Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-artwork (44 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-artwork] Proposal to merge mailing lists
On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Bryen M Yunashko <suserocks@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 02:36 +0000, Nelson Marques wrote:
On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 12:57 AM, Bryen M. Yunashko <suserocks@xxxxxxxxx>
Hi folks,

There's been a bit of noise in the past couple of months advocating a
merge of both the artwork mailing list and artwork IRC channel along
with the multimedia list into the marketing channel/list.


While I believe that multimedia and artwork could be folded into a new
possible opensuse-design with a responsible leader to work alongside
and coordinate efforts with marketing, I would never merge artwork and
multimedia with marketing.

Dear Sir,

This will be the last thing you will ear from me...

Perhaps you misread the subject line, but the line is "mailing lists"
not teams.  This discussion is not about merging teams.  The discussion

I haven't spoken in merging teams, but instead in merging maybe the
multimedia and artwork under the same list, never with marketing for
obvious reasons related to the differences of workflow (at least they
seem obvious to me).

is about merging a place where all voices are seen rather than the
disintegration we've seen in the past year.  Too many people are
complaining that they don't know which mailing list to sign up to
because everything is so spread out.

Too many times, we tell people "If you want to know about this, go here.
If you want to know about that, go there."  It's become too daunting and
intimidating to many newcomers.

I'm sure sending people to look for themselves in some of the lists
with most traffic is more user friendly.

Many feel that we're too spread out and thus not hearing enough or being
aware of what everyone is doing.  As such, that means it becomes harder
to build momentum to grow our community.  Worse yet, when not merged
properly, we create duplication of efforts.

Could you please provide a thread that represents such claims, so we
can have an objective view on what 'many' really means and what the
ideas expressed are, so we can actually take a serious look at it?

It is repeated comment and discussion topic that has been brought up a
number of times in -project meetings, -board meetings, -marketing
meetings and even in IRC channels when there are no meetings.   And in

I probably missed it on opensuse-project. Mind to share a link ?

many of those discussions, even artwork team members have been present.
I would advise you to pore through the meeting logs for at a minimum the
past 4 months, though its really been brought up even before then.

That's really helpful.

About community growth, so a monolithic stack merging completly
different lists will make it more attractive to new contributors?

I would argue that before the artwork mailing list was split off there
was a great deal of artwork discussions on the marketing list where it
used to be.  And a lot of good collaboration and interested folks

Used to be? But someone felt the need for splitting it... I only have
to take my hat before such person for doing the right thing.

participating.  Looking at the archives for the artwork mailing list,
you can see that the noise has dropped considerably since the splitoff.
We'd like to combine and re-start that noise decibel level again.

I'm thankful the 'noise' has dropped, that's only good. A bit more of
traffic would be nice though... But I don't see any real commitments
in advertising Artwork by Marketing or helping them out, instead I see
them trying to boss them around and 'own' them.

would just center more power in the hands of a few hand picked ?

What power are you referring to?  All that is proposed is a merging of
the mailing lists.  Nothing said at ALL about merging teams.  How are
you able to infer something that wasn't even brought up in this thread?
This is a silly attempt to create controversy where none existed.   In

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
nothing." - Edmond Burke

the past these mailing lists were all together and then it got split off
in the last year and people are saying in retrospect, maybe this wasn't
the wisest thing to do because now we're unable to keep higher track of
what's going on everywhere.  Too many mailing lists = less awareness and

Maybe you should invest your time in improving the management
processes (if you use any) to fix such situations and work them out
instead of looking for the easier solution that brings benefit to no
one and actually might have undesired side effects and collateral
damage. I'm sure you have contemplated them all (after all that's the
most important part of marketing)...

When a human being is sick, he seeks for a medic... An organization
when it's sick looks for Marketing, and you already stated some of the
symptoms, so please work them out... It's better to seek help on an
infection before it gets gangrenous and needs amputation.

At least once a month, sometimes more, many of us who are even
long-timers have been surprised to discover yet another mailing list or
channel that we didn't know was in existence because far too often we
keep spreading and splitting when there's clear overlap of topics in
many areas.

Nice organization and management skills...

However, before we do any merging, I have stated clearly to others that
the ultimate decision rests with the artwork team.  I am definitely in
favor of a merge, but would like to hear your thoughts in the  next few
days about the pros and cons of merging together.

It sounds that the decision is already taken. I make Jos words mine
now... "You are killing openSUSE".

Funny how you interpret things.   Immediately after my paragraph in
which I state that the decision to merge rests solely on the artwork
team, you state the decision is already made?   Seriously, Nelson.  Why
are you attempting to stifle discussion?  Are you really anti-community

No my friend... just trying to point the right way... if that's
anti-community, then I'll gladly embrace such title.

to the point that you don't want people to discuss pros and cons?  No
one made any decision.  No where is it stated that such a decision has
been made.  People in various teams and meetings have brought this topic
up consistently and recently asked me to accept the action item to bring
it up for discussion amongst the three mailing lists and see where
things go from there.   No one in any of these teams is saying "We're
going to merge whether you like it or not."

The pros and cons of what? The root of the problem (according to
previous statements of you) seem to be lack of organization and
operational procedures... Where's the discussion of that?

What's killing openSUSE isn't the open discussion that we're attempting
to create here, but your diabolical attempt to stifle open discussions.
At first I assumed maybe you misread because English isn't your native
language.  But considering conversations I've had with you and I know
you have an excellent handle on the English language in addition to
recent comments you made in -pt channel which were quite libelous, I can

Days like this are to rare to be handled with such heavy handed words
as 'libelous'. You should give an example of the defamations I did...
Maybe you don't like some of my political comments, but in most cases
I'm adressing people I know in person... I wonder if they feel the
same defamatory behavior you seem to point. You know, there is legal
background to handle defamatory behavior ;)

only assume you are attempting to misguide readers here into thinking
this thread is something other than what is stated in the original post
to serve your own personal satisfaction of only discussions that meet
your approval are allowed to be conducted.

I don't need to misguide no one, I don't even need to encourage them
to think by themselves because they already do ;)

I sincerely hope people ignore the rhetoric that you are creating here
and focus squarely on the request to discuss the pros and cons of such a
merge.  If the artwork team feels such a merge would prove unproductive,

Off topic: This reminds me of one of the scenes from Pulp Fiction:
"Don't be a square"

then we will recognize that.    If you are opposed to a merge of the
mailing lists, I (as well as others) respect it.  And we'd love to hear
your opinions as to why it should be so.  But attempts to derail
discussions and change the focus of the topic to something completely
off-the-wall can't possibly garner respect.

No need for my opinion, I'm sure our fellow artists know what to do
and will speak out for themselves!

If you feel that discussions should not be allowed, then  feel free to
state that unequivocally instead of couching it in an attempt to start a
flamewar by misdirecting other readers of this thread.

No my friend, I love a good in-depth discussion... what I don't like
is people to underestimate others intelligence and needs.


Now the good news, I'm informing the board later on that I'm revoking
my status as member by the following reasons:

* I'm a defender of rapists (according to our beloved community leader
and your pal);
* I'm the destroyer of openSUSE (according to our community leader);
* A diabolical devil worshiper (according to you, though I leave that
for God to decide upon);
* Anti-Communty fellow (according to you);

Get some fireworks and make a party! Over and _OUT_!


Nelson Marques

/* As cicatrizes lembram-nos de onde estivemos, mas não ditam para onde vamos */
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