Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (1135 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-factory] About the Live CDs (PLEASE READ)
On 6/15/2012 2:02 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:
I assume the same is true when it comes to internet speed and bandwidth caps
and usb thumb drives. Saying "8G drives are $6 is actually kind of gross.
That means, all those 4G drives you already own are what? Throw them away
even though you paid $30 for them? Just gross.

You will never be able to provide a out-of-the-box solution for every
single consumer of openSUSE; You go for the majority... and so far in
countries like India, Brazil and others, optical media still plays a
major role where you don't have internet access. So nuking away 9%
storage that is available on optical media (either you use it or not)
just sounds a bit harsh for the sole purpose of allowing 4Gb sticks...

Well, I also payed almost 500€'s for my graphics adapter a few years
ago... Now it's pretty much obsolete... Yeah, it's gross to throw it
away now and pay 500€'s more for a new one which can rule on CRISIS ;)
But sure... that's how it works... things get obsoleted. Deal with it.

If you have so much servers and use cases, the cheaper thing to do is
to invest some time with Kiwi and make your own solution; maybe it's
gross for you (which most people will be able to live with that).

Keep in mind there's 7 billion more potential users, and you are just
1. Yeah I know... it's gross...

But not being gross and going into full offensive mode:

"The distinction between children and adults, while probably useful
for some purposes, is at bottom a specious one, I feel. There are only
individual egos, crazy for love." // Niccolo Machiavelli


I think you missed my point.
I'm primarily concerned with everyone else, NOT myself(*) , on that particular topic. *(except indirectly and in a larger sense of wanting something better for the world at large, of which I am a part)

*I'm* fine. *I* have access to lots of cheap usb sticks and can buy new ones every day for my own needs. And, regardless I can and often do create my own custom boot media and install media, usually based on the net install media.

I was saying that it was gross to have the attitude that "Since I can buy a usb stick, and only need one or a few for my own needs, and my pc's all boot ok from them, it's ok to expect and require everyone else in the world to buy usb sticks and be able to boot from them."

"8g sticks are $6" is both inconsiderate and doesn't scale at all. ONE usb stick might be $6, but some people need many of them. One might be $6 in a developed place but might be $50 or the equivalent elsewhere. You might have $6 to burn, but someone else might not have. Or $6 might be the equivalent of $60 somewhere else. And even if all of the above, there is still the fact that it's not really $6, it's 10x$6, or 50x$6, etc. $6 is nothing, but when you scale that by a million you just cost the world $6,000,000.00 vs $150,000.00 (1Mx$0.15 bulk blank cd-r price), and you just made a bunch of people have to live without since they just don't have a usb stick or not a big enough one or their pc doesn't boot from them or it may boot but it requires specific formatting you can't know and is different for everyone.

Now, if there were no other way to do it, then fine. You do need certain minimum things to have a useful computer at all. If for whatever reason a $6 usb stick were part of that, then so be it.

But this is something that is not an unavoidable technical requirement.
Generating a live media that fits in 700M and is usable as a usb image for those that want that (netbooks with no optical drives, people that want to be able to edit the media, etc) is totally possible.

I believe in trying to keep the requirements and bars as low as possible in general, on general principles. I don't think it should matter how many people we *think* would be cut out by not having a CD option. I think it's wrong to think in those terms in the first place. You just keep it because you can, until you actually can't, or it becomes clearly unreasonably costly.

Not forever. Not so far as to hold back meaningful progress. I'd probably still offer a floppy image if the kernel even fit on one, but I'm not willing to invest in creating and maintaining some weird boot loader floppy that that has a boot loader that can load a kernel from somewhere else, or a multi-floppy scheme.

I don't deny there's a line. I just have an opinion about where it is and what constitutes a good enough reason to move it.

--
bkw
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