Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 01:26:22PM -0400, Ralph De Witt wrote:

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Hi all: Found a link to create a boot cd but I could not get mkbootcd to work. Does anyone have a link for the opensuse 11.0 x86-64 kde boot iso? thanks for your help.

It will be available on Thursday, as all ISOs.

Marcus, will there be a "full" set of CDs like we had for 10.3 as well? 'Need for a few clients with no DVD drives. Thanks! Fred -- Linux is an old Latin word meaning, "I don't have to support your Windows anymore." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 14:01 -0400, Fred A. Miller wrote:

Marcus Meissner wrote:

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On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 01:26:22PM -0400, Ralph De Witt wrote:

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Hi all: Found a link to create a boot cd but I could not get mkbootcd to work. Does anyone have a link for the opensuse 11.0 x86-64 kde boot iso? thanks for your help.

It will be available on Thursday, as all ISOs.

Marcus, will there be a "full" set of CDs like we had for 10.3 as well? 'Need for a few clients with no DVD drives.

Like the old 5 CD sets? I don't think so. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy Public Mail Yo.media: 225-590-5961 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Stotler" To: "Kevin Dupuy" Cc: ; "opensuse" Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [opensuse] Opensuse 11.0 Boot iso

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

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Marcus, will there be a "full" set of CDs like we had for 10.3 as well? 'Need for a few clients with no DVD drives.

Like the old 5 CD sets? I don't think so.

Why not? Fred makes a valid point. There are still, even in this day, a lot of machines that do not have DVD drives. This smells a lot like the Windows strategy of obseleting older hardware. That's not the Linux way, and it really should not be the openSUSE way. Some of us are still using 10 year old hardware that at least runs a modern system because of Linux. But we are forced to do things the hard way due to a lack of a usable installation medium. How hard is it to make the CDs? And, it's not that much extra to host. At least allow someone else to host them if the openSUSE guys don't have the space for them.

So do a net install. Better yet, stick a copy of the dvd on a linux box somewhere and loop mount it in htdocs and do a net install via http from your own local host. Could be your local laptop or a pc at home on a cable modem etc... Even a 10/100 nic is probably faster than the cd drive anyways. If your laptop runs windows you could still do it with an unpacked copy of the dvd and apache or iis. Yet another possible way, I bet you could stick a copy of the iso, perhaps unpacked, on a usb drive and boot from the mini iso and install from the usb drive too with install=device::/dev/sda1 or flip to another vc and manually mount the usb drive and use the mounted local fs path. I bet a usb dvd drive works fine too but I'm being practical and assuming it's more common to already have, or have access to, a usb hd than a usb dvd instead of suggesting you *gasp* buy something. I'm impressed they put together and still maintain a ppc distribution at all since apple went intel. Thats the amazing part. How it's packaged and delivered is comparatively inconsequential and complaining about one arguably obsolete install option going away on the very latest version of the OS is just being a baby as long as there is still some other way. If a machine is old enough to not have a dvd drive, it probably already runs 10.3 or some older evrsion and should probably just stay running that version. Smart people don't upgrade production machines for no reason. If a machine has no dvd for some other reason like it's part of a large group of headless boxes or ibm blades that rarely need any kind of removeable media, then the admin for them should have no problem doing net installs and should probably already be doing that anyways. The remaining 12 machines on the planet that are new but with busted dvd drives or were intentionally installed without dvd for some reason and the local admin can't figure out a net install and it's impractical for some reason to just install a $25usd dvd drive (yes, just 25 these days) or use a usb drive, and that are being used for actual production that anyone cares about instead of some dude playing with old hardware for his own amusement, are hardly something suse should waste time on. Yes, I have an ancient blue&white G3 that runs linux too and I'd do a net install on that even though I replaced it's cd with a $35 dvd-rom ages ago. I also don't actually do anything useful or important with such an old and non-standard box. Here's a question, Does Apple supply the latest OSX on cd for those old boxes? ... web site says it requires a g4 (well I'm out already on g3) and a dvd drive. -- Brian K. White brian@aljex.com http://www.myspace.com/KEYofR +++++[>+++[>+++++>+++++++<<-]<-]>>+.>.+++++.+++++++.-.[>+<---]>++. filePro BBx Linux SCO FreeBSD #callahans Satriani Filk! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Brian K. White wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Stotler" To: "Kevin Dupuy" Cc: ; "opensuse" Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [opensuse] Opensuse 11.0 Boot iso

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On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

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Marcus, will there be a "full" set of CDs like we had for 10.3 as well? 'Need for a few clients with no DVD drives.

Like the old 5 CD sets? I don't think so.

Why not? Fred makes a valid point. There are still, even in this day, a lot of machines that do not have DVD drives. This smells a lot like the Windows strategy of obseleting older hardware. That's not the Linux way, and it really should not be the openSUSE way. Some of us are still using 10 year old hardware that at least runs a modern system because of Linux. But we are forced to do things the hard way due to a lack of a usable installation medium. How hard is it to make the CDs? And, it's not that much extra to host. At least allow someone else to host them if the openSUSE guys don't have the space for them.

So do a net install. Better yet, stick a copy of the dvd on a linux box somewhere and loop mount it in htdocs and do a net install via http from your own local host. Could be your local laptop or a pc at home on a cable modem etc... Even a 10/100 nic is probably faster than the cd drive anyways. If your laptop runs windows you could still do it with an unpacked copy of the dvd and apache or iis.

Yet another possible way, I bet you could stick a copy of the iso, perhaps unpacked, on a usb drive and boot from the mini iso and install from the usb drive too with install=device::/dev/sda1 or flip to another vc and manually mount the usb drive and use the mounted local fs path. I bet a usb dvd drive works fine too but I'm being practical and assuming it's more common to already have, or have access to, a usb hd than a usb dvd instead of suggesting you *gasp* buy something.

I'm impressed they put together and still maintain a ppc distribution at all since apple went intel. Thats the amazing part. How it's packaged and delivered is comparatively inconsequential and complaining about one arguably obsolete install option going away on the very latest version of the OS is just being a baby as long as there is still some other way.

If a machine is old enough to not have a dvd drive, it probably already runs 10.3 or some older evrsion and should probably just stay running that version. Smart people don't upgrade production machines for no reason. If a machine has no dvd for some other reason like it's part of a large group of headless boxes or ibm blades that rarely need any kind of removeable media, then the admin for them should have no problem doing net installs and should probably already be doing that anyways. The remaining 12 machines on the planet that are new but with busted dvd drives or were intentionally installed without dvd for some reason and the local admin can't figure out a net install and it's impractical for some reason to just install a $25usd dvd drive (yes, just 25 these days) or use a usb drive, and that are being used for actual production that anyone cares about instead of some dude playing with old hardware for his own amusement, are hardly something suse should waste time on.

Yes, I have an ancient blue&white G3 that runs linux too and I'd do a net install on that even though I replaced it's cd with a $35 dvd-rom ages ago. I also don't actually do anything useful or important with such an old and non-standard box.

Here's a question, Does Apple supply the latest OSX on cd for those old boxes? ... web site says it requires a g4 (well I'm out already on g3) and a dvd drive.

For all of that, it would be simpler to just temporarily install a US-$30 DVD drive. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jpff writes:

What is the expected way to install 11.0 without Gnome of KDE on a machine without DVD? I do not want the wasted overhead of a "desktop" system on my older (nd nonDVD) machines.

In that case you could use the Net (boot iso) and have the DVD remote - or use directly the ftp repository, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-06-17 at 20:59 -0400, Matt Archer wrote:

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system because of Linux. But we are forced to do things the hard way due to a lack of a usable installation medium. How hard is it to make the CDs? And, it's not that much extra to host. At least allow someone else to host them if the openSUSE guys don't have the space for them.

They have the space.

It's not only their space, but the space on many mirrors, that would automatically replicate the tree. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIWGBYtTMYHG2NR9URAsA8AJ9K17mkUY7s51qIbqbuCEpB4AXJVwCbBfxV W6JFAjUv+sxzzbgLWx7PFs0= =q3nG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-06-17 at 21:42 -0400, Matt Archer wrote:

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They have the space.

It's not only their space, but the space on many mirrors, that would automatically replicate the tree.

Not all of them replicate anything. That's why some mirrors are listed as partial.

But really, where is the crisis of disk space shortage among the hosts the mirror the Suse images?

Ask the respective mirror owners. I remember one of them objecting here to all those suse isos, he wanted less. It is not only disk space, is ram dedicated to cache. The more "huge" files they serve, the smaller the hit ratio, and thus smaller overall performance to all clients or the server. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIWNyntTMYHG2NR9URAg5eAJ9bq0VE3mAlC4e42PKOmQgZePW7rQCfZFc0 h5kCQumO6UBYPd+cdyXx19Y= =U707 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2008-06-18 at 06:11 -0400, Matt Archer wrote:

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Ask the respective mirror owners. I remember one of them objecting here to all those suse isos, he wanted less.

It is not only disk space, is ram dedicated to cache. The more "huge" files they serve, the smaller the hit ratio, and thus smaller overall performance to all clients or the server.

Ethernet is pitifully slow compared to the disk I/O of any modern computer.

This is why, despite the claims of Dell and others, file-servers can EASILY be bottom-of-the-barrel machines, and buying a top-end motherboard and CPU for that purpose is just plain wasteful and stupid.

As I say, don't ask me, ask them. They have figures of their machines perfomance, and why they do not want that many isos. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIWORAtTMYHG2NR9URAvP8AJ4u0zq/iyV/jATOcaW2EfjU3+n3gACeJQdI dHOIogFn25uQwgXFL0La6n0= =KNVS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Matt Archer wrote:

Ethernet is pitifully slow compared to the disk I/O of any modern computer.

This is why, despite the claims of Dell and others, file-servers can EASILY be bottom-of-the-barrel machines, and buying a top-end motherboard and CPU for that purpose is just plain wasteful and stupid.

Eh? Gigabit Ethernet is the modern standard, and I don't find it slow at all. Nor is it expensive. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Brian K. White wrote:

A 1x cdrom is only 150K !! A 12x is only about 14Mbit You have a machine old enough to have only a cd and yet it's somehow a new 52x? Ok, a 52x cd is still only about 62Mbit

And USB v1.x is 12Mbit.

What's next? You somehow have a blazing fast cd drive but only a 10mbit nic? Further, thousands of others have the same inexplicably retarded config such that suse or anyone else should care about spending effort to support it?

Thanx for crapping on my Machines. Some of us actually do use older machines are are very productive on them for what we do. What happened to the: You don't need a superfast computer for Linux? Now we expect everyone to be a Vista capable machine and use Linux? Well, at that point, they'll just use Vista. Some of us are having a hard time money wise. The economy isn't great in a lot of places. If its food for my kids vs upgrades, I wonder which is more important. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

And some people don't even have a computer. So? So you have a computer that no longer meets the requirements of current OS's big whup. So install 10.3 You are avoiding upgrading your hardware, so what's so unreasonable about expecting you to avoid upgrading your software?

That's not the point. It's a matter of return on investment to upgrade. So I should replace my Thinkpad with the P3/500? It runs openSUSE just fine. So my son's Powerbook runs it slowly, but it runs it.

Complaining you can't run FF3 on opensuse 8.1 is just inventing problems to complain about. (I don't think that was you but it was raised in this thread and servs as an example)

Someone else pointed out that you could install on older version, and I pointed out that I tried to install FF2(not 3) on v8.1, and it wouldn't work. So, it's not useful to use an older copy of the distro versus the current.

It's not just old machines. I recently paid almost $3k for a great little sub-note, the very latest of everything (Vaio TZ series), that couldn't install the very latest freebsd, or any freebsd, using the stock hardware (which includes a cd/dvd-dl+-rw).

And BSD generally doesn't offer the same level of hardware support that Linux does. Only CRUX Linux, openSUSE, and NetBSD "Officially" support Old World Macs.

There are no cd's for 11.0 get over it. Install 10.3 or put out the teeny amount of effort to use some other way.

The question was WHY they weren't available. So we just abandon users who aren't as knowledgable as you when they can't figure out the offered work arounds?

A few have been suggested that would work even without any usb ports. Some aren't even more work.

Again, these are solutions for experienced people. I am trying to argue for those with less experience. While I find them useful, I don't neccessarily need them. There are other who may need them.

I have machines that can't install opensuse 11.0 either. I don't consider it suse's fault or even a problem in the first place.

I never said it couldn't install. I said that I have to jump through hoops to install because of the lack of support for CD medium. As I also pointed out, just having a DVD drive doesn't mean you can even burn the DVD Isos. I'm looking at 4 computers and only 1 has a DVDRW drive. 2 have DVD-CDRWs and the other has only a CD drive. If I didn't have the DVDRW here, I'd be unable to burn the medium to begin with. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 18 June 08, Brian K. White wrote:

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As I also pointed out, just having a DVD drive doesn't mean you can even burn the DVD Isos. I'm looking at 4 computers and only 1 has a DVDRW drive. 2 have DVD-CDRWs and the other has only a CD drive. If I didn't have the DVDRW here, I'd be unable to burn the medium to begin with.

You don't ned a dvd burner to install from the dvd image. You can download it and loopback mount it and either rsync the contents to a usb drive or access the mount point via http/ftp/nfs http is the simplest to set up and use both on the server and client side imo.

And of course, you twit, every newbie to linux will know *instantly* what all that gobbledygook means. You should see a vet for that foot-in-mouth disease you've got. -- As the Founding Fathers knew well, a government that does not trust its honest, law-abiding, taxpaying citizens with the means of self-defense is not itself worthy of trust. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

You also conveniently fail to recognize that these are install disks, implying new installations, implying new hardware in most cases. Old machines are largely already running something, and for re-installs, should probably best just re-install the same thing. The remaining tiny fraction of people wanting to do something frankly silly should not consume suse's resources. If you can't upgrade the hardware, then what's so horribly unfair about not upgrading the software?

One of the advantages of Linux is being able to make use of older hardware that other systems have obseleted. If we went by your view, the kernel devs should strip out all support for anything less than a Core2 or an Athlon64. Just obselete all 32bit hardware. Why run it on PPC? Why run it on SPARC? It's pointless to support older hardware. No one can actually use the current Linux on a system that's more than 2 years old. Fortunately for a lot of us, that is not the case. openSUSE supports the PPC from the 601 to the G5. It supports from the Pentium to the Core2. It supports a huge amount of legacy hardware because the drivers have already been perfected. It allows many of use to continue to use 8-10 year old computers that otherwise would be restricted to using out dated and insecure OSs. There's been a discussion at the lowendmac.com site I do a little writing for about the posibility of using Linux as an alternative for MacOS since Leopard dropped support for machines slower than 867Mhz G4's and the next version will probably drop PPC support entirely. So, Apple is dropping support for computers that are barely 3 years old. So, because we have older computers, we should just not use them? My powerbook Wallstreet, once I finally track down a G4/500 upgrade will play XviD encoded movies, and browse the web just fine, not to mention be a very usable machine for word processing. Sure, it's not a speed demon, but the 4 hour battery life makes it worth another $50 investment. And it will be as about as responive as an Asus EEEpc.

No one is forcing you (figurative) to get 11.0 just because it came out. It doesn't magically break your existing install.

Sure, I won't install v11.0 on a Pentium with 48MB RAM. That's what DamnSmallLinux is for. But if openSUSE says that you can run it on a P-III/500, then that is what THEY are supporting. Not what you seem to feel is the appropriate system for their latest release. I've never seen anything saying that if you have a computer less than 2 years old with less than 2GB of RAM to try somewhere else.

I'm sorry you don't like what I have to say on this topic. You are free to have any kind of opinion. But if you want to argue it, you need to come up with a better counter argument than calling your debate opponent a twit.

There's been a lot of useless name calling. It's one thing to get a little animated and come across a little strong. The advantage of Linux is that we are a community of different people with different needs. That's what makes it so much better in so many ways than WinDoZe. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Is there nothing wrong with this picture? The current situation in essence says the following:

Amen Felix. I regularly run openSUSE on 10 year old computers. See no reason to upgrade. I'd hate for that to become the guiding philosophy here. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:58:09 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Wednesday 2008-06-18 at 12:58 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:

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On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

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Is there nothing wrong with this picture? The current situation in essence says the following:

Amen Felix. I regularly run openSUSE on 10 year old computers. See no reason to upgrade. I'd hate for that to become the guiding philosophy here.

Amen here, too.

Yep, I would concur as well. It's one thing to say "that's the way it is and if you don't like it, tough", and another to say "if you think it's important, then maybe you could lead the charge to make it happen". The latter is much more in the spirit of OSS. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Wed, 2008-06-18 at 06:11 -0400, Matt Archer wrote:

...

Ethernet is pitifully slow compared to the disk I/O of any modern computer.

This is why, despite the claims of Dell and others, file-servers can EASILY be bottom-of-the-barrel machines, and buying a top-end motherboard and CPU for that purpose is just plain wasteful and stupid.

Most sata's i come across are 60MB/s some 80MB/s, With raid-5 i've seen 100MB/s Still not enough to saturate a single GB eth-channel, let alone a number of bonded interface. Real fast scsi-drives are just some gigs..

(Or do you still use thinwire, 10B2, without proper line-terminators ;-)

I know a bit about this. For small files (1 MB or less) and a heavy i/o load your limiting factor is the drives and their slow seek times. (i.e. not the CPU, nor PCI-bus, nor Ethernet,) So spend your money on Raid setups and more drives if you want to run faster. ie. basically the more spindles you have, the more i/o you can do. If you have bigger files (1GB +) that you are working with, then 3 or 4 drives in a raid array may saturate what the MB / ethernet can handle. With older machines the PCI bus becomes the throttle. Just too slow. I have not tested with modern machines and all the i/o running on PCIexpress cards. I'm not sure where the bottleneck is there for a fileserver serving large files Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Matt Archer [06-17-08 21:02]:

They have the space.

It's a decision to simply not (using whatever software they have for generating these things) to create the CD ISO images like in the past.

I smell the stench of more counter-productive decisions at Novell.

Don't know what you are smoking but it's comming out fud! You need to roll-yur-own and stay away from the keyboard. You know not what it spells. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Matt Archer [06-17-08 22:46]:

That's what I pay SUSE to do.

A dubious statement completely lacking is substance! You really need to move away from the keyboard. It isn't providing you with the proper words to express yourself and apparently there is no other means at your disposal. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 20:59 -0400, Matt Archer wrote:

I smell the stench of more counter-productive decisions at Novell.

And, what would that be? It takes less time and work to not make the 5 CDs, and why, by the way, would you need them anyway? Just use the normal CDs and install any apps you need after the install. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy Public Mail Yo.media: 225-590-5961 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

It's not like DVD-ROM drives are hard to find cheap.

Sure, unless you need a specific model, like for my Powerbook. You can find them on eBay for about $590 shipped. I personally don't have that extra at the moment.

Or there's always the option of a network install.

Again, how about newbies? They are not going to want to mess with that. For someone with an older machine that just wants to install it to check it out and doesn't have a DVD drive or a super fast connection, then the CD install disks are what they need. None of my Macs have DVD drives in them. And since I have several that are SCSI only, and there are really no SCSI DVD drives to be found anymore, I have to go to the added expense of a PCI card as well. If I have to balance a RAM purchase over a DVD purchase, I'd rather do the RAM purchase. Sorry if I;m just asking too much. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:46 PM, Matt Archer wrote:

Installing to a notebook has NEVER been recommended for newbies.

WHAT? So now we are elitist? Sorry, don't try this on your notebook because you don't know what you are doing? Where did that attitude come from? Amazing how you ask for something as simple as needing CD based installation medium and everyone wants to fight with you about how you don't need it. Point is, I DO NEED IT. And there are others who do as well. You used to be able to just download the first 3 cds and that was all you needed. That saves time. Now, you HAVE to download a full DVD. Even Fedora 9 has install CDs available: http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:08 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:

Then install from the live CD.

Sure. Tried that. And when I tried to get rid of KDE4 and install KDE3, It showed a million dependencies. No thanx. If they had a KDE3 liveCD, then maybe. But not at this point. Also, you can't boot the Live CD on an old world Mac. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

Well, then, I guess you're stuffed unless the community's willing to put some discs together.

I'm not. Others are. That's we asked for the CDs. I can install via NFS and do. It's for new users that I think this is a need.

Instead of looking for *problems*, why not look for *solutions*?

Sorry, I thought that part of our goal was to help find problems with the distro. If the lack of a CD install medium is considered a problem by some, then that is a problem. If I know HOW to build the CDs, I would. I don't. That's why we are asking the community WHY they aren't offered, and are asking them to make them available. Personally, I would like to see a 1CD install without openoffice, without Beagle, without compiz, etc. If I know how to build it and make it available I would. I've looked into it, but never managed to firgure it out. How about a link to a site on how to build custom cds? That would help me find a solution. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

I'd say part of the goal is to not just find *problems*, but to propose *solutions*. And not "gimme a CD-based distro", but to *really* make an effort to solve the problem. If you have some skills (and you seem to, since you do your installs via NFS - presumably you set up the NFS server for this purpose, so you must know *something*), instead of asking "why don't YOU do this?" ask "How can I help make this happen?".

I will agree with that. However, this thread deteriorated really fast because instead of asking that question, everyone wanted to offer a solution that isn't what was requested. CD based installation media. The purpose is to offer that for those who need it, not offer work arounds for experienced users.

So rather than asking "can you make them available?" ask "how can we - as a community - make them available?". That's a more constructive way and you can get like-minded people to start a conversation rather than just jump on the MeToo wagon.

Again, I grant that. However, we did ask that in the beginning. Maybe not in that way, but it was requested, not demanded. I added in my support for the need for CD based media.

I haven't had a need for a long time. Maybe someone else knows and can provide some info. There may be something on the openSUSE wiki about how the DVDs are built. That might be a place to start - by asking about how the DVD boot process works for the installer, how it determines it has the right media in the drive, and so on.

Then I'll start a new thread asking that. Thanx for a useful suggestion. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2008-06-18 at 12:11 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote: ...

If I know HOW to build the CDs, I would. I don't. That's why we are asking the community WHY they aren't offered, and are asking them to make them available. Personally, I would like to see a 1CD install without openoffice, without Beagle, without compiz, etc. If I know how to build it and make it available I would. I've looked into it, but never managed to firgure it out.

A 1CD install is way more reasonable than a 5 CD install. You could perhaps make do with the gnome 1 disk instead of the kde 1 disk, if you don't like kde4; then adding kde3,, which can coexist happily with gnome. It's an easier road than uninstalling kde4, I think (even for those that say "I hate gnome!" :-p )

How about a link to a site on how to build custom cds? That would help me find a solution.

There is such a thing, even yast has a module for that - or is it for creating custom lives? I've never tried, now what's the name... ? [...] Ah, the yast module in 10.3 is "product creator" or "image creator", perhaps the second one (I've never tried). The app behind is... ah, "kiwi". Search this in the wiki, there is some info. It is not trivial, though. Maybe you can find notes somewhere about how the 1 CD lives are created :-? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIWV/otTMYHG2NR9URAuA/AJ9gm23D+O+0f85+c9aHoT3nBDlC8ACfTsvR 0o12nfigwNKsUIw3emPAP0E= =BaWD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I've seen lots of discussion of old machines that only have a CD, but none about isolated systems that neither have a DVD, nor an Internet connection. I guess I'm spoiled because everywhere I support they have Internet. Thus, I've installed the KDE single CD several times at different locations. I assume it brought down some of the packages via my Internet connection, but it was transparent to me. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 9:49 PM, JB2 wrote:

When a 'problem' is found, should a newbie just consider what you just said and screw his newly-tried linux system up trying to fix it when he can barely understand what app does what yet? I think that little hard-on you have for Aaron is messing with your thought processes.

You go from this about Jim Henderson, to this about me:

Notice the other elitists of the list don't tell Brian to shut-up? Or how no one else steps in and agrees that it *IS* the same mentality as M$ users have and abuse?

Not sure what point you are trying to make. I have not, nor anyone else, has told anyone to shut up. I was pointing about a mentality that I disagree with that smells of M$.

This list has gone to hell in a handbasket and it's actually quite amusing to watch them keep strangling themselves and fuming at those of us who point our the truth to them.

Speaking of going bad, your comments were probably the most inappropriate, IMHO. There's a difference between being adamant about something and using comments like the one to Jim about Aaron.

By the way, you should take a look at Yoper if you're interested in trying another distro.

I've tried it. However, I must admit that I am spoiled by YaST. And I have supported SuSE since 1999. It's always had the best balance in my opinion. That's why I am a part of the community now. I actually have a voice and can suggest ways to improve the distro. Some of my suggestions won't engender agreement from the majority, but they are my suggestions never the less. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller wrote:

You're not. ;) I have clients who have older equipment and it all works fine. UNfortunately, they live where there isn't any broad band service, unless they get 2-way satellite. Well, not everyone can afford that in their budget. Installing from a CD simply means it takes me a LOT longer to get the job done. 'Sure hope the CD "options" include an image with KDE 3.5* as I'm not installing 4.0 yet.....NOT mature enough.

Fred

Simply split the dvd over several cd's and then copy them to a partition on the target machine, boot from the mini boot cd and select the hard drive partition as the installation medium. Its the fastest way to install. Regards Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Fred Miller [06-18-08 00:04]:

You're not. ;) I have clients who have older equipment and it all works fine. UNfortunately, they live where there isn't any broad band service, unless they get 2-way satellite. Well, not everyone can afford that in their budget. Installing from a CD simply means it takes me a LOT longer to get the job done. 'Sure hope the CD "options" include an image with KDE 3.5* as I'm not installing 4.0 yet.....NOT mature enough.

They surely have a usb port. Purchase a usb dvd drive and carry it with you. And/or a parallel->usb cable for those "older" machines. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:41:40 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:

Sure, unless you need a specific model, like for my Powerbook. You can find them on eBay for about $590 shipped. I personally don't have that extra at the moment.

Got a USB or Firewire port? An external enclosure runs about 10 bucks. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

Got a USB or Firewire port? An external enclosure runs about 10 bucks.

Not on my Powerbook. It didn't come with either. And it's the same problem:

WHY can't I use the existing drive to do the install. Why is it neccessary to do a Work around??

seems like you are only triyng to feed a troll... why did you buy a so closed machine at first? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Stotler" To: "opensuse" Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [opensuse] Re: Opensuse 11.0 Boot iso

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:28 AM, jdd wrote:

...

seems like you are only triyng to feed a troll...

Nice attitude.

...

why did you buy a so closed machine at first?

Because I've had it for a few years(and it's my son's). I remember Beta Testing openSUSE v10.0 on my old Macs. No DVD drive in any of them. Even now. It's amazing how upgradable older Macs are. I have a G4/700 in a machine that came with a 601/100. Try that with a Pentium. Not gonna happen.

The point is that there are people who do only have a CD drive in there machine. When they see they can't do a full install without jumping through hoops, they will go elsewhere. What happened to trying to get people to use Linux on the desktop? Those older machines that have been replaced because WinDoZe bogged it down are the perfect candidate for Linux, and a lot of them don't have a DVD drive.

I'm really amazed that there is so much resistance to having a CD based install. And so many suggestions that are geared toward people who have experience and none that consider the newbies that we are supposed to be going after.

The resistance has to do with valuing the very efficiency you value. If suse decided to stop producing cd's it's because there was some incentive to do so, ie: it was sapping resources for not enough gain to be worth it. I resist anything that wastes their resources away from making further progress on the product. Maybe it's not that producing cd's is SO horrible, but that it's simply unnecessary fat and overhead. It may be just one of 50 things that, if trimmed, results in a significantly more eficient organization. I say trim all 50and don't get sucked into making "exceptions" for half of them. Things go obsolete and are no longer supported all the time. Yes it's still possible for suse to produce cd's for another version or even another several, but you do have to draw a line somewhere and say this is stupid, like the floppy example. Now is a perfectly reasonable time to switch to assuming most new installs will have a dvd so I say they are entirely practical. Hows this for a nice attitude? If you want to use ancient hardware, then use ancient software instead of expecting everyone else to go out of their way to make it effortless for you to do something unnecessarily odd and satisfy your unnecessarily picky wishes. If the need was so common, then they would still produce cd's. Apparently the need is uncommon. When I want to do something uncommon, I know who's responsibility it is to figure things out, mine. I may seek help and ideas from others, and collaborate with them to produce now-how and some sort of shortest possible recipe, but I don't consider it a tragic injustice if I don't get vendor support for free. It's really quite a simple concept. And you don't have to use software that's nearly as ancient as the hardware anyways. * you can use 10.3 which is totally current * you can use 11.0 if you would stop whining and ** install via net ** install via usb ** make your own simple split file cd's of the dvd and manually create a filesystem on the hd with the mini iso or a live cd and unpack the cd's onto it and install from that. ** install the livecd and use kde4 (what? you want the latest version of the OS on the ancient hardware, but not the latest kde which is part of that OS? And you can't figure out how to resolve the dependancies required to remove and reinstall kde after install? (it's completely easy to deinstall all of kde in one shot) and you want suse to make all that effortless for you? good grief talk about attitude...) That's 6 perfectly doable options right off the top of my head. Your complaint lacks substance to engender sympathy. What's next? 11.0 requires too much ram for your 64M laptop? -- Brian K. White brian@aljex.com http://www.myspace.com/KEYofR +++++[>+++[>+++++>+++++++<<-]<-]>>+.>.+++++.+++++++.-.[>+<---]>++. filePro BBx Linux SCO FreeBSD #callahans Satriani Filk! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 18 June 08, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

<snip>

...

Hows this for a nice attitude? If you want to use ancient hardware, then use ancient software instead of expecting everyone else to go out of their way to make it effortless for you to do something unnecessarily odd and satisfy your >unnecessarily picky wishes.

I'm not in a 1 person minority here. Several have already expressed the need for CDs and several have also agreed that they wish for openSUSE to continue to support their older hardware. If openSUSE is going to list it's requirements as a P-II based system, then that system will likely not have a DVD drive.

<snip>

...

That's 6 perfectly doable options right off the top of my head. Your complaint lacks substance to engender sympathy.

And that's the same elitest mentality that MS has. Let's FORCE users to upgrade to make use of anything. Why should a program require XP SP2 when 2000 SP4 will run it just fine? It's called forcing out older hardware. If that's openSUSE's new official position, then I will look to support another distro.

Notice the other elitists of the list don't tell Brian to shut-up? Or how no one else steps in and agrees that it *IS* the same mentality as M$ users have and abuse? This list has gone to hell in a handbasket and it's actually quite amusing to watch them keep strangling themselves and fuming at those of us who point our the truth to them. By the way, you should take a look at Yoper if you're interested in trying another distro. -- "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:

Because relative to the number of users, your situation represents a fraction (or is perceived to) of the people who have that issue.

How do we determine that number? Does anyone really know? Would a 5% increase in users be worthwhile under that standard?

Sure, anyone here could come up with some odd/old hardware combination where the current options can't work for installation.

Which is much more common than people realize. I work with a computer company that sees a lot of this on daily basis.gbv

openSUSE is a *community* effort, not a corporate effort. So rather than "blame" Novell for "not providing CDs", why not work with the community to see *how* a CD set could be built as a community contribution to the project?

I never accused anyone of anything. I said that it was a bad mentality to try to encourage people to use Linux vs Vista when the target machines are older anyway. And, I offered to help out in anyway I could. I don't have a mirror site(although that is something I am looking into for the future). So long as we could get 1 site to host it, and have a link to that site, that would satisfy most. And, if that site started getting overwhelmed, then we would know that there was a definate demand. Also keep in mind that a lot of people have DVD/CDRWs(like my thinkpad), so while it can READ a DVD, it can't write one. That becomes a problem as well.

Or why not just use the Live CDs (which CAN be used for install) and then install any missing packages from a local repo? That is a perfectly reasonable compromise. What's more, it ain't rocket science to actually *do* that.

Why do they say that KDE4 is experimental(or whatever) and not offer a KDE3 LiveCD? Also, like I pointed out, you can't remove KDE4 in favor of KDE3 without a hassle. Finally, some machines, like Old World Macs, can't boot LiveCDs. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2008-06-18 at 09:00 +0200, jdd sur free wrote:

there are a lot of ways to install openSUSE. don't you have any usb port? you can stick there any support you want to supplement a cd.

Now that I think, old machines without dvd might not have an usb port. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIWOEttTMYHG2NR9URAiaBAJ9a81Hp/rT6OIP3F56Hzp2haAUO4ACfS/Gd LbtQgPBoVo0C1M16DcsWrQM= =WES8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2008-06-18 at 12:47 +0200, jdd sur free wrote:

...

Now that I think, old machines without dvd might not have an usb port.

I had an old laptop (acer travelmate 12" - P266), with no dvd, neither cd (only pcmcia and not bootable) and it had USB. USB is pretty old, now

and decent (in this respect) computer are everyday sent to trash...

I have an old pentium-1, which the bios and MB says they have usb, linux sees it, but the box doesn't have the socket. At the time there was no use for "such a new useless gadget". It does have two serial ports, parallel port, joystick, etc. And two nics I added. And if i wanted, I could replace the CD writer with a broken dvd writer I have, which reads alright. Or even have both. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIWO0rtTMYHG2NR9URAgdlAJ4q06Djc9U1MDC9Mx0DMnPf4A7R+QCfWpb+ l8e79g45v1XHZF9SRiYxRWI= =fJcu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:00 AM, jdd sur free wrote:

there are a lot of ways to install openSUSE. don't you have any usb port? you can stick there any support you want to supplement a cd.

My Wallstreet Powerbook doesn't. And I haven't had the extra $$ to get a card with it. Nor do I really need USB on that machine to begin with.

I recently installed opensuse on a small computer unable to boot from cd (don't even think of dvd's!). It could only boot floppies. do you want 11 to be available on floppies?

No. Buy 5 CD's vs 2500 floppies is a big difference.

I could install an old suse floppy version, copy the necessary files of the new one and boot from grub this new one. all the rest from usb or cd

I have old versions of SuSE. I need to install the new versions. You can't run Firefox v2.x with SuSE v8.1. I tried. Too many unresolved dependencies.

and newbie dont use such hardware with new distros. ask them to install vista :-)

Here we go again. More condencening against the newbies. That's really going to get them to try something better. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:15:03 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

That's probably the best reason I've seen so far, I mean, for not making them. Although it would benefit some people to have them...

Maybe that's something that the community could produce if there's enough demand - there's no reason the community couldn't do that work if there is perceived to be enough demand. I seem to recall there were even instructions for doing this in some of the older releases, weren't there? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 6:15 PM, Fred A. Miller wrote:

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 14:01 -0400, Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 01:26:22PM -0400, Ralph De Witt wrote:

...

Hi all: Found a link to create a boot cd but I could not get mkbootcd to work. Does anyone have a link for the opensuse 11.0 x86-64 kde boot iso? thanks for your help.

It will be available on Thursday, as all ISOs.

Marcus, will there be a "full" set of CDs like we had for 10.3 as well? 'Need for a few clients with no DVD drives.

Like the old 5 CD sets? I don't think so.

Too bad......SHOULD be.

Fred

For 10.3 Intel they have a single CD that is gnome or KDE specific. You install it and then have enough functionality to pull the rest of the distro from the online sources. That addresses a lot of the machines without a DVD, but yes I think you still have to have a Internet connection. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

"Fred A. Miller" writes:

Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 01:26:22PM -0400, Ralph De Witt wrote:

...

Hi all: Found a link to create a boot cd but I could not get mkbootcd to work. Does anyone have a link for the opensuse 11.0 x86-64 kde boot iso? thanks for your help.

It will be available on Thursday, as all ISOs.

Marcus, will there be a "full" set of CDs like we had for 10.3 as well? 'Need for a few clients with no DVD drives.

We will provide the same medias as with all Betas and RC1 for each architecture: * DVD * Installable LiveCD * Language AddOn * Boot ISO Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

"Fred A. Miller" writes:

...

Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 01:26:22PM -0400, Ralph De Witt wrote:

...

Hi all: Found a link to create a boot cd but I could not get mkbootcd to work. Does anyone have a link for the opensuse 11.0 x86-64 kde boot iso? thanks for your help. It will be available on Thursday, as all ISOs. Marcus, will there be a "full" set of CDs like we had for 10.3 as well? 'Need for a few clients with no DVD drives.

We will provide the same medias as with all Betas and RC1 for each architecture: * DVD * Installable LiveCD * Language AddOn * Boot ISO

LiveCD with KDE 3.5*? Thanks, Fred -- Linux is an old Latin word meaning, "I don't have to support your Windows anymore." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org