Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (710 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-factory] The road to systemd for openSUSE 12.1
  • From: Kay Sievers <kay.sievers@xxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 20:16:51 +0200
  • Message-id: <1308334612.1379.76.camel@mop>
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 14:07 -0400, Robert Schweikert wrote:

On 06/17/2011 01:32 PM, Kay Sievers wrote:
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 13:26 -0400, Robert Schweikert wrote:

On 06/17/2011 01:11 PM, Kay Sievers wrote:
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 18:54 +0200, Dr. Werner Fink wrote:
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 05:09:17PM +0200, Kay Sievers wrote:
On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 16:37 +0200, Guido Berhoerster wrote:
* Kay Sievers<kay.sievers@xxxxxxx> [2011-06-17 12:13]:
From the side of the enterprise people: /usr mountable ro.
Please note that we have customers which are using exactly
this feature.

Sure, they will just need an initramfs that can do that, if they want
it
to work in the future.

Actually, the long-term goal is to merge the useless split of / and
/usr
back to /usr and be able to mount /usr ro on every system. It's the
same
model as Android is doing with /system.

On servers I always have /, /usr, (/usr)/home, /var, and /tmp on
separate filesystems in order to prevent accidentally filling up
/. I know others are doing the same and I think that is a
perfectly legitimate use case.

Sure, you only need to be able to mount /usr from initramfs. Init will
not care where it came from. But it will no longer be supported to start
init with an empty /usr.

Actually, /bin, /sbin, /lib, /lib64, ... should just be symliks to /usr,
which will be mounted by initramfs, and likely be read-only by default
in the future.

This is a bug of systemd and a violation of the FSH standard.
For server systems a nogo.

Yeah, it's a violation of the rules of the stone age. Many of them just
don't make sense anymore. We need to pick the nice parts of UNIX, and
leave the silly things behind us to be able to survive. And the split
of / and /usr very high on the list of things we like to get rid of.

Anyway, FHS documents current behavior, it can not be violated. If the
current behavior changes, FHS needs to change, and people actually
working on that.

Just double checked on that. There is no awareness at the FHS level that
systemd implementation is pushing for the removal of /bin, /sbin, /lib,
/lib64 and having everything pushed into /usr.

Better speak up soon at fhs-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx as the
next release of FHS is in the works right now.

We submitted only /run so far.

The rest is all work-in-progress, and nothing ready for any slow-moving
official FHS, or bike-shedding discussions. Stuff needs to work in
reality before it can be formalized. Distros will experiment with it
first. We are currently working on the initramfs code to make all that
possible.

Will be a while before anything gets officially submitted. Remember, FHS
documents behavior, does not set rules to follow.

Well, I'd say there will be a bunch of people that disagree with that
statement.

Since the "survive in the future" card has been played a couple of times
in this thread, here are my $0.02.

If systemd breaks the FHS there will be a lot of ticked of ISVs when
they have to change their build system and/or application to accommodate
whatever may break. Annoying app vendors is not the best way to achieve
success or "survive in the future". Not that a transition cannot be
completed, but when presented in the steamroller fashion as things are
presented here the reaction on the other side is probably not very positive.

Nobody talks about renaming things, stuff will still be there.

This is only about early boot and how things are brought up at bootup
time, mainly the task of moving / into /usr. And having a single
directory containing the _entire_ system, which can be shared read-only
across many instances.

And apps should not care what is mounted which way, as long as it's
there -- just like they don't care about the underlying storage, be it
nfs, or a disk, or iscsi.

Kay

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