Get ready folks! This is gonna be another one of those endless threads. :-( Tom On Mon, 2002-06-17 at 11:15, Kevin McLauchlan wrote:
On Monday 17 June 2002 10:52, Alex Daniloff wrote:
Sounds like you're primarily a Windows user. All your whining and grievances related to your inability to configure your system through graphical configuration interfaces and tools. Kind of select this menu click that button attitude. I can give a good advise: Get yourself a good Linux book and study the system guts. Practically all Linux user are testers and debuggers of their systems. It makes Linux more better and superior with every new release.
I sympathize, but there are two things wrong with what you said:
1) Getting intimate with the OS and learning all its guts is what geeks and enthusiasts do -- and that's a fine thing that, as you say, results in continuing improvement. However, over the protests of many Linux geeks, the distribution companies are trying to move beyond that model. They are attempting a model for Linux that everyday computer users -- the people who use it only as a tool to get their real work done, and who do not derive joy from endless configuration and debugging -- can embrace. In other words, the companies are trying to entice the ordinary user who does not consider it an opportunity for fun when the OS or the applications break during working hours. When the boss is waiting impatiently for the reports or the proposals, or the artwork, or.... (name something that is not code) whatever a business boss might legitimately require from the employees, then neither the boss nor the employee is smiling about this new opportunity to learn more about the guts of the tool.
2) The process that you describe (constant improvement by users who dig and debug everything) does not -- apparently -- apply to the GUI installers and setup tools. That's because all those eager geeks are busy testing and improving the non-gui parts and they disdain to even look at the gui parts. So, the GUI setup tools continue to have big holes in them. Those would be the tools that would be used by... oh.... say, Windows users attempting to come over from Windows, because they've heard that Linux is so great and can do all the stuff that Windows can, only better....
You sound as though you'd like to send all of us dirty Windows users back to the embrace of Uncle Bill, and deny our millions of dollars to such sell-out companies as.... Red Hat, SuSE, etc.
I agree that people using Linux for servers and network/system administration should develop a fairly comprehensive knowledge of the full OS (same for hobbyists and interested power users). People who just want to install it, fire it up, and start doing the same ordinary tasks they were performing on the same PC with Windows... should not need to learn all about what's under the hood.
Probably what's really needed here is a separation of this list into one that's very FAQ-like, and one that's very cryptic. You'd be happy with the cryptic list that assumes a lot of knowledge as a pre-requisite, and you'd not be bothered by all the FAQ-ish questions and "---- doesn't work!" messages. The newbies and the dabblers and the serious "I just need this to work as a TOOL and not a hobby" people would be happy with the other list.
I salute the maintainer of the Unofficial SuSE FAQ, but I point out that many of the things I want to know are either not in there, or are there in terms that don't catch my attention, because I'm accustomed to different terms. So, I bless the folks on this list who don't say "RTFM!" and "FAQ, you whining newbie!", and instead say things like: "RTFM, probably the sections on X and Y are what you need." or "See the ?? section in the FAQ (http://www.....) which sounds like what you are looking for." and especially "Stop pursuing this line of question. You'll only get more frustrated and lost. Try reading about *this* and *that* instead, and see if it helps."
I guess what I'm saying is that there's a need for knowledgeable people who remember the frustrations and the apparent discontinuities of being new or occasional to Linux. Bless the several who are here now!! But maybe a separation into two or three levels of mailing list would make it more bearable for the old hands who just want three-letter responses to tell them all that they need in order to solve a problem.
Or something like that...
A final thought: People who were power users of Windows and who had developed a comprehensive knowledge of the Registry and of command-line manipulations, are likely to know what to look for when they come to Linux. It won't have the same names, but at least they'll have the concepts and an idea of how they are all supposed to connect.
But, people whose only contact with the Windows OS was to log in and then to click on their REAL tools (office apps, SAP front-ends, etc.) are going to be reacting just the way you've seen them/us react. "Hey! They said Linux was ready for the desktop user. They lied?"
Remember, some people see a broken clock as an opportunity to take it apart and see what makes it tick... or not tick... Most people see a broken clock as a reason to buy a new clock. You are one of the former, and you are now encountering a bunch of the latter. At least be willing to acknowledge that the world would be a poorer place without people who buy new clocks.
It could be worse. Just wait until you get all the new users mailing their questions from AOL.... (buaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaa)
/kevin (a fumbler and dabbler)
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