On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 02:37:36PM +0200, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Providing the right info for everyone _is_ complicated. I think it makes SUSE look well documented. Its not a simple page with some links to isos where the user is left alone and has to figure out what he wants/needs. We take all users, no matter how experienced, trough the choices they have to take before the download starts.

The difference here is that you are FORCED to go through two large webpages. SUSE does not need all that much information. Even the menu items are removed, so I actually need to scroll and read as if it were some legal anouncement.

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Only at the bottom do I see two versions.

Not true. The structure of the document shows you two versions too. The table at the end is just a "quickbar".

You asume that people read the documentation. I am sure you areaware that people don't read the documentation. If you don't believe me, ask anybody who has ever worked in a helldesk. ;-)

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I then arrive at another page that I must read (Is SUSE really that hard?)

Its not hard, it has options. Many usefull, hard worked on options. Options we shouldnt hide somewhere. Options that make openSUSE the good distro it is.

That makes it hard in my eyes. Why can't I just download and install, beacuse that is what people want to do.

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What I would prefere is that http://en.opensuse.org/Download only holds the latest version for the standard end-user, e.g. 10.1

Whats the "standard end-user" and who defines that?

The standard user is the user who just wants to download the ISO and get on with it. All the extra information should be elsewhere.

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two or three links: How to install and additional information.

You are trying to reproduce the installation manual with this. No need to do this.

It was just an idea. There are pages on the wiki that already do this.

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The additional information could hold links to Alpha and Beta software, all information that is now given on the pages and that probably most people don't read anyway.

"standard end-user", "probably", "most". You couldnt be more imprecise. :)

Yes, I could. I could also be more precise. However as this is not a statement, I did not do that.

Im sorry but as long as you dont come up with a layout that makes it better for everyone (not only the imprecise small group of the standard end-user that exists in your head) im all against it.

Please be a little open minded. You and I know that it is impossible to do any change that is better for everyone. If that is what you demand, then please just fix all pages, because never will everyone experience it as better. -- houghi Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it. -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 03:39:06PM +0200, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

And? Ask yourself these questions:

Does it hurt you if you know what you are doing to click 2 times?

Yes, because I know it could have been in one time.

Does it hurt you if you have no fsckn clue what to download and how if this information is burried away somewhere?

As it is now, yes, because with too much information it is confusing.

And let me tell you: what you are stating is not true at all. Most users read documentation.

I have first hand information that people don't read information. At least not enough. The minority that does won't mind looking at an extra page. I don't want to remove the information.

Its the lack of good documentation that makes users unsure about the choices they have to take.

The way you go from the fromload page to the actual download is lack of good documentation.

Because you have to make some choices before you can "just download and install". And these choices are explained in the pages.

There are way too many unneeded choices to be made in the steps between clicking 'download' and doing the actual download.

I am open minded. In fact i think you are not. You want to reduce the usefulness of the download page to most of the people and concentrate on users who know what choices they have to take to spare them 2 clicks...

No, I want to simplify the process of going from the download button to the actual download. Top me the download page is not a download page, it is information about a download page. In no way do I want to remove information. There is just too much at the same time at the wrong time. -- houghi Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it. -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

You want to hide it. Thats not exactly removing but it comes close ;)

no. Make it short. a link to the relevant page is better. The download real part (the table or similar) must be visible on any screen at the bottom.

So following your argumentation linking from the index page to some directory with iso files in it would be the best documentation? Hmmmmm

nobody said so.

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Because you have to make some choices before you can "just download and install". And these choices are explained in the pages.

most of these choices have no interest. what is the part of the users that uses 32bits PC (i386)? what is the part of the users that could use 32 bits PC? probably a bit more (amd64 can use it) so we probably should have at the very top of the page a message: You have a reader with "DVD" in front of it, a computer running an i386 processor and want to try openSUSE, go here (direct link to an live installable SUSE DVD) You have an AMD 64 and want full power go here (link to a live dvd 64 bits) other hardware read more... (...)

Which choice is unneeded? Tell me please...

the choice of downloading the development version should probably not be available on this very same page, but on the development side of the web site. only experienced users are needed here. this is probably the main problem of the download page. When first written, there was only a development version (10.0 alpha) and the casual user was not at home there. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

Does it hurt you if you know what you are doing to click 2 times?

yes. It's not only clicking but browsing through two nearly similar pages. Documentation must be at hand but nobody must never feel forced to do anything. this is _very_ unfriendly and good documentation _must_ be friendly to have any interest at all.

And let me tell you: what you are stating is not true at all. Most users read documentation.

yes. Once. but not anytime they come at the same place.

I am open minded. In fact i think you are not. You want to reduce the usefulness of the download page to most of the people and concentrate on users who know what choices they have to take to spare them 2 clicks...

well if such statement should be a rule here, I think most of us would resign very fast. I think we all work for the good of the users. you, me, Houghi, anybody here. may be you are working for SUSE for 4 years, But I teached for 40 years now and I know how people learn. or I don't know and only thing I do :-). This have little importance. here some basis I think _are_ very important (trying to be positive :-): * people want to have documentation at hand. Do they read or not is of little importance, they want it. * people don't want to be forced to do anything. most people don't read documentation before installing a distribution. ** they read doc to know if they are to use this distro. Is it good for me? ** they read doc _after_ having begun to work with the distribution ** they read the doc to fix some working problem * reading doc is a punishment, not a gift. So you must have to do this the least you can, and only the part you need, and only once. * trying first, looking at the doc after _is a good thing_. * The very newby is rare, nowaday. Nearly anybody have at least seen a keyboard, used a cd reader, so there must be a separate part for this kind of user. I don't really beleive that any web site can adresse this (be able to read a wiki is not for very newbie) * so the web site clients (as opposite to boxed manual ones) have at least a varnish of computer use. we can expect them to know: - what kind of processor uses they computer (mac, solaris, PC) I'm unsure how we can adresse the 32 bits/ 64 bits problem. I had to do for windows and had to abandon it :-( so may be the first question at all should be this one: what kind of computer do you use. - do they have a dvd reader or not. I know many people that don't know. cd and dvd are alike. A friend of mine (he uses a computer a work all the day) tried for days to make a video dvd read by his computer and failed. He not even understand what I said when I asked him if his reader was cd or dvd. so a small clue is important (my dvd readers are labelled on front "DVD", is this true for all of them?) more later :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

web-page and the options have to be explained. Now tell me which option should we leave out?

o Stable or Development

yes, we should have a download page for the stable version only. The development version should be linked from the development part of the site. Now it interests only a minority of the users (there can be a link at the bottom of the page "you want to test beta'S?)

o Installation type

yes. the dvd installation should be the only extremely visible one. of course, they must be also the others ways, but only for users coming here for the second time at least, and with they own page so the user can bookmark the page

o Arch

this is the most important one, downloading the wrong image is not a good idea. we should have (may be) _only_ this choice in the first page (making a decision tree is what html is made for)

o Download type

most people don't understand anything at this. anywhere you clic a link and the file come.

Each of these options is vital for the decision what, where and how to download.

wrong. 80% of the users (probably, may be more) can download one dvd image (i386) and go with it. and see the point. having a _live_ _dvd_ _installable_ _smaller than 2Gb_ is so important I don't understand why openSUSE don't have it yet. I'm very glad this discussion come now with real power user (you and others Novell folks). Thanks for that. think differently. If you are true, openSUSE is _not_ well done. we _can_ simplify this. and I don't say it's easy, but others do. How many time did Knoppix take to becomme popular? why? we must keep the (very great) quality of SUSE and the ease of use of others. look at the french page. I tried to make it the more alike english one while easier to read. it's probably not that good and can be largely enhanced, but as you may see all the doc is here at hand, but much less intimidating http://fr.opensuse.org/Download In fact I think we should simplify much the tables as already said. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Very draft example to explain what I mean http://fr.opensuse.org/Utilisateur:Jdd_sysop/example jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Thursday, July 27, 2006 at 17:58:49, houghi wrote:

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 05:35:53PM +0200, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

You have to express the options the user has on a static web-page and the options have to be explained. Now tell me which option should we leave out?

o Stable or Development o Installation type o Arch o Download type

Development. The rest is in http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Downloads_SUSE_Linux_10.1 And that is what I would put on Download together with the extra information I mentioned in the first posting.

So present an cryptic table first and on click documentation? I still dont like that at all... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, http://hennevogel.de "To die. In the rain. Alone." Ernest Hemingway --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

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So present an cryptic table first and on click documentation? I still dont like that at all...

I don't neither.

most users will download an iso image. There must be first a documentation about writing this image (the writer's applications are not very obvious on this subject)

But this documentation must not come too invasive as many users also know about it (and will know after the first use)

I think also it's not usefull to bother the fisrt time user whith bitorrent or net install that requires a minimal expertise. this will be good for future download, so no table as first choice

jdd

One issue bothers me. What percentage of the users have a DVD _burner_ on their machine? I would guess if someone is bold enough to try to download an operating system, they probably know what they have. However, if their machine is more than a couple of years old do they have a DVD burner? If most visitors have a DVD burner, then the download page should probably start of with a line like this: To download an iso DVD image of openSUSE v 10.1 for i386 machines click here Otherwise, ..... This would cover what, 70% of the downloads? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 12:30:13PM +1000, Peter Flodin wrote:

We possibly do need a "How to get openSUSE" page, which is separate to a simpler "Download" page. From the front we then can link to the How to get page.

houghi < Remind me to write an article on the compulsive reading of news. The

Yes. What do you see as the content of such a page? -- theme will be that most neuroses can be traced to the unhealthy habit of wallowing in the troubles of five billion strangers. -- Heinlein --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

The suggestions go a totally different route. The one where we are just presenting what we have (the download table) and then offer to guide on demand. No layout is objective "better" than the other.

presenting all the options on the same page is not a "guide" what I think is than we must have a more pedagogic way to precisely guide the users. Don't forget any user hav the ability to bookmark a page. So once his choice is done he should be able to bookmark the relevant page and don't have to bother after that. and most user don't have anyway to bother with most options. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org