* Anders Johansson (andjoh@rydsbo.net) [021108 13:08]: ->OK, "without knowing WTF they're doing" would be my definition of a newbie. I wasn't' disputing that definition. :) ->I remember when I sat down the first time in front of a Unix (sun OS actually) ->system back in 1994. It was a very frightening experience. I had the ->advantage of meeting some very knowledgeable people, one in particular, who ->got me through the worst part of the initial phase, but it took me several ->years before I was really comfortable with the system. I don't disagree. ->Now, I had a vested interest in learning more, partly because I was interested ->in computers, and partly because the comp sci institution I was at didn't ->have anything else. Windows users trying out Linux don't have that vested ->interest and will turn back if they're faced with mountains of man pages for ->what is in essence a relatively trivial task - installing programs. I understand this and I wasn't saying they should be faced with this in every event. Apt has a nice webpage of "what is this and how do I use it." My point was that if they don't understand what they are reading, don't care to read it or whatever the case maybe..they should stick with vendor supplied tools. And if they can't read help files or whatever docs they need to use any of the tools..then there is a problem. This isn't a VCR. Whether one chooses Windows, MacOS or Linux..there are docs to read if one wants to become knowledgeable with the software. It's just not possible to escape this fact. If one doesn't know what one's doing then they are bound to get smacked in the face. A bit of resourcefulness isn't a big thing to ask for from someone. ->> I have ->> absolutely no sympathy for them. -> ->Fair enough, I believe in advocacy. I want everyone to use Linux. It's not that I don't..but I can't say I wanted everyone using a computer. As I've said this isn't a VCR..it's a complex machine with configuration option that need to be understood. Whether you vi a .conf file or put a check in a box..the only difference is whether you use a mouse or a keyboard. One should know what they are checking or typing into a .conf file or the shouldn't bloody mess with it. ->> they blame themselves. If ->> someone does something without having clue one on how that thing works is ->> just not showing much intelligence. It's very disheartening that we praise ->> and reward laziness with tools that make us more lazy. -> ->It's not a question of being lazy, it's a question of having a good place to ->start, when you're a newbie and don't even know enough terminology to ->understand the man page of ls Were not talking about just man pages. Hell, sometimes *I* don't understand these poorly written man pages. But I surely can understand a website with FAQ's and paragraphs of explanation..and if I can't then I post a note to this list or another list or I do a google search. Sometimes I'm lazy and do fire off email to the list first..but 9 out of 10 times I don't. ->> I'm not saying that ->> users should spend every moment reading documentation in constant tweak ->> mode when it comes to their computers, but damn if someone is going to use ->> software or any other product they should at least have a some knowledge ->> and be able to read the screen when the program says " The following ->> package will be removed. Y/n?" -> ->Most people won't have a clue what "libgtk+" is or if it's ok to remove it. If ->you tell them "it's the basic library for the Gimp ToolKit" they won't be ->helped a great deal. Even if they should know what Gimp is most of them won't ->know what a library is, or what Gimp has to do with, for instance, nautilus. ->It's just too much knowledge to require from a complete newbie. Yeah, whats you point? So it's more acceptable to install a Windows program and have it overwrite a .dll all the while not giving you any information that the software you just installed overwrote a .dll that 12 other programs use and now won't work because the user replaced it with a different version. Come on...that's really weak. I know Windows Admins who don't know what a lot of the .dll's on their systems are used for...what would be the excuse then? "Windows just does that..so wipe and reinstall." But Linux is suppose to hold their hands more so they don't get frustrated and leave. That's a heavy, heavy burden to put on Linux/OSS developers. ->> If they aren't sure that these things should ->> be removed then n is the right answer until they know what it is that's ->> going on. *shrug* -> ->Which is likely to be never for most people. Most people shouldn't own a computer. As a culture the last 10 years we've sold machines to people who have no business using them. We've done such things as tell them they can trade stocks..and lots of other boneheaded things to make money. There are some people in this world who are just to bloody stupid to understand this stuff. And there are people who are just to scared to learn..or to lazy. Until we just have terminal's that give a few basic choices to the user and are connected to some big central computer..it's never gonna change. Software is a PITA if you don't learn to use it...and it's a PITA to learn to use. Oh well. Such is life. :) Regards, -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org Tell me what you believe.. I tell you what you should see.