my earlier remarks of having a link to ONLY the latest stable version. And that needs to be done in one go.

But adding a seach box to it is much more important IMO :)

My proposal gives you the search in the place where you expect it to be. Having the search in different languages on each page, is that something worth thinking about (stating the page of the language as a default). e.g. when I am on a page that is not in Dutch, I could still search for Dutch content. OTOH, we are talking about just one page. Just put something there and let us get on with it. We will never find something everybody will like. -- houghi Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it. -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Christoph Thiel a écrit :

Yeah, we need designers... desperately ;)

Mandriva organises a challenge to find designers (sort of Google of summer), may be Novell could do so also? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 01:02:41PM +0200, jdd wrote:

Christoph Thiel a écrit :

...

We could also try to place a direct link

no :-(. A hub must stay a hub, to be used only of nothing else is available :-)

I agree, however the opensuse.org/Download is not good. Who is willing (daring) to re-write it in such a way that people can start downloading the moment you get to that page? I am thinking, but can not come up with a good solution that does not ned re-writing at least three pages. I will start a new thread about that. -- houghi Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it. -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 01:44:21PM +0200, jdd wrote:

houghi a écrit :

...

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 01:02:41PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Christoph Thiel a écrit :

...

We could also try to place a direct link no :-(. A hub must stay a hub, to be used only of nothing else is available :-)

I agree, however the opensuse.org/Download is not good. Who is willing (daring) to re-write it in such a way that people can start downloading the moment you get to that page?

I am thinking, but can not come up with a good solution that does not ned re-writing at least three pages.

I will start a new thread about that. http://fr.opensuse.org/Téléchargement

I am only looking at the en page, sorry. I also thought that the idea was that there were certain pages that were only ment to be translated. This is again something I am against, because it breaks consistency. Why is that page not the same as the other languages? Either the en.* page is good and fr should follow, or the en.* is not good and fr.* should follow as soon as it changes. -- houghi Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it. -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 01:50:55PM +0200, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:

So maybe linking directly to

http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Downloads_SUSE_Linux_10.1

is what you want?

Yes, something like that, but then on a page by itself. That should be all there is on the page Download (with two or three extra links). As KISS as possible, because that will be how people who want to try it out will percieve how Linux and/or SUSE is. The above on a single page would enhance the feeling of easiness a lot. A way on how not to do it is the Debian site. ;-) -- houghi Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it. -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org