2011/12/28 Cristian Rodríguez :

On 27/12/11 21:24, Nelson Marques wrote:

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1. You will need to provide at least the text plugins (and I believe you can pass default color arguments during build);

Yes, text and details , those are obviously mandatory.

r less proposing something very close to a vendor lock

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forcing people to engage into nasty ways.

No, I'm proposing focusing on doing one thing right rather than N number of half working, half consistent.

By adding a few dependencies and splitting a package? Interesting... are you also going to remove the script that changes the themes? (it needs work, I think it's prepared for dracut). NM

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On Wednesday 28 December 2011 02:24:28 Brian K. White wrote:

On 12/27/2011 7:24 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

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2011/12/28 Cristian Rodríguez:

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Today I looked into Plymouth and got it somehow working quickly, I want to propose the inclusion of this replacement of bootsplash, under the following

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constrains: For an RFC you seem to have your mind pretty much decided :/

It's rather a pattern.

Yes thats just what i was thinking as well , Wonder what the next bit of ALPHA junk is we will get thrown at us as ready for use Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.10-0.4-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.6.5 (4.6.5) "release 7" 07:28 up 2 days 7:11, 5 users, load average: 1.00, 1.00, 1.00 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 28 December 2011 07:59:38 Anders Johansson wrote:

On Wednesday 28 December 2011 07:30:22 Peter Nikolic wrote:

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Yes thats just what i was thinking as well , Wonder what the next bit of ALPHA junk is we will get thrown at us as ready for use

plymouth has been around for almost 5 years, so I think it's a bit unfair to call it alpha.

Anders

That it may have but as far as opensuse goes it has never made distro so it is not tried and tested yet . Lets have it in testing till around os13.5 then maybe put it up for a distro i am getting fedup with changes for changes sake just because someone fancy's frelling it up again Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.10-0.4-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.6.5 (4.6.5) "release 7" 14:28 up 2 days 14:10, 5 users, load average: 1.25, 1.22, 1.13 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/Plymouth 2011/12/28 Claudio Freire :

On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Peter Nikolic wrote:

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Lets have it in testing till around os13.5 then maybe put it up for a distro  i am getting fedup with changes for changes sake just because someone fancy's frelling it up again

So... I don't know plymouth.

What does it do better than bootsplash?

From the thread, I can guess it integrates better with systemd and functions as a password agent for it... right? I think that's a good point in itself.

What else? People will need to know why it's worth replacing before commenting.

PS: I really don't care if we have only one theme, as long as I can plug my own theme rather easily (ie: as easy as it would be with upstream).

PS2: do consider the nvidia-binary case. Lots of users, not the least of which is me. I could probably do some testing, not sure I can install a whole 12.1 in any nvidia machine of mine, but I can install plymouth on an 11.4 I have with a very strange nvidia+intel combo that makes bootsplash intermittently fail, and I might be able to burn some live dvds and test on some other hardware. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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2011/12/28 Claudio Freire :

On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

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http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/Plymouth

"For systems that don't have DRM mode settings drivers, plymouth falls back to text mode **(it can also use a legacy /dev/fb interface)**." (emphasis added)

It's been like that for years... but you can also pass "vga=0x###" if you don't have KMS and you should see plymouth theme without issues, though in this case the screen will flicker 1 time. In case people are not aware, the terminology 'flicker' is used to describe a mode change.

So, it doesn't have to go to text mode, it can go to low-res/slow vesa modes.

Yes, but you can also go to text mode if you like. So for all of those who don't want plymouth.

If it can be configured to reliably work like that, it solves quite a few complaints on this thread.

Plymouth requires almost no configurations. For a end user the only configuration is made through a script/wrapper supplied with plymouth.

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On Wednesday 28 December 2011 09:26:30 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 28.12.2011 08:58, schrieb Anders Johansson:

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Does plymouth still require kms? If it does, I don't think it will be such a great idea to do away with bootsplash, and require people with nvidia cards to boot in text mode.

Huh? I just installed on a NVidia based nettop and do not need textmode? Works just fine with KMS out of the box. The same with one of the kids machines...

With the binary driver? Or are you using nouveau nouveau isn't really an acceptable solution for people who want high performance graphics Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2011/12/28 Anders Johansson :

On Tuesday 27 December 2011 21:09:37 Cristian wrote:

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- enable building of systemd-plymouth package, actually changing %build_plymouth variable in systemd.spec

- Take a look to the initrd related code, as well as "cryptsetup" integration that looks somewhat strange currently.

- Install "bootsplash" only with legacy sysvinit.

Does plymouth still require kms? If it does, I don't think it will be such a great idea to do away with bootsplash, and require people with nvidia cards to boot in text mode.

That should be a relevant question to Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian and other users who have nvidia and have plymouth available for years.

If we can make the installer clever enough to detect when plymouth will fail, and use bootsplash then, it might work, but dropping bootsplash completely I think would be a major mistake

Plymouht doesn't fail.

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2011/12/28 Anders Johansson :

On Wednesday 28 December 2011 09:23:39 Nelson Marques wrote:

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2011/12/28 Anders Johansson :

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On Tuesday 27 December 2011 21:09:37 Cristian wrote:

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- enable building of systemd-plymouth package, actually changing %build_plymouth variable in systemd.spec

- Take a look to the initrd related code, as well as "cryptsetup" integration that looks somewhat strange currently.

- Install "bootsplash" only with legacy sysvinit.

Does plymouth still require kms? If it does, I don't think it will be such a great idea to do away with bootsplash, and require people with nvidia cards to boot in text mode.

That should be a relevant question to Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian and other users who have nvidia and have plymouth available for years.

Yes it would. The nvidia binary driver doesn't support kms and every doc for plymouth I have found says it requires kms or will drop to text booting

Nice, maybe you should take the KMS issue to nvidia and not here? Wouldn't that probably help? but for your information in case you missed it, people are using plymouth with nvidia proprietary drivers on others distro's as well. So the driver doesn't support KMS... nice! You can still use the vga=0x$$$ (which you already use in openSUSE for bootsplash) and it works fine. You get a single mode change... is that so much of a problem to bash down one of the most requested features for openSUSE ? If you are not part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem.

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If we can make the installer clever enough to detect when plymouth will fail, and use bootsplash then, it might work, but dropping bootsplash completely I think would be a major mistake

Plymouht doesn't fail.

That is impressive then. It would make it the first non-trivial program in the history of mankind. Some sort of award would be in order

Keep the sarcasm for yourself, it hasn't failed me a single time on Fedora or openSUSE (yes I did had it working on openSUSE since the 11.3 cycle, the only thing missing was the support for encrypted volumes).

But to me a graphical boot fails when it has to drop to text mode. Technically not a failure since it is according to spec, but tell that to a new user who looks at a system as a potential replacement for windows. Neither fedora nor debian comes even close to being candidates for that market. Ubuntu would, so I wonder if it really is default there

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On Wednesday 28 December 2011 12:03:48 Nelson Marques wrote:

is that so much of a problem to bash down one of the most requested features for openSUSE ?

first of all, I wasn't bashing, I was asking. It was a request for comments, and I made a comment. I read in the docs for plymouth that it needs kms, and that would be a major problem. Secondly, I'm not sure which part of this you think is a very requested feature.

If you are not part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem.

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2011/12/28 Anders Johansson:

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On Tuesday 27 December 2011 21:09:37 Cristian wrote:

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- enable building of systemd-plymouth package, actually changing %build_plymouth variable in systemd.spec

- Take a look to the initrd related code, as well as "cryptsetup" integration that looks somewhat strange currently.

- Install "bootsplash" only with legacy sysvinit. Does plymouth still require kms? If it does, I don't think it will be such a great idea to do away with bootsplash, and require people with nvidia cards to boot in text mode. That should be a relevant question to Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian and other users who have nvidia and have plymouth available for years. Yes it would. The nvidia binary driver doesn't support kms and every doc for

On Wednesday 28 December 2011 09:23:39 Nelson Marques wrote: plymouth I have found says it requires kms or will drop to text booting

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If we can make the installer clever enough to detect when plymouth will fail, and use bootsplash then, it might work, but dropping bootsplash completely I think would be a major mistake Plymouht doesn't fail. That is impressive then. It would make it the first non-trivial program in the history of mankind. Some sort of award would be in order

But to me a graphical boot fails when it has to drop to text mode. Technically not a failure since it is according to spec, but tell that to a new user who looks at a system as a potential replacement for windows. Neither fedora nor debian comes even close to being candidates for that market. Ubuntu would, so I wonder if it really is default there

Anders It's available but it's not the default in Ubuntu 11.10 but I've seen it in an earlier version on ARM that I can remember, may be 10.04. No

On 28/12/11 11:19, Anders Johansson wrote: problems with it at that time. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plymouth/+bugs Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot, Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mercredi 28 décembre 2011 à 08:58 +0100, Anders Johansson a écrit :

On Tuesday 27 December 2011 21:09:37 Cristian wrote:

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- enable building of systemd-plymouth package, actually changing %build_plymouth variable in systemd.spec

- Take a look to the initrd related code, as well as "cryptsetup" integration that looks somewhat strange currently.

- Install "bootsplash" only with legacy sysvinit.

Does plymouth still require kms? If it does, I don't think it will be such a great idea to do away with bootsplash, and require people with nvidia cards to boot in text mode.

It does requires KMS for "supported" graphical chipset, ie Intel / ATI / Nouveau. For other, it fallbacks to what the kernel is providing : if it is booting with vga=xxx, it will use graphical framebuffer (so, you get a graphical boot for Nvidia or ATI proprietary drivers). Otherwise, it will fallback to text mode.

If we can make the installer clever enough to detect when plymouth will fail, and use bootsplash then, it might work, but dropping bootsplash completely I think would be a major mistake

No, we should drop bootsplash completely. We really don't want to maintain two splash implementations (in fact, three, since suspend is still using splashy to talk to framebuffer, but we could now use a patch I wrote when I switched Mandriva to plymouth so suspend can use plymouth do do a graphical suspend. -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

One of several things that keeps me using openSUSE in spite of the overall deterioration in its QC since so much paid help was laid off is that it puts off incorporating the newest bling until after other distros have spent substantial time debugging it. Another is its relative ease of disabling bling. *buntu's, Fedora's & Mandriva's default boot bling has seriously put me off - it's hard to entirely get rid of. One of the things I hate about Windows is its hidden boot process, which curtains and prevents following progress, as well as seeing progress delayed or halted when something is wrong. Text boot is just the opposite, keeping me apprised of progress and speed, and using the (readily configurable) whole screen to do so. I don't think just because anyone is moving from Windows to Linux is reason to think they'd rather be kept in the dark during boot as with the OS they are _leaving_ or considering leaving. After all, surely they expect differences, one of which must be the ability to be apprised of what's going on once in a while, if not routinely. To me, "flicker" is just another indication something is happening, no indication something is "wrong". I'm vastly more bothered by a semi-visible "progress" bar hiding in a small portion of the display, or lack of indication when something isn't right. I really don't care whether Plymouth is in the distro or not, as long as it is dead simple to avoid from the beginning and won't be pulled in later from some misplaced dependency on some theme or something that's actually useful. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 29.12.2011 05:18, schrieb Felix Miata:

Another is its relative ease of disabling bling. *buntu's, Fedora's & Mandriva's default boot bling has seriously put me off - it's hard to entirely get rid of.

Are you sure you tried it? At least for Fedora (I still had the virtual CD in the virtual machine so I just tried it) it is a simple removal of "rhgb" on the kernel command line. Does not look that much harder than on openSUSE... -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mercredi 28 décembre 2011 à 14:27 +0100, Bruno Friedmann a écrit :

On 12/28/2011 01:09 AM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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Hi:

Today I looked into Plymouth and got it somehow working quickly, I want to propose the inclusion of this replacement of bootsplash, under the following constrains:

- It will be only supported when running in conjunction with systemd. (it has native integration with it)

- Users are free to package or create their own themes, but we provide only ONE theme, consistent "looking" between desktops whatever the openSUSE artwork theme decides.

Steps:

- enable building of systemd-plymouth package, actually changing %build_plymouth variable in systemd.spec

- Take a look to the initrd related code, as well as "cryptsetup" integration that looks somewhat strange currently.

- Install "bootsplash" only with legacy sysvinit.

That's all for now.

If we start (restart) that way, think also to remove all kind of fancy other splash we have like the hard dependency in suspend.

I wrote patch to add support for plymouth to suspend two (or maybe three) years ago. It is still waiting in upstream suspend mailing list. And you can grab it from Mageia source package.

- be sure it offer a password prompt to unlock full encrypted system with the correct keyboard layout

It does (and it does it in a nice graphical way). The only issue (back when I integrated plymouth at Mandriva, it might have changed since) was not having text available until initrd is done (since fonts display is relying on pango and we didn't put pango on initrd).

- be sure to include in openQA specific tests for it (including suspend ram, disk and wake up serveral times)

- be sure to have a nice and clean description how to manage the artwork nicely & quickly Plymouth have a quite verbose explanation of its "script" language (when you write a splash using it, it is not mandatory) : http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/Plymouth/Scripts

If it's able to support the native resolution nvidia offer (in my case 0x34d) then everything will just goes fine :D

It should be able to handle it and even better, it rescale splash on its own, so our artwork team won't have to create several splash for several screen ratio.

I remember that plymouth need some (heavy?) patches for gdm,kdm,ldm,xdm,lightDM? what the situation actually?

I think gdm has them integrated (either in our openSUSE package or maybe even upstream). Can't say for other DM, but as the work was done in other distributions, I would strongly suggest to look at Mageia packages for any patches.

I've also heard a lot that our mkinitrd should be move to drakut to have a nice integration in plymouth, then creating another not yet ready for openSUSE brick in the puzzle.

It is not a hard requirement for switching to plymouth. -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org