[opensuse] Re: Opensuse 11.0 Boot iso
On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:07:04 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Jim Henderson
wrote: Because relative to the number of users, your situation represents a fraction (or is perceived to) of the people who have that issue.
How do we determine that number? Does anyone really know? Would a 5% increase in users be worthwhile under that standard?
So, by the same logic, I should also be demanding that openSUSE not provide i586 packages, but i386 packages as well, because I have an old 33 MHz 80386 with 16 MB of RAM (which is sufficient to run a basic web server on), right? I mean really, there must be *millions* of old 80386 systems out there that *could* be running openSUSE. In fact, probably many, many more of those than systems that can't have a DVD added to them for a reasonable price.
openSUSE is a *community* effort, not a corporate effort. So rather than "blame" Novell for "not providing CDs", why not work with the community to see *how* a CD set could be built as a community contribution to the project?
I never accused anyone of anything.
My mistake; it was someone else who took on the "blame Novell" mentality in this thread.
I said that it was a bad mentality to try to encourage people to use Linux vs Vista when the target machines are older anyway. And, I offered to help out in anyway I could.
Suggestion: Look at the DVD structure, see what it would take to make a CD-based distribution. Ask questions about *that* instead. Like I said, it's a community project, so become part of the solution, since it's something you need and something you perceive there's many others who need. You could become a hero to those people by solving the problem rather than just complaining that there isn't a CD distribution available that works for you. You also could then experience first-hand either the success of doing something good, or better understand what it is that makes it more effort than it's worth.
I don't have a mirror site(although that is something I am looking into for the future). So long as we could get 1 site to host it, and have a link to that site, that would satisfy most. And, if that site started getting overwhelmed, then we would know that there was a definate demand.
It's not about being able to host it. It's about the time involved to build and test it.
Also keep in mind that a lot of people have DVD/CDRWs(like my thinkpad), so while it can READ a DVD, it can't write one. That becomes a problem as well.
And how many of those people know *nobody* who has a DVD burner? My 80- year-old mother can get a DVD burned without coming to me to do it. I know people in South Africa who have access to DVD burning technology. Saying "I don't have a DVD burner" is just an excuse. Show me *one* person who doesn't know someone with a DVD burner, and I still won't believe it.
Or why not just use the Live CDs (which CAN be used for install) and then install any missing packages from a local repo? That is a perfectly reasonable compromise. What's more, it ain't rocket science to actually *do* that.
Why do they say that KDE4 is experimental(or whatever) and not offer a KDE3 LiveCD? Also, like I pointed out, you can't remove KDE4 in favor of KDE3 without a hassle. Finally, some machines, like Old World Macs, can't boot LiveCDs.
Oh, so you're talking about PPC as well. And the segment who benefits gets that much smaller. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:21 PM, Jim Henderson
So, by the same logic, I should also be demanding that openSUSE not provide i586 packages, but i386 packages as well, because I have an old 33 MHz 80386 with 16 MB of RAM (which is sufficient to run a basic web server on), right? I mean really, there must be *millions* of old 80386 systems out there that *could* be running openSUSE. In fact, probably many, many more of those than systems that can't have a DVD added to them for a reasonable price.
Reasonable for people who might need it. Some might not be able to justify that expense. And I never suggested support for a 386. Just a CD version. I've seen P4 systems with CD only.
You also could then experience first-hand either the success of doing something good, or better understand what it is that makes it more effort than it's worth.
Not being a programmer, I help out by Beta testing.
And how many of those people know *nobody* who has a DVD burner? My 80- year-old mother can get a DVD burned without coming to me to do it. I know people in South Africa who have access to DVD burning technology. Saying "I don't have a DVD burner" is just an excuse. Show me *one* person who doesn't know someone with a DVD burner, and I still won't believe it.
That's not the point. Living in a rural area, I can attest that I wouldn't want to have to download an iso, put it on an external drive, and then take it to somewhere to burn it. That's what's called a hassle, and a lot of people who are just used to Windows aren't going to do that.
Oh, so you're talking about PPC as well. And the segment who benefits gets that much smaller.
So, since openSUSE is one of the few that actually supports Old World Macs, shall we drop that as well? Or shall we do what's neccessary to support the hardware we say it will run on? There are a lot of us who use PPC. So, we should just send that to the landfill? Is that what you are saying? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:34:35 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:21 PM, Jim Henderson
wrote: So, by the same logic, I should also be demanding that openSUSE not provide i586 packages, but i386 packages as well, because I have an old 33 MHz 80386 with 16 MB of RAM (which is sufficient to run a basic web server on), right? I mean really, there must be *millions* of old 80386 systems out there that *could* be running openSUSE. In fact, probably many, many more of those than systems that can't have a DVD added to them for a reasonable price.
Reasonable for people who might need it. Some might not be able to justify that expense. And I never suggested support for a 386. Just a CD version. I've seen P4 systems with CD only.
I know you never suggested support for a 386. I was saying "here's another relatively small market segment; maybe we should satisfy that as well". It's a point of comparison. I've seen P4 systems with CD only as well. I nearly purchased one. But if it were my only computer, I would still be likely to either upgrade the CD drive to a DVD, do a network-based installation (and if I didn't know how, I'd ask someone to help me), or borrow a drive if I was too poor to afford the $20 to buy a new one myself. In fact, years ago I had a 486 with no CD drive in it and I wanted to install UnixWare. I couldn't afford a CD drive at the time (the system was completely SCSI), and I did in fact borrow a SCSI CD-ROM drive from a friend so I could do the installation. The number of people who have no friends who could lend them a drive is going to be very small indeed.
You also could then experience first-hand either the success of doing something good, or better understand what it is that makes it more effort than it's worth.
Not being a programmer, I help out by Beta testing.
Same here. I can read code, and I can structure code, but my coding skills are crap for something as complicated as the kernel. I can write awk scripts and self-contained C, but nothing in C++ or anything that requires more than a cursory understanding of programming logic (well, maybe a bit more; I was a CS major in college). Point being, I'm not driven to code. That doesn't stop me suggesting solutions in code to the people who do. Not being a programmer needn't be a barrier to finding out what it would take.
And how many of those people know *nobody* who has a DVD burner? My 80- year-old mother can get a DVD burned without coming to me to do it. I know people in South Africa who have access to DVD burning technology. Saying "I don't have a DVD burner" is just an excuse. Show me *one* person who doesn't know someone with a DVD burner, and I still won't believe it.
That's not the point. Living in a rural area, I can attest that I wouldn't want to have to download an iso, put it on an external drive, and then take it to somewhere to burn it. That's what's called a hassle, and a lot of people who are just used to Windows aren't going to do that.
But you'd be OK downloading 5 or 6 ISOs to burn to a CD? I'm not following the logic here. Besides, you'd indicated you were talking about a notebook computer, surely that's portable. People who are just used to Windows aren't going to take the time to download an ISO first at all - since Winblows came with the computer, they'll just use that. The ones who go a step further and download the ISOs are very likely going to do so because someone suggested it to them and they did a little homework. My mom isn't going to say "Hmm, I wonder what this Linux thing is all about" and then proceed to download, burn, and install the product on her computer alongside or over her Windows installation. She's going to talk to people, she's going to ask for help. Most newbie users are like that - they don't make changes without knowing what they're doing because they don't want their machine to become a brick that they don't know how to recover. It seems that there are many people who think that newbies are going to shoot themselves in the head. I fear that many of those same hypothetical newbies might go out and buy firearms and not realize which way to hold the gun. Seriously, the way some act, they might just be that stupid. Fortunately, that ain't reality.
Oh, so you're talking about PPC as well. And the segment who benefits gets that much smaller.
So, since openSUSE is one of the few that actually supports Old World Macs, shall we drop that as well? Or shall we do what's neccessary to support the hardware we say it will run on? There are a lot of us who use PPC. So, we should just send that to the landfill? Is that what you are saying?
Of course not. But developing to a minority interest tends to get things that overall are more important overlooked. The beauty of OSS is that those who are in that minority interest have the power to do something about it themselves. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Jim Henderson
I know you never suggested support for a 386. I was saying "here's another relatively small market segment; maybe we should satisfy that as well". It's a point of comparison.
And I understand that. I've asked before that if fixing bugs for my Old World Macs was too much trouble that that segment be moved to "unofficial status", and that has not happened.
I've seen P4 systems with CD only as well. I nearly purchased one. But if it were my only computer, I would still be likely to either upgrade the CD drive to a DVD, do a network-based installation (and if I didn't know how, I'd ask someone to help me), or borrow a drive if I was too poor to afford the $20 to buy a new one myself. In fact, years ago I had a 486 with no CD drive in it and I wanted to install UnixWare. I couldn't afford a CD drive at the time (the system was completely SCSI), and I did in fact borrow a SCSI CD-ROM drive from a friend so I could do the installation.
I remember the days of 40+ floppy installs. However, a CD iso images isn't as unreasonable as some are making it out to be. A DVD is only 6 times more than a CD, while a CD is about 400 times more than a floppy. Almost any computer within the last 10 years would have had a CD Drive. A lot have had DVD drives. Fewer have DVD burners.
The number of people who have no friends who could lend them a drive is going to be very small indeed.
Very likely. But it's an extra hassle that could and, IMHO, Should be avoided. The purpose of Linux on the Desktop is to make it as painless as possible for the newcomer. The more complicatiions that crop up, the less likely the newcomer will finish the install and use the system. If we are targeting newcomers, then we should support them. And if a CD based install is supporting them, then that should be an option.
But you'd be OK downloading 5 or 6 ISOs to burn to a CD? I'm not following the logic here. Besides, you'd indicated you were talking about a notebook computer, surely that's portable.
I have a notebook. Others may not. Even the, I still have to take it somewhere and HOPE I can tranfer the file over the network. I get tired of trying to copy a file with samba to a windows computer because it craps out too much. And a lot of people don't trust that live cd no matter how much you tell them it won't hurt their system. Maybe I'm trying to be the Devil's advocate too much here, but I have encountered these same arguements before when I speak to people about Linux.
People who are just used to Windows aren't going to take the time to download an ISO first at all - since Winblows came with the computer, they'll just use that.
And that's actually the segment that Linux IS attracting. The more people complain about Vista(which IS very annoying), the more that will be interested in an alternative. The $$ savings alone have swayed a couple of people and the lack of bad things is another.
Of course not. But developing to a minority interest tends to get things that overall are more important overlooked. The beauty of OSS is that those who are in that minority interest have the power to do something about it themselves.
Than that's a decision that the devs need to make, not us. I don't know WHY the change was made. Perhaps Andreas could chime in and actually explain it so all of us can understand better? Andreas? I'd appriciate a comment or a link to some info on this. Thanx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (2)
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Jim Henderson
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Larry Stotler