Hello, On Thu, 14 Aug 2014, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
FYI:
What a great summing up gem you found there! Thanks H-P! "Implementing systemd by distros is not a wise move for them over the long term. It will, in fact, be their ultimate undoing. [...] Who are these people anyway? Who are these self-appointed keepers of the Linux flame? [...] systemd is scary - not just because it's tools suck, or because it's a massive fucking hairball - but because architecturally it has way too much concentrated power." (I'm tempted to cite almost all of that mail, but that'd be, well .. ;)
From a follow-up https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/13/235:
"For any account: Depending on a particular init system in a desktop environment is a *bug*." I'd expand that: "For anything to depend on a particular 'init' is a bug." Anyone else here ever booted with "init=/bin/sh"? You should be able to get your system up and running normally from there (calling init-scripts or doing (e.g. mounting) / starting stuff manually). I'm not sure about the zombie-reaping of shells-run-as-pid1 though. Oh, and yay, OpenBSD to the rescue? http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/gsoc2014.html#systemd And to those that always say "the discussion is done", I say: the alternatives were not yet there and systemd had not expanded / gobbled up that much yet. I guess nobody could imagine systemd to gobble up udev, syslog, dbus, login, ... and, again, I won't be surprised if in, say 1-2 years, glibc will be gobbled up by systemd as well. Nobody had that on the radar (except LP, KS and whoever else is behind systemd). So nobody ever thought about that there would be alternatives needed. "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisitio^W^Wsystemd!" And, as I read in the above lkml-thread: debian seems to use systemd-shim for now, which is what I propose. An 1MiB init is real huge, sysvinit is ~40k and still does a lot more than necessary. PID1 can be implemented in ~15 lines of C. Linux is about choice. Has always been. Just look at the plethora of distros, windowmanagers and desktop-environments. One could write a single monolithic shell-script (or other script or program) to run after a minimal init (as the ~15 liner on the boycottsystemd.org page). Or one could run a choice of more or less sophisticated stuff like sysvinit, upstart, openrc, whatnot. Run stuff like dbus/consolekit or not. Run just one getty on a serial line or fire up dozens of gettys on some terminals. Myself, I never needed udev, dbus, consolekit, and whatnot, though e.g. udev can do some nice stuff (at a cost, e.g. loading modules before they are needed), and an interface like dbus to control apps like kaffeine via command-line (and e.g. with xkeybind via mouse) is also nice. But xawtv-remote could do all that without dbus. But analog-(Sat)-TV is no more hereabouts. Etc. pp. As long as *I* have a choice, I'm all fine with all that newfangled stuff. And I do have built locally or forked some packages in my ~obs to build without e.g. pulseaudio, or whatnot. systemd takes away a very important and a huge chunk of choice. $ zypper ll | wc -l 3730 You get the idea (that's on my 12.1[1]). I run a 12.3 and a 13.1 on other boxen (remotely), and a 13.1 in a VM though. -dnh, yeah, I'll shut-up now, F'up2p set, if anyone replies on-list, that's not my fault but their _choice_(sic!). I'll try to refrain from answering any on-list replies as much as I can. [1] I stand before a choice: will openSUSE continue to be a choice for me? My "boycott systemd" thread was fired by finding a feasible alternative to systemd, I've not yet lost hope and I'm willing to work on it. Or do I "jump ship" and whereto? Gentoo or *BSD? -- "Windows NT has detected the following system change: Mouse has moved. Click 'OK' to reboot." -- Mike Andrews -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org