What does TOFU mean? Tom On Wed, 2002-06-05 at 10:40, Kevin McLauchlan wrote:

I did a quick Google search, but stopped when I reached:

http://fp.thewafer.f9.co.uk/amusement/tofu/tofu.htm

On Wednesday 05 June 2002 13:32, Purdom, Jesse wrote:

...

What does bean curd have to do with SuSE Linux? :-) Granted, it's not all that tasty, but still....

J

-----Original Message----- From: Togan Muftuoglu [mailto:toganm@dinamizm.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 1:25 PM To: SLE Subject: [SLE] Please stop TOFU

As the subjects says please stop TOFU when you reply emails

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On Wednesday 05 June 2002 14:19, Christopher Mahmood wrote: [...]

I.e., instead of you replying to post of mine by carefully trimming the amount of the text you quote and then add your follow-up below it, you add your answer and then quote my entire email below.

It's amazingly rude and ugly, even worse than Cc'ing a poster when replying to the list.

Hi. I apologize for my recent contribution to the "Fullquote Under" problem. That was just carelessness on my part, and suggests a lack of respect that I didn't intend. Sorry. HOWEVER... regarding the other points: 1) I am in a dozen lists of various kinds, and many people prefer to have reply text *above* the edited, quoted text, so that they can read the answer and not need to scroll down unless they need a reminder about the matter being addressed. 2) Equally, on many lists, many people ask explicitly to be CC:'d because they are on digest, or because their filters automatically file list messages and they want a copy to remain in their inbox until they can notice that someone has responded to them directly (as opposed to generic replies to the list). Some days, I get too busy to keep looking in all my list folders for new posts, but if a copy lands in my inbox, I know that somebody wants my attention, or that I should politely thank somebody who has written me an answer. Again, I agree wholeheartedly with concerns about fulltext quoting, and re-iterate my apology for recent, careless transgressions on my part. The other stuff, however, seems to be more a matter of taste... or of having lived in newsgroups with old newsreaders, before emigrating to mailing lists ("it's better because that's the way we've always done it"). If there are convincing technical reasons for: a) always replying below (edited) quoted text and b) never CC:ing a list-member, then I'm open to be instructed. I hate being the only doofus who doesn't know why/how he's being rude or offensive. "A gentleman never gives offence unintentionally." By the way, in case I haven't made it clear recently, I really appreciate the effort, knowledge and enthusiasm of people who take the time to answer queries on this list, especially those who go a little further and explain *why* something works the way it does (or point to a URL). Regards, /kevin

Kevin McLauchlan wrote:

1) I am in a dozen lists of various kinds, and many people prefer to have reply text *above* the edited, quoted text, so that they can read the answer and not need to scroll down unless they need a reminder about the matter being addressed.

Although in general this may be true (though the attitude towards this may be changing.... it's a matter of etiquette, I believe), my impression is that for a technical list like this one it's better to start with the essential part of the quote, and have your reply follow. It also gives you the opportunity to respond directly to several parts of the quote (two in this message, for example). What I find really amazing, is when someone responds to a thread where everyone has his/her reply at the end, by suddenly putting the reply at the beginning. The thread quickly turns into a big mess this way - how should the next respondant reply?

2) Equally, on many lists, many people ask explicitly to be CC:'d because they are on digest, or because their filters automatically file list messages and they want a copy to remain in their inbox until they can notice that someone has responded to them directly (as opposed to generic replies to the list).

I would think it's more elegant to send them a separate message. SH

* Doug McGarrett [Jun 06. 2002 04:55]:

Test above, full quote below. That's what you have quoted. Well, that's exactly what this is. It's what standard mail programs

Well, you live in the wrong world if that's your definition of 'standard'. -- Mads Martin Jørgensen, http://mmj.dk "Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic and totally illogic, with just a little bit more effort?" -- A. P. J.

At 01:24 06/07/2002 +0200, you wrote:

Doug McGarrett [05 Jun 2002 22:50:41 -0400]:

OK, I removed everything, and you may or may not remember what this was about. If IBM's Lotus Notes--I have no idea at all what MS mail programs do-- and Qualcomm's Eudora--put the reply first, I would expect that everybody would get used to that. If you can't then I guess you'll just have to bitch, because that's the way the Internet is set up. I find that replies without context are mostly useless. Who can remember, out of almost 200 emails a day, what the subject was about. Not me, at any rate. As far as replies both to the list and to the sender, sorry, the list manager has set it up that way; if you just hit reply, you only send to the originator. If you want to send to the list, you have to reply "to all" in ADDITION to the originator. Complain to him. Or maybe it's different now--I see that this is going to the list, and not to you, whoever you are, since I removed everything. --doug

Philipp Thomas schrieb:

There's a german saying for cases like these: People eat garbage, millions of flies can't err.

Never ever heard that "german saying" - and I am half-german, too!

BTW, CC'ing people when replying to the list either shows that your MUA is lacking valuable features or that someone should learn what list replies are.

Philipp No. Entirely NO, dear Philipp! I am on (counted) 18 OTHER mailinglists and this kind of problems concentrates on the mostly german Suse lists.

I read many lists in DIGEST mode, which serves me an overview. And I LOVE to receive an extra CC message if it was personal or alike. This way I can plainly see it. So this has nothing to do with "learning". Please leave out that arrogant tone out of your mails, big instructor. DOT !

If there are convincing technical reasons for... then I'm open to be instructed. Be instructed, Kevin :-)

It has to do with a matter of taste. Some love it (because it's useful to them) and some (most german) do not, because they have "learnt" it so on the old german Usenet parts which were mostly VERY bitchy on rules.

Me neither untill I saw it on the mutt-users list IIRC it was Sven Guckes who came up with it Yes Togan! Quite right. That's why TOFU is NOT English, but a GERMAN invention.

Example: At work, I got a leased PC, which has NT on and all admin rights disabled by default, so I cannot even change that damn Outsuck settings, so why would I be rude? I cannot even change it, nor install a different software. Sometimes, Philipp, I would love to see you looking a bit over the borders of your tables. Keep up that good work but sometimes not this tone nor attitude. Thanks! And, you serve you with German sayings: The tone the Germans quite often use on the Suse lists is a bit like "The world shall be healed from the German kind" (Wilhelm, 1911). Sorry Philipp, that I, in some way, got a little mad at you some time ago. But it was that tone. Please accept my official excuse! The tone makes the musik (again a German saying? hahaa) I fully angree to Sjoerd:

start with the essential part of the quote, and have your reply follow. It also gives you the opportunity to respond directly to several parts of the quote (two in this message, for example). THIS was a useful explanation! Thanks, Sjoerd! ====

And yes: I have fixed that on my private PC. :-) Hey Christopher! Take a break and laugh, do you still remember what you wrote last year? HAHA:

Yes, I was joking b/c some many people seemed terrified of the German Etikette list that I was just having fun with them...imagine the ml-admin wearing jack-boots and carrying a riding crop :) HOIHOHOHOHOHOH

Olli -- *º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨¨*¤ =Oliver@home= *º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨*¤ I http://www.bmw-roadster.de/Friends/Olli/olli.html I I http://www.bmw-roadster.de/Friends/friends.html I I http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VGAP-93 I I http://home.t-online.de/home/spacecraft.portal I

...

...

Telek0ma iBBMS - soon back online +49.4503.TRSi1/TRSi2 <<<

* Tom Nielsen; on 05 Jun, 2002 wrote:

What does TOFU mean?

Like many people do currently when they send a reply to the list it is Text On_top Fullquote Under ( German version is alsa available AFAIK) So please before you hit the reply key or click your mouse read what you are sending does all the quoted text rely necessary. Before Philipp Thomas pionts out check out http://learn.to/edit_messages Your understanding is much appreciated Thanks -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx

* Christopher Mahmood; on 05 Jun, 2002 wrote:

Wow, I never there was an English acronym for it...

Me neither untill I saw it on the mutt-users list IIRC it was Sven Guckes who came up with it Any way hopefully we will have less from now on and I do not have to press Shift-T momentarily :-) -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx