On 2017-07-20 01:40, James wrote:

Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2017-07-20 01:30, James wrote:

...

This is the impression I had of this list:

https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Factory

You need to look at this one instead, for mail list info:

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels#Mailing_lists

opensuse-factory@opensuse.org - This is the list for technical discussions related to the development of the openSUSE Distributions..

It does not limit the mail list to a single distribution ;-)

I see a lot of Leap discussion here, which as I run Tumbleweed, doesnt apply to me. Perhaps I should just look for another medium then.

No, this is the correct mail list for Tumbleweed. There are other avenues, like the forum, but the mail list is where you will find most recent info and access to the developers. The Leap discussions are temporary, because Leap is Beta phase. In about a month they will be silent till next release. However, for questions about user things, you can and should just use the plain opensuse@opensuse.org mail list, but saying that you are using TW. Questions like "I have a problem with LibreOffice". Don't worry if some one appears to growl. We don't bite ;-) Even old timers are growled at sometimes :-p We are from many countries, cultures, different senses of humour, different triggers... Just bear with us for a little while and you'll start to appreciate us ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Carlos E. R.:

On 2017-07-20 01:40, James wrote:

...

Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2017-07-20 01:30, James wrote:

...

This is the impression I had of this list:

https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Factory

You need to look at this one instead, for mail list info:

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels#Mailing_lists

opensuse-factory@opensuse.org - This is the list for technical discussions related to the development of the openSUSE Distributions..

It does not limit the mail list to a single distribution ;-)

I see a lot of Leap discussion here, which as I run Tumbleweed, doesnt apply to me. Perhaps I should just look for another medium then.

No, this is the correct mail list for Tumbleweed. There are other avenues, like the forum, but the mail list is where you will find most recent info and access to the developers.

The Leap discussions are temporary, because Leap is Beta phase. In about a month they will be silent till next release.

However, for questions about user things, you can and should just use the plain opensuse@opensuse.org mail list, but saying that you are using TW. Questions like "I have a problem with LibreOffice".

Don't worry if some one appears to growl. We don't bite ;-) Even old timers are growled at sometimes :-p

We are from many countries, cultures, different senses of humour, different triggers... Just bear with us for a little while and you'll start to appreciate us ;-)

I left opensuse@opensuse.org because of the bickering. I was not getting much out of it. I want to be a member of openSUSE but not at the cost of having to bicker about one thing or another all the time. Or, the way someone words something. I really enjoy this distro. As I've told some folks, I used mac for 7 years before settling on openSUSE. I tried several .deb versions and even devuan. None set my feelings as this one. And I like the rolling releases. It matches Windows, Mac, Gentoo, and a couple others now. I dont care for Leap as that is a maintained periodic release like Fedora. So, the bickering just turns me off. jim. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Simon Lees:

Well stick around, its normally not bad. the community for the most part is really friendly and helpful, if you want other ways to interact with them there is also the forums and #suse on freenode's irc network.

I'll stick around. I'm in the IRC channel too, however that seems pretty off the charts at times too. I asked one simple question in there. The Op asked me if I was 12. It took off from there as I dont put up with that kind noise. I'm too old for that. The guy should not be an op if he is going to treat folks like that. I will not go back to opensuse@opensuse.org as I wasnt getting much from that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-07-20 04:21, James wrote:

Carlos E. R.:

...

However, for questions about user things, you can and should just use the plain opensuse@opensuse.org mail list, but saying that you are using TW. Questions like "I have a problem with LibreOffice".

Don't worry if some one appears to growl. We don't bite ;-) Even old timers are growled at sometimes :-p

We are from many countries, cultures, different senses of humour, different triggers... Just bear with us for a little while and you'll start to appreciate us ;-)

I left opensuse@opensuse.org because of the bickering. I was not getting much out of it. I want to be a member of openSUSE but not at the cost of having to bicker about one thing or another all the time. Or, the way someone words something. I really enjoy this distro. As I've told some folks, I used mac for 7 years before settling on openSUSE. I tried several .deb versions and even devuan. None set my feelings as this one. And I like the rolling releases. It matches Windows, Mac, Gentoo, and a couple others now. I dont care for Leap as that is a maintained periodic release like Fedora. So, the bickering just turns me off.

Believe me, despite some bickering now and then, the people at the opensuse@opensuse.org mail list are really helpful. I have got solved uncountable problems thanks to them. Yes, there is some noise, as it is not moderated. If it were it would be very silent and dull; it would be worse (has happened on other places, they die). If you want a moderated place, then the forums are the thing for you. Either via web, or via nntp. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Brian K. White:

On 7/19/2017 10:21 PM, James wrote:

...

I left opensuse@opensuse.org because of the bickering. I was not getting much out of it. I want to be a member of openSUSE but not at the cost of having to bicker about one thing or another all the time. Or, the way someone words something. I really enjoy this distro. As I've told some folks, I used mac for 7 years before settling on openSUSE. I tried several .deb versions and even devuan. None set my feelings as this one. And I like the rolling releases. It matches Windows, Mac, Gentoo, and a couple others now. I dont care for Leap as that is a maintained periodic release like Fedora. So, the bickering just turns me off.

jim.

You are committing bickering with this very post.

This very post of yours, also includes no interesting on-topic information or question relating to opensuse development.

Now tell us again how terrible such people are who do that.

i can leave this one too if it bothers you that much. :( -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Top posting here too. Stop these personal attacks. Now. If you can't we'd have to find people to moderate these lists before we can propagate usage of the mailing lists as a support platform. All the mailing lists are openSUSE mailing lists. Please keep that in mind and have this kind of nit-picking elsewhere. Op vrijdag 21 juli 2017 00:18:43 CEST schreef Brian K. White:

On 7/19/2017 10:21 PM, James wrote:

...

I left opensuse@opensuse.org because of the bickering. I was not getting much out of it. I want to be a member of openSUSE but not at the cost of having to bicker about one thing or another all the time. Or, the way someone words something. I really enjoy this distro. As I've told some folks, I used mac for 7 years before settling on openSUSE. I tried several .deb versions and even devuan. None set my feelings as this one. And I like the rolling releases. It matches Windows, Mac, Gentoo, and a couple others now. I dont care for Leap as that is a maintained periodic release like Fedora. So, the bickering just turns me off.

jim.

You are committing bickering with this very post.

This very post of yours, also includes no interesting on-topic information or question relating to opensuse development.

Now tell us again how terrible such people are who do that.

-- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/20/2017 03:37 PM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

Top posting here too.

Stop these personal attacks. Now. If you can't we'd have to find people to moderate these lists before we can propagate usage of the mailing lists as a support platform. All the mailing lists are openSUSE mailing lists. Please keep that in mind and have this kind of nit-picking elsewhere.

I only subscribed to and started using the mailing lists within the past few months. What I have seen on them, coming from all sides, is very distressing and I, too, am wondering about the usefullness of the mailing lists. I may drop them because they are too noisy and vitriolic. I am beginning to think that they should be moderated, the same as the forums, as you suggest. In the meantime, might I suggest all openSUSE members, from the top down, once more read through the material posted here?: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles -- -Gerry Makaro aka Fraser_Bell on the forums, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/20/2017 06:08 PM, Fraser_Bell wrote:

I only subscribed to and started using the mailing lists within the past few months. What I have seen on them, coming from all sides, is very distressing and I, too, am wondering about the usefullness of the mailing lists.

I subscribed to "factory" and "opensuse" mailing lists several years ago. However, I chose the subscribe option, to read them at the archive site instead of having them delivered to my mailbox.

I may drop them because they are too noisy and vitriolic.

I avoid the noise, by only selecting to read the ones that interest me. I read the factory list by date. I read the opensuse list by thread. In both case, I look at the end of the list to see new messages (for factory) or new topics (for opensuse reading by thread).

I am beginning to think that they should be moderated, the same as the forums, as you suggest.

You might say that I am moderating what I read, in the way that I select messages to read in my browser. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 7/21/2017 3:34 AM, ianseeks wrote:

On Thursday, 20 July 2017 23:18:43 BST Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 7/19/2017 10:21 PM, James wrote:

...

I left opensuse@opensuse.org because of the bickering. I was not getting much out of it. I want to be a member of openSUSE but not at the cost of having to bicker about one thing or another all the time. Or, the way someone words something. I really enjoy this distro. As I've told some folks, I used mac for 7 years before settling on openSUSE. I tried several .deb versions and even devuan. None set my feelings as this one. And I like the rolling releases. It matches Windows, Mac, Gentoo, and a couple others now. I dont care for Leap as that is a maintained periodic release like Fedora. So, the bickering just turns me off.

jim.

You are committing bickering with this very post.

This very post of yours, also includes no interesting on-topic information or question relating to opensuse development.

Now tell us again how terrible such people are who do that.

Why don't you remind yourself and check out the pointless email you sent to opensuse last tuesday about linus's comment causing a huge pointless thread before you lecture others....

This one's easy. I don't agree it was either pointless or off-topic. As I expressed in that thread, I don't think opensuse should have followed the herd into using systemd. Subsequently, when people said essentially "Well it's done now, get over it." I pointed out what should be stunningly obvious to such smart people. The init system can obviously be changed, since, we just changed it. That inarguably demonstrates that it can change, again. The implication being, to something which does not infect all other apps and services with proprietary special dependencies, and which returns ultimate in-a-pinch control to the owner/operator, without a large complex binary black box binary doing a lot of inscrutable magic while you are trying to operate a system where all the normal magic isn't actually working. You confuse "topic I don't like" with off-topic. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 7/21/2017 12:08 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 21 July 2017 at 17:33, Brian K. White wrote:

...

...

Why don't you remind yourself and check out the pointless email you sent to opensuse last tuesday about linus's comment causing a huge pointless thread before you lecture others....

This one's easy. I don't agree it was either pointless or off-topic.

It doesn't matter if you think it is neither pointless nor off-topic. Communication is measured by it's reception by the audience, not the intent of the speaker.

...

As I expressed in that thread, I don't think opensuse should have followed the herd into using systemd.

And that is both pointless and off-topic.

Pointless - All opinions regarding what is right or wrong is openSUSE are pointless in any openSUSE mailinglist unless they result in contributions that change that which is in openSUSE. The opinion that openSUSE should not have followed 'the herd' is one which has been shared for 6 years. It has not led to any contribution that changed the status of systemd in openSUSE. Therefore it is not only theoretically pointless, but demonstrably so.

Off-topic - All opinions regarding what is technically present in openSUSE are not relevant to the opensuse-factory mailinglist unless there is a) a legitimate technical problem that needs to be addressed and/or b) a proposal on how to fix that problem (ideally with a clear intent from the poster to be part of the solution, or else 'Pointless' might apply). Your opinion that openSUSE should not have followed 'the herd' is not a legitimate technical problem. And you do not seem to have a clear, workable proposal on how to fix that problem. Therefore, it is clearly off-topic on this mailinglist, which exists to discuss the development of openSUSE's distributions.

...

Subsequently, when people said essentially "Well it's done now, get over it." I pointed out what should be stunningly obvious to such smart people. The init system can obviously be changed, since, we just changed it. That inarguably demonstrates that it can change, again.

It can change, if someone changes it. Asking for it to be changed, when some individuals have asked that for 6 years, isn't going to suddenly change the opinions of the developers who have decided they do not want to change it for the last 6 years. It is the very definition of the idiom "flogging a dead horse". Cease doing so.

...

The implication being, to something which does not infect all other apps and services with proprietary special dependencies, and which returns ultimate in-a-pinch control to the owner/operator, without a large complex binary black box binary doing a lot of inscrutable magic while you are trying to operate a system where all the normal magic isn't actually working.

You confuse "topic I don't like" with off-topic.

You confuse this mailinglist with somewhere which is receptive to hearing your opinion on a topic which has been discussed at length, for years. An opinion which you, yourself, do not seem to be willing to implement yourself, but expect others to do so, the very same who have listened to the arguments discussed, for years, and have not been swayed by them. There comes a time when people must accept that a topic has ended it's life as a topic of debatable opinion and must transition to one based on actual hard realities and contributions. systemD is the default in openSUSE. the openSUSE Project has spoken, through its contributions for years, that it currently intends to support only systemd as it's init system. Asking to change that has not swayed that collective opinion for years. Continuing to ask to change that, is unlikely to sway that collective opinion. On behalf of the whole project, I therefore suggest that it only sensible to cease discussing that topic; The only caveat to that request is, of course, in the face of actual contributions that might open the door to an alternative within the openSUSE project.

If you disagree with the above request, please keep in mind you have chosen to approach this topic in a highly emotive, opinion-driven manner. This mailinglist is not your personal soap box, and on behalf of the Board I regret to inform you that the Project will have to consider active moderation of your posts if you continue to use it in this way.

Regards,

Richard Brown openSUSE Chairman

My that sounds so important and decisive and leaderly. Shall I pull in the quotes from that other list where other people expressed that your own attempt to shut down the conversation was worse than the conversation itself? Donating time and effort is no service and no virtue unless it's actually a good thing. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Freitag, 21. Juli 2017 19:26:02 CEST Brian K. White wrote:

On 7/21/2017 12:08 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

[...]

Donating time and effort is no service and no virtue unless it's actually a good thing.

That's true, but for any sane person with a little bit of comprehension, Richards post actually is "a good thing". On the other hand, mindlessly trolling and ignoring technical reasoning never is - that's your contribution so far. Thanks for wasting everyones time, Stefan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Brian, On Fri, 2017-07-21 at 17:07 -0400, Brian K. White wrote:

How does one modify the behavior of a unit file at emergency-console time? I don't mean merely edit the unit file, I mean make it do something that systemd doesn't allow for. I can do that with an init script, because the init binary itself, which I can't see into or modify at run-time, does very little, exactly for that reason.

I'm eagerly awaiting your submissions of a different init system (can be sysV if you like) incl. *full* integration into the system, as a replacement for systemd. Maybe you wish to switch to BSD? I hear they did not switch to systemd and keep on implementing shims, so they don't have to perform the move. Until that day, PLEASE PLEASE: stop this thread and let everybody get on with their lifes. Everybody can wish for technical changes, but somebody has to do them. Apparenlty the people currently developing the distro do not have the issues you face with systemd - which does not mean your issues are not real, but nevertheless, unless you step up and get the work done (by yourself or by motivating somebody to do it, but this please OFF THIS LIST!), will not change the situation

How does one read the binary dadabase journal with only sh to work with? I can do that with the text syslog.

One doesn't - unless one configures it to forward to syslog-ng and/or over a network. Otherwise one uses journalctl to inspec the log files (with the various filter modifiers, but you know that)

It's simply a lie to say I don't have a valid argument based of technical grounds. Rather it is the other way around, no one is bothering to respond to the technical argument. I say, it's because it's a real problem that they don't have an answer to. Well yes, exactly. That's the problem.

Great, you have an argument for a change - so go forth and implement it. Don't ASK for other volunteers to implement what YOU want. This is open source, people implement what they feel makes sense together with their peers. Nobody is 'just going to do the variant you want' - but you are free to do so and submit it as alternatives. Nobody claims systemd solves all issues, but it certainly solved some, at the cost of some different administrative interfaces. So,once and for all, please, stop this thread. I read enough of this nonsense in the last two days and really would like to see discussion about moving tumbleweed forward here, without running in circles and discussing the same fairy tales over and over. Cheers, Dominique

Op zaterdag 22 juli 2017 20:50:04 CEST schreef L A Walsh:

Stefan Bruens wrote:

...

On Freitag, 21. Juli 2017 19:26:02 CEST Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 7/21/2017 12:08 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

[...]

Donating time and effort is no service and no virtue unless it's actually a good thing.

That's true, but for any sane person with a little bit of comprehension, Richards post actually is "a good thing".

Not really. While Brian's post may not be welcome, having a list "owner", respond w/threats is hardly what I'd consider to be a good thing.

FWIW, I already threw away another 30+ line response (30 lines of my text, not quote) in this group in this thread, including pointing out that I also read this group but rarely post, as I don't usually have something "on-topic" to ask about.

That said, please note that Brian's responses here started with someone posting their "impressions" in this group, making me wonder what had happened that they could engage in "sharing" their "impressions" that no one had seemed to ask for and that didn't seem to be pertinent to any recent thread (not that I read them in depth but going by subjects).

Why didn't old-timers speak up against the original OT-base note, instead of letting the thread evolve & escalate into "tense, non-technical" responses by multiple "sides"?

Sigh.

...

Thanks for wasting everyones time, Stefan

--- Obviously, those who respond have, at least, enough time to respond to such topics. People who _really_ don't have the time, don't respond, let alone follow such an OT thread.

-l

Please leave this ML. Have your debates elsewhere. Consider this a warning from the stopSUSE Board. Once again, this has to stop. If you can't , leave. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Op zaterdag 22 juli 2017 21:09:21 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:

On 2017-07-22 20:56, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

Op zaterdag 22 juli 2017 20:50:04 CEST schreef L A Walsh:

Please leave this ML. Have your debates elsewhere. Consider this a warning from the stopSUSE Board. Once again, this has to stop. If you can't , leave. Yes, this has to stop, but you are not helping. On the contrary.

Carlos, explain the last bit on private email please. You know what I'm trying to do, don't you? -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, 21 July 2017 16:33:17 BST Brian K. White wrote:

On 7/21/2017 3:34 AM, ianseeks wrote:

...

On Thursday, 20 July 2017 23:18:43 BST Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 7/19/2017 10:21 PM, James wrote:

...

I left opensuse@opensuse.org because of the bickering. I was not getting much out of it. I want to be a member of openSUSE but not at the cost of having to bicker about one thing or another all the time. Or, the way someone words something. I really enjoy this distro. As I've told some folks, I used mac for 7 years before settling on openSUSE. I tried several .deb versions and even devuan. None set my feelings as this one. And I like the rolling releases. It matches Windows, Mac, Gentoo, and a couple others now. I dont care for Leap as that is a maintained periodic release like Fedora. So, the bickering just turns me off.

jim.

You are committing bickering with this very post.

This very post of yours, also includes no interesting on-topic information or question relating to opensuse development.

Now tell us again how terrible such people are who do that.

Why don't you remind yourself and check out the pointless email you sent to opensuse last tuesday about linus's comment causing a huge pointless thread before you lecture others....

This one's easy. I don't agree it was either pointless or off-topic. It was completely pointless or off-topic and descended in the useless thread it always does and the subsequent fallout. The personal opinions on that subject were dealt with and closed years ago.

As I expressed in that thread, I don't think opensuse should have followed the herd into using systemd.

Subsequently, when people said essentially "Well it's done now, get over it." I pointed out what should be stunningly obvious to such smart people. The init system can obviously be changed, since, we just changed it. That inarguably demonstrates that it can change, again.

The implication being, to something which does not infect all other apps and services with proprietary special dependencies, and which returns ultimate in-a-pinch control to the owner/operator, without a large complex binary black box binary doing a lot of inscrutable magic while you are trying to operate a system where all the normal magic isn't actually working.

You confuse "topic I don't like" with off-topic. No confusion at all.

Anyway, this subject is now closed for me as its also a waste of time. -- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170712 Qt: 5.9.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0 KDE Plasma: 5.10.3 kwin 5.10.3 kmail2 5.5.2 akonadiserver 5.5.2 Kernel: 4.11.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.15_1.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/07/17 09:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-07-20 01:30, James wrote:

...

This is the impression I had of this list:

https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Factory

You need to look at this one instead, for mail list info:

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels#Mailing_lists

opensuse-factory@opensuse.org - This is the list for technical discussions related to the development of the openSUSE Distributions..

It does not limit the mail list to a single distribution ;-)

Thanks for pointing it out, I updated the description on the factory portal to match because its a much better description (one of the joys of a wiki is anyone can do this). -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 2017-07-20 02:10, Simon Lees wrote:

On 20/07/17 09:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2017-07-20 01:30, James wrote:

...

This is the impression I had of this list:

https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Factory

You need to look at this one instead, for mail list info:

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels#Mailing_lists

opensuse-factory@opensuse.org - This is the list for technical discussions related to the development of the openSUSE Distributions..

It does not limit the mail list to a single distribution ;-)

Thanks for pointing it out, I updated the description on the factory portal to match because its a much better description (one of the joys of a wiki is anyone can do this).

Ah, you reminded me of this, thanks. I took the liberty of adding info about opensuse@opensuse.org list at the communication channels page. Strange there was nothing said about it there. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)