Look everyone, this is a waste of time and effort - if I was on dial-up, I'd be really pi**ed off at having to download all this crap. It just so happens that on this occasion it wasn't a simple answer that could be solved by reading the man page (quite often the case) but the fact remains that there will always be people who will post a question without putting in any effort at all, no matter how often you tell them read the docs or search on the internet. As I've said before, a lot of people do search, but don't understand the results. So why don't we just agree that if someone wants to answer a question they can go ahead and do it: if they don't they can keep quiet? If the OP then complains about not getting an answer, we can tell them why. There have been a few questions recently that have sparked off lengthy debates quite unrelated to the original query, but all related to one another, thus demonstrating what a futile exercise arguing is. I'm as guilty as the next person but isn't it time we just got on with the business of the list? (whatever that is - there's another debate). David