On Friday 08 November 2002 1:29 pm, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

a) why do you want to play with something SuSE does not support

I can see the force of the points you and Anders are making. However, I think part of the problem is that YOU is not itself a very impressive setup - I have had far more problems with it than with apt, and in fact if you go over the list you will find many threads relating to "unexpected features" with it. I would, in line with your comments, advocate a "warning" somewhere on the apt site, to the effect that this software is not supported by SuSE, may do unexpected (by you the user) things to your setup, and should not be used until at least 6 months after you have installed Linux for the first time. As regards Mark's reaction, it takes a certain firmness of purpose to delete your OS without trying to retrieve the situation :-) Kevin

On Friday 08 November 2002 08:29, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

* Anders Johansson; on 08 Nov, 2002 wrote:

...

If Richard Bos doesn't stop advocating alpha-grade software for use by newbies I'm going to get seriously pissed off

I think it is a two way road. ( maybe more) First off all let's assume it is not alpha grade.

a) On a production system ( ie that you are using daily basis) I would not even think to stay on the edge for any software including the kernel)

b) On a production system I would only use tools that are made by SuSE for SuSE so I would not create problems while maintaining the system ( note maintaining is used as security updates not developing edge)

Well, not to disagree with one of the gurus of the list, but I have run into considerable grief by just running a YOU on the wrong day. The archives of this list are littered with the bones of other people who have encountered the same. In fact, my approach to YOU (now, anyway) is to watch the list and see if a few days go past *without* people complaining that "I just did a YOU update and all my WXYZ stopped working!" Then, I cross my fingers and activate YOU, and hope that I'm in the middle of a "stable" period between dangerous/flaky YOU passes. That's for my office laptop. At home, it's my personal-stuff and "fun" machine. On that one, I tried apt-get and synaptic. I'm still trying to dig myself out of that hole... maybe I'll have some time this weekend.

Now since apt-get is not a specific SuSE tool any software installed with it has the potential of creating problems with future SuSE updates, upgrades. (that is how I see it)

For newcomers here is my dumb question if you are still trying to figure out the internals of SuSE Linux

a) why do you want to play with something SuSE does not support b) If you prefer to have apt-get either use Debian or Connectiva (which was the first to have apt-4rpm )

I guess because, from my perspective at the bottom of the heap, all the knowledgeable people look alike (well, some are friendlier and more detailed than others, but it's not possible to judge their relative credibility), so when two or ten of them suggest something like apt-get as a solution for a) a problem that I have (or one that sounds like it) or b) a problem that I'm going to have soon, because I've decided to install/configure something and people have been talking about their experiences with it... then, I tend to take them seriously.

But the best of all if apt-get users can have a separete mailinglist so if there are problems they solve it there. This providing the possibility of the new comers never hearing of apt-rpm ( I know this is not good for marketing Richard) but we may minimize the impact of the possible problems

Well, it would probably solve a lot of problems if Richard would include a regular sig like: "Kids: Do not try this at home! If you are not ANSWERING more questions than you are ASKING on the list, then you are not qualified to use this software without adult supervision."

I have been monitoring this list in detail ( that is since SuSEFAQ started I stop deleting threads I don't like) the majority of the problems are arising from installing the developing edge applications and this is sad.

Well, this is such a difficult area -- what is a developing-edge application? That may sound like a dumb question, to which the answer is a simple: "anything that has a version number less than 1.0". However, look at OpenOffice.org. That one was released at 1.0.0 less than a year ago. So it must have been edgy, developmental software up until that time, right? Well, no. The same basic code is used for StarOffice 6.0. Now, StarOffice went through a period of "point" releases before it ever hit 1.0, and then it's had several years to go through the full integers from 1 through to 6. Please don't tell me that *that* is a risky, developmental software. Meanwhile, there are common utilities and apps that have been in widespread use, and are considered basics for everybody's toolbox, and they have yet to achieve 0.9 release, even though they've been having point-dot-point releases for several years.

My understanding is use the system as it is designed to maximize outcome

Well, that sounds good, too, except that my experience with (say) YaST is that it does many things quite well, but it hides many things and does not give the possibility of optional approaches within its interface. I've had several such experiences, one of which is the printer setup. It seems obvious to me that many people need to access printers that are not on the same subnet or segment as their PC, but the YaST print configuration searches only within the local subnet, and doesn't give an option to type in the base address of neighboring subnets, so as to widen the search and include more printers/servers. So, immediately I must exit YaST2 and go into a succession of config files... which sorta defeats the purpose of using YaST2, doesn't it? Just one example. So, the point here is that if a tool comes along that seems to offer similar updating/installing capabilities, but with a bit more transparency, us newbies (real) and newbies (perennial slow learners) take it out for a spin. Thus, the tool itself should have perhaps a novice and an expert mode, with various nags and expository text files (maybe even links to some of the recent threads on this list? :-) for the newbies, which could be turned off for the advanced user. For example, when we see that a whole s**t-load of packages are going to be uninstalled, we remember YOU doing that on a regular basis... after which it re-installs same-or-newer versions to keep the rest of the system working, while permanently removing only the one app/package (in a dependency jungle) that was actually desired to uninstall. So, then it's a surprise when apt-get uninstalls a bunch of stuff to get one program uninstalled, but then doesn't bother to put back all the other connected ones that the user wants to keep. A big, red, flashing message: "Hey, Bozo. Half of your system is going to go away if you continue! Reconsider!" would have been appropriate right about there... Actually, I'm still not sure... if I want to use lprng, I get nasty messages that says "This application conflicts with CUPS". In YaST, there was no way (at least not obvious) to "just disable what's appropriate to make lprng work, without killing half of KDE". Is it true, then, that if you are running a full implementation of KDE, then your printing is done via CUPS/KUPS and you are not allowed other options? If you want to install JUST a printing capability that is not CUPS, then you are required to sacrifice most-of/all-of KDE due to dependencies and conflicts? This is the impression I'm gathering from recent postings along with my experience when I installed 8.0 last year. Either it's true, but was never really explained anywhere, or it's false, but I've been getting some wrong messages lately to make me think that way. Anyway, that's the perspective from down here in the Linux/SuSE gutter. /kevin

On Friday 08 November 2002 13:32, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

* Kevin McLauchlan; on 08 Nov, 2002 wrote:

[...]

Now it is woth to mention that I do not have any of the cutting edge softwares' applications installed system wide. Not that I do not install them but they are only avaliable via my $PATH and they are basicly Docbook related stuff where they will not affect the system.

Er, could you expand on that? Not Docbook, but what you mean about "system wide" versus "only available in my $PATH"? I thought "in my $PATH" meant available from anywhere... system wide. [... about OOo 1.0.x ...]

...

Please don't tell me that *that* is a risky, developmental software.

No but playing around with KDE3.1 when it is not even it's beta stage would be cutting edge or using a 2.5.47 kernel is.

When I install 8.1 in a week (or three), I'll get whatever version of KDE is on the DVD (or on the CDs, if my Pioneer 116 DVD drive still doesn't boot... ahem.... and then, I'd take whatever YOU coughed up for updates... until the time when one of the many broken things on my system (there are multiple broken things each and every install, since 6.whatever when I started with SuSE) can be fixed by newer KDE (according to some guru or three, on this list, and my lack of sleep which will impair my judgement).

...

Well, that sounds good, too, except that my experience with (say) YaST is that it does many things quite well, but it hides many things and does not give the possibility of optional approaches within its interface.

Well I agree YaST does not do everything like if you remeber the thread couple of days ago regarding configuring apache while making sure SuSEconfig does not bark. That approach editing a new file and making sure /etc/sysconfig/apache has it and SuSEconfig --module apache will parse it is basicly understanding the limitation of what YaST can do and can not do. YaST is an ideal administration tool for a basic system.

Ah. Didn't see that, because I don't run apache... yet. But, if I did, and if I followed that advice, would I then be able to use YaST and YOU for all the other system stuff? Or would YaST/YOU constantly try to re-write the config files back to the earlier settings that broke apache? In other words, by taking the initiative to bypass YaST/YOU for one app, am I defacto abandoning it and condemning myself to do ALL updates by hand? I ask this because I know that YaST writes to config files (or sets up what will be written when SuSEConfig is run??) in a number of places, and it seems logical that it might overwrite hand-written edits "for my own good", the next time it's run. [...]

...

Thus, the tool itself should have perhaps a novice and an expert mode, with various nags and expository text files (maybe even links to some of the recent threads on this list? :-) for the newbies, which could be turned off for the advanced user.

Well I liked the approach but human nature always is curious about the expert or advanced option as "Novice" is not what majority would like to hear. So yes but :-)

Ok, but at least there'd be an obvious line-in-the-sand marking off relatively safe territory from "Here be dragons!" [...]

Well I agree that the rpm dependecy is a major headache. If you want something installed for example kdenetwork3 then immeiatle I am told to install ppp why on the earth some one thinks I have to install ppp maybe I am on a ethernet network and I have no intention of using "ppp" but I think it is a packaging philosophy and to find the right combination will take time

Now you can remove ppp package but then you welcome the future problems

toganm@earth:~/projects/sfnet/suse/website> sudo rpm -evvv --test ppp D: opening database mode 0x0 in /var/lib/rpm D: requires: ppp unsatisfied. D: package kdenetwork3 require not satisfied: ppp error: removing these packages would break dependencies: ppp is needed by kdenetwork3-3.0.4-6

So what I learnt, to live with it and I have no headaches when I install a package (knock the wood)

That's you. But, you probably know how to disable ppp or direct its efforts to null, or something. I, on the other hand, would find that my network and ISP connections (via my router and ADSL modem) had been usurped by a ppp that I didn't need-or-want, and every time I tried to browse a URL, I'd have an error message saying "Modem not responding" or pppd not configured". I just made that up (although, I think I had that in 7.3 when I first got ADSL...hmm), but it's an example of the weird things I've come to almost expect. Everywhere. With sound, with DVDs, with USB-anything, with fonts, with joysticks, with 3D acceleration, with Java versus Javascript... with... name it. And my clock still refuses to keep proper time, even though it's correct in bios... aaaaaaaaaaah! /kevin

On Friday 08 November 2002 14.29, Togan Muftuoglu wrote: <snip very well put post> I couldn't agree more, Togan, except for the assumption that apt4rpm isn't alpha. I believe it is, and the problems people are having with it prove my point. Anders

Wait a minute... Isn't that how you get past newbie status? You make a thousand expensive mistakes and spend thousands of hours trying to recover from them, interfering with your work, your sleep, your marriage..., until one day you have accidentally absorbed enough knowledge -- or enough hard knocks -- that you begin to recognize connections and causes and effects? That's not the normal, approved approach? You mean I've been doing it wrong all this time? :-) /kevin On Friday 08 November 2002 07:57, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Friday 08 November 2002 13.53, Fancher, Mark (GEAE) wrote:

...

Last night, I installed APT. I followed the instructions for a client installation, which included:

apt-get update

apt-get check

"This will make sure that you have no unresolved dependencies between installed packages. If it complains, that this is not the case, try:" (it did)

apt-get -f install

After I did this, I saw a whole bunch of files deleting before my eyes..

KDE didn't work anymore. I couldn't even open a shell. Nothing worked but my mouse.

Went to the SuSE database, and found the instructions to delete Lilo and uninstall Linux. There're both gone now.

If Richard Bos doesn't stop advocating alpha-grade software for use by newbies I'm going to get seriously pissed off

-- ** DIR-ty DEEDS, and they're DONE dirt cheap. (Sing it, now...)

Op vrijdag 8 november 2002 17:34, schreef Jimmy Brake:

Hi,

I just got a brand new pcchips m841 mb, 1.6 gig Athlon XP, 512 Meg of 133 ram and a 30 gig HDD. I tried installing suse pro 8.1 and then suse pro 8.0 and both failed.... to find the nic/sound but did find the vga (which is really odd because it generally never finds built in vga).

FYI: the m841 is an all in one MB that I have intend to use in a 1u.

I have used several other MB's from pcchips and all have worked fine(except vga) and still are working but with suse pro 7.2.

I have not tried calling tech support, not sure if the hardware is on the supported list.

Thanks in Advance,

Jimmy

Please Jimmy, Start your own thread. This hasn't got anything to do with subject. so: new message to suse-linux-e@suse.com (and choose your own subject line) Marcel

On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Kevin McLauchlan wrote:

Wait a minute... Isn't that how you get past newbie status?

You make a thousand expensive mistakes and spend thousands of hours trying to recover from them, interfering with your work, your sleep, your marriage..., until one day you have accidentally absorbed enough knowledge -- or enough hard knocks -- that you begin to recognize connections and causes and effects?

That's not the normal, approved approach?

You mean I've been doing it wrong all this time?

:-)

Yes, Kevin, you have been doing it wrong. The right way is to read (on this list and others) about other people messing up their systems, and learn from trying to help them get their comps back in working order. Or, in other words: Keep your system safe and learn from others' mistakes. :-) Regards Ole

->> If Richard Bos doesn't stop advocating alpha-grade software for use by newbies ->> I'm going to get seriously pissed off Well, most of this issue is that people who don't RTFM are using this software. It's also a problem of people not knowing how this software works. If one is going to use something like apt which is correctly discribed as 3rd party, not supported software then they should understand what it's doing. They should go to the apt4rpm site and read about what they are using. This isn't case where one can get away with letting the VCR clock blink or something of that nature. I ran into a simular situation lastnight where apt wanted to upgrade the gimp-devel and gimp-help RPM's to the 1.3.9 pkgs from usr-local-bin, but it held back the gimp package. If the devel pkg was replaced I couldn't very well compile plugins and other such things. Apt told me it was going to upgrade these pkgs before it did it. So what did I do. I went into /etc/apt/apt.conf and put a hold on those two pkgs so that apt would ignore them when it upgraded the system. These were not critical updates so it's unlikely that SuSE will put out new pkgs unless there is a security flaw in them and then in that case it will be announced that there are Gimp updates on the SuSE Announce list. I will then go upgrade them myself...or run YOU which works fine with apt. It's simply a matter of people looking at the output of the software is giving them. And if they have a problem they can always send an email to this list or the apt lists if they can't look up the answer in the documentation. People tend to just trust the software they use to be smart enough to do what it should. This is absolutely not the case. Software is created by humans and therefore it will be flawed. People need to pay attention to what they are doing... this stuff isn't that hard and if they don't want to know what's going on then they should stick with the point and clicky tools that they are given that SuSE will support. If YaST2 is boinked then they can actually complain to SuSE about it. Apt isn't supported so a little more vigilence is need to understand WTF is going on. Also, I would say that calling apt alpha software is way off base. It's just requires a bit more reading and understanding of what is going on the some of the point and clicky software does. And Synaptic isn't in the point and clicky catagory because it's just a GUI to the program itself..it can't do anymore then the CLI version really can. Apt works just fine..but people need to pay attention and have some idea of what's going on in order to use it. I really wish SuSE had not reinvented the wheel with 8.1's YOU..and would have just written an YaST2 module that used apt..and that they would have contributed to apt which was already out there. But then again that's very typical.."If it's not written in house..it's crap." /end rant.. -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org Tell me what you believe.. I tell you what you should see.

* Anders Johansson (andjoh@rydsbo.net) [021108 12:12]: ->Absolutely. I clearly stated "for use by newbies". People who know better (or ->should) can use what they like, that's on no concern to me. But windows ->people who decide to try linux do not need to be exposed to things like that ->first thing. At the bottom of the learning curve they need to have tools that ->just work. And - at least mostly - that's true for SuSE's tools. Apt does just work. But if someone doesn't read "How it works" and just installs the software then fires it off to update the system, remove something or install a pkg..without knowing WTF their doing. I have absolutely no sympathy for them. I view it much the same way that if someone buy's a rifle and doesn't get lessons on how to use the weapon then shoots a toe off..they can't blame the gun maker..they blame themselves. If someone does something without having clue one on how that thing works is just not showing much intelligence. It's very disheartening that we praise and reward laziness with tools that make us more lazy. I'm not saying that users should spend every moment reading documentation in constant tweak mode when it comes to their computers, but damn if someone is going to use software or any other product they should at least have a some knowledge and be able to read the screen when the program says " The following package will be removed. Y/n?" If they aren't sure that these things should be removed then n is the right answer until they know what it is that's going on. *shrug* -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org Tell me what you believe.. I tell you what you should see.

On Friday 08 November 2002 21.39, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

* Anders Johansson (andjoh@rydsbo.net) [021108 12:12]:

->Absolutely. I clearly stated "for use by newbies". People who know better (or ->should) can use what they like, that's on no concern to me. But windows ->people who decide to try linux do not need to be exposed to things like that ->first thing. At the bottom of the learning curve they need to have tools that ->just work. And - at least mostly - that's true for SuSE's tools.

Apt does just work. But if someone doesn't read "How it works" and just installs the software then fires it off to update the system, remove something or install a pkg..without knowing WTF their doing.

OK, "without knowing WTF they're doing" would be my definition of a newbie. I remember when I sat down the first time in front of a unix (sunOS actually) system back in 1994. It was a very frightening experience. I had the advantage of meeting some very knowledgeable people, one in particular, who got me through the worst part of the initial phase, but it took me several years before I was really comfortable with the system. Now, I had a vested interest in learning more, partly because I was interested in computers, and partly because the comp sci institution I was at didn't have anything else. Windows users trying out linux don't have that vested interest and will turn back if they're faced with mountains of man pages for what is in essence a relatively trivial task - installing programs.

I have absolutely no sympathy for them.

Fair enough, I believe in advocacy. I want everyone to use linux.

I view it much the same way that if someone buy's a rifle and doesn't get lessons on how to use the weapon then shoots a toe off..they can't blame the gun maker..

There we differ. I do blame the gun maker, and the legislatures who allow them to manufacture guns. But that's way too OT.

they blame themselves. If someone does something without having clue one on how that thing works is just not showing much intelligence. It's very disheartening that we praise and reward laziness with tools that make us more lazy.

It's not a question of being lazy, it's a question of having a good place to start, when you're a newbie and don't even know enough terminology to understand the manpage of ls

I'm not saying that users should spend every moment reading documentation in constant tweak mode when it comes to their computers, but damn if someone is going to use software or any other product they should at least have a some knowledge and be able to read the screen when the program says " The following package will be removed. Y/n?"

Most people won't have a clue what "libgtk+" is or if it's ok to remove it. If you tell them "it's the basic library for the Gimp ToolKit" they won't be helped a great deal. Even if they should know what Gimp is most of them won't know what a library is, or what Gimp has to do with, for instance, nautilus. It's just too much knowledge to require from a complete newbie.

If they aren't sure that these things should be removed then n is the right answer until they know what it is that's going on. *shrug*

Which is likely to be never for most people.

On Friday 08 November 2002 23:58, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

My point was that if they don't understand what they are reading, don't care to read it or whatever the case maybe..they should stick with vendor supplied tools.

Great! That was exactly my point from the beginning. But over the past few months, whenever a newbie wanted to know how to install something, up popped Richard Bos telling him how wonderful apt is. I was just asking for that to stop. apt4rpm may be nice for people who know what they're doing, but people should know that it is for people who know what they're doing.

That's a heavy, heavy burden to put on Linux/OSS developers.

Yes it is, but I firmly believe it can be solved. I'm just not sure how yet.

Software is a PITA if you don't learn to use it...and it's a PITA to learn to use.

Yes it is, but it shouldn't have to be a PITA to install. Installation != configuration for the purposes of this argument. regards Anders