On Tuesday 2019-06-04 15:19, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:

On Tue, Jun 04, Igor Gnatenko wrote:

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Groups are hard to choose (I would rather prefer to see some kind of tags), there is no check from RPM itself (it is basically free-form text field) and usually you can't put application into one group because they belong to multiple groups.

If I look at the Group tags from openSUSE spec files: somebody copies a draft specfile, somebody has no idea, doesn't find the right group, whatever: many Group entries are wrong, useless or something similar,

Most Group entries are actually right, good enough, or something similar. I have to know. A bot sends me a mail about every openSUSE:Factory submit request, and I should be known as someone who jumps at metadata any time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:09, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback

That's twisting reality quite a bit there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:50, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

Jan Engelhardt píše v Út 27. 08. 2019 v 09:46 +0200:

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On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:09, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

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Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback

That's twisting reality quite a bit there.

Your lonely complain is not a major pushback...

It must be said the proponents of removing it were _equally_ lonely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 27.08.19 um 10:41 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

On Tuesday 2019-08-27 10:23, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:50, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

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Jan Engelhardt píše v Út 27. 08. 2019 v 09:46 +0200:

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On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:09, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

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Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback

That's twisting reality quite a bit there.

Your lonely complain is not a major pushback...

[1] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00465.html [2] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00518.html [3] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00467.html [4] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2019-06/msg00055.html

So two people want to get rid of Group tags. Most package maintainers give a literal fuck: For them, the field might as well _stay_, because removing is work, too, and luckily there's a crazy German keeping the Group line up to date for them anyway. Not to mention that proposal of his to repurpose the field as a more useful Tags line. So, based on the old credo "those who do, decide", I do not feel forcing Group: out in a scripted fashion makes a very good picture of the efforts put in. And that pisses me off.

I see your point. But I think we really should eliminate *the need* to have a group line. Because for many packages it's just BS. Can we meet there? Greetings, Stephan -- Lighten up, just enjoy life, smile more, laugh more, and don't get so worked up about things. Kenneth Branagh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 8/27/19 1:20 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

[...] The Group tag has not been considered mandatory by tooling for a while, I believe. There is only polishing left:

Also the output of 'rpm -qi' would look strange: $ rpm -qi $PACKAGE | grep ^Group Group : Unspecified Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 7:51 AM Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am 28.08.19 um 09:38 schrieb Bernhard Voelker:

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On 8/27/19 1:20 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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[...] The Group tag has not been considered mandatory by tooling for a while, I believe. There is only polishing left:

Also the output of 'rpm -qi' would look strange:

$ rpm -qi $PACKAGE | grep ^Group Group : Unspecified

Sounds easy to patch in rpm

Unless it make it hide it iff it renders Unspecified and show up otherwise... That said, Zypper and YaST currently sort and organize RPMs via the Group tag. What are you going to do about that? You're going to need a better way to render that view if all the RPMs suddenly become "Unspecified"... -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 27. August 2019, 11:25:19 CEST schrieb Stephan Kulow:

I see your point. But I think we really should eliminate *the need* to have a group line. Because for many packages it's just BS. Can we meet there?

+1 OTOH, I cannot see a good reason to *actively* *eliminate* the Group line either, other than throwing away good work of good people. A thousand years ago, people incited the crusades, just because there were other people, that doesn't fit their expectations. Folks, don't incite a crusade against Group lines, please. They will not hurt you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried píše v Út 27. 08. 2019 v 10:02 +0200:

Am 27.08.19 um 09:09 schrieb Tomas Chvatal:

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Q: What about SLE and backporting to older releases? A: Packages without groups will generate RPMlint warning

Then please get a rpmlint update into SLE-{11,12,15}- {GA,SP{1,2,3,4}}. This is annoying as hell and creates support effort for many people.

It is just SLE-12 (GA+SP1+SP2+SP3) and 15. SLE11 I don't see any reason why that one should be done as it is under LTSS support for 2 months now. The fix is oneliner so I don't see a reason why not release that really. But honestly I don't consider it being too important. There are so many warnings there printed right now, with older codestreams even misleading... about update-alternatives/buildroot/clean... Only tw lists around 14 000 warnings on something like 7000 packages, which means 2 per pkg... https://rpmlint.opensuse.org/ If it would be an Error then I agree we would need to release rpmlint updates prior the change, but like this it is mostly noop. Tom

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 4:52 AM Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 27.08.19 um 09:09 schrieb Tomas Chvatal:

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Hi,

Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback on this I've created request to have next release of spec-cleaner to drop the group tag if encountered: https://github.com/rpm-software-management/spec-cleaner/issues/256

SLES11 rpm chokes on missing group tag.

If you can convince SUSE to backport the following fixes to SLE 11's rpm package, that'd be amazing: * https://github.com/rpm-software-management/rpm/commit/c094de4d1017af3ffbe89f... * https://github.com/rpm-software-management/rpm/commit/6c0651926aedc302816a0b... I just wish the issues with using stronger/better GPG keys wouldn't break rpm 4.4... I'm waiting patiently for the day that I can retire my weak RSA GPG key used for SLE 11 packages... -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 2019-09-03 14:19, Bernhard Voelker wrote:

On 8/27/19 9:09 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

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Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback on this I've created request to have next release of spec-cleaner to drop the group tag if encountered: https://github.com/rpm-software-management/spec-cleaner/issues/256

(Are there) next steps?

Since yast2-sw_single no longer displays groups, I have now made a basic alternate program to bring back the functionality of a software catalogue browser that, like yast2_sw, reads the Group: field and presents a tree. https://github.com/jengelh/rpm-catalog https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:jengelh:dev/rpm-catalog This is meant to operate with a modern tag/category/keyword list, akin to SO tags, placed in the Group: field. The program equally eats the "Foo/Bar/Baz" groups of current packages. Naturally, such a browser can only work if there is group/tag information to begin with. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 9/4/19 3:18 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

Since yast2-sw_single no longer displays groups, I have now made a basic alternate program to bring back the functionality of a software catalogue browser that, like yast2_sw, reads the Group: field and presents a tree.

https://github.com/jengelh/rpm-catalog https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:jengelh:dev/rpm-catalog

This is meant to operate with a modern tag/category/keyword list, akin to SO tags, placed in the Group: field. The program equally eats the "Foo/Bar/Baz" groups of current packages.

Naturally, such a browser can only work if there is group/tag information to begin with.

IIUC that means that we don't have to remove the existing 'Group:' line from the spec files, right? Thanks & have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 9/4/19 11:23 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Wednesday 2019-09-04 08:44, Bernhard Voelker wrote:

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IIUC that means that we don't have to remove the existing 'Group:' line from the spec files, right?

There was never a time that you had to remove it.

... apart from $SUBJECT (and e.g. the Fedora link in the 1st post). ;-) Thanks & have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org