Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (502 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-project] iChain or iPain?
On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 00:42 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:
On 2011-04-20 17:38:30 (-0400), Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Pascal Bleser
<pascal.bleser@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 2011-04-18 11:02:49 (+0200), Andreas Jaeger <aj@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
[...]
The build service team has been developing a completely new proxy server
that
uses ldap directly to get rid of the broken ichain proxy. The systems is
ready
but we would have loved to give it some more testing and had hoped that
ichain
would be with us a few more days...
[...]
But it is yet another example of something being developed as an
in-breed solution in a couple of offices at Maxtorgraben, 5 in
N├╝rnberg.
Pascal, I suspect this is one time where you got it wrong. Or at
least not as "right" as you think.

No doubt that happens :)

=============== details with timeline
The iChain/iPain problem only became critical a month or so ago.

Sort of. We've been plagued by hiccups for quite some time.
But it's not really the point :)

Looking back at emails on opensuse-buildservice, Mar. 26 is when I see
the first serious complaints.

It got a lot worse by then, that's for sure.
And iChain is an EOL product.

Then on Apr 5, the OBS team meeting minutes have:
===
* iChain remains to block connections, we work parallel on
- fixing the issue
- workarounding the issue for api.o.o
- getting a long term solution
===
Again, that was sent to opensuse-buildservice,
I don't know if those meetings are open, but it says the following
were present: mls, saschpe, coolo, adrian
So an interested party knew at that point that discussions were
ongoing and who the likely players were. They even had an email they
could reply to if they wanted to get involved or find out more
details.
[...]

Again, it isn't about this specific item.
Seems I still fail to get my point across, lemme try again :)

And, of course, I might be wrong. Or just missed the many
announcements and posts about stuff (OBS, connect, openfate).

My point is this: if you want contributors, then ask for
contributors from the start, and not when everything important
has been set into stone already.

Complaining that there isn't enough people who contribute to
projects when you fail at making it also 'their' project, and not
just 'your' project, is also by opening it up early enough.

And I don't see that happening. As said, that might just be me
not seeing that communication. But is it ?

cheers

Responding to several posts on this thread actually.

I would hardly characterize iChain only recently become an epic issue.
For as long as I've been in this community, "iPain" has always been an
associated moniker of iChain. it's a topic that has been brought up
frequently over the years and discussed at length in various venues.
And I would even submit that the recently debacle is actually a result
of the years of ire people have had against iChain, where an attempt to
move away from it singed our hair a bit.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against iChain itself. I actually
used to implement it for customers years ago and considered it a good
product. But, it was not a good fit for the openSUSE Projec'ts
community needs, and in some ways it even became a barrier to attracting
new contributors who did not want to go through the process of
registering with Novell in order to participate and utilize openSUSE
infrastructure.

With regards to "long threads and endless discussions" I think there is
actually a correlation between such threads and what Pascal is trying to
point out. It's my experience that when there is something tangible in
front of you, there's far less discussion. As long as there is nothing
tangible or concrete to look at and work with, people will go on and on
discussing this and that without any real meaning or solution.

So... if we went the way Pascal is pushing for, we would have put the
code directly in front of us. People who can actually understand and
work with it will zero in on actual issues and fixes and the rest of us
will be less likely to harp cuz we know a) its actually being worked on
by the community and b) we know when to shut up when its something we
can't give real contribution to (e.g. I'm not a coder so I'm unlikely to
comment on such a thread.)

So, Pascal's point is extremely relevant here. We *can* turn our
mailing list from a rant list to a solution list. But if we're only
given a chance to react to the fact, it gets harder and harder to assume
we can really attract more people to contribute to the project overall.

Don't get me wrong. This isn't a criticism of the end-product that
these people came up with for the iChain/iPain problem. I think its
fantastic and we should definitely join in by helping to "test hard" as
AJ said. But not putting it out on the table in front of us just
continues to further the pervasive perception that any real development
should and does occur internally on Novell's side. It's creating a
co-dependency issue and has real implications that won't be helpful to
us when we create the Foundation and start managing our own
infrastructure if we continue to stand by helplessly and assume "the
other guys" (Novell) take care of everything for us. Time for us to
grow up and talk it out and be able to see the solutions directly in
front of us.

Bryen


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