[yast-devel] RFC: Drop yast2 sw_single CLI interface
Hi, I would like to drop yast2 sw_single CLI interface because zypper already do such job much better and if we drop it, then it simplify code and we have only one recommended solution which we need to maintain. Any comments, suggestion or complain. Josef -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/27/2013 11:14 AM, Josef Reidinger wrote:
Hi, I would like to drop yast2 sw_single CLI interface because zypper already do such job much better and if we drop it, then it simplify code and we have only one recommended solution which we need to maintain.
Any comments, suggestion or complain.
You better check with docu guys, if mentioned in our documentation, this would need to be changed there. Lukas -- Lukas Ocilka, Cloud & Systems Management Department SUSE LINUX s.r.o., Praha -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:22:18 +0200 Lukas Ocilka <lukas.ocilka@suse.com> wrote:
On 08/27/2013 11:14 AM, Josef Reidinger wrote:
Hi, I would like to drop yast2 sw_single CLI interface because zypper already do such job much better and if we drop it, then it simplify code and we have only one recommended solution which we need to maintain.
Any comments, suggestion or complain.
You better check with docu guys, if mentioned in our documentation, this would need to be changed there.
Lukas
Of course I will check man page and related stuff. In first phase I would like to know opinion if it make sense or if there is a reasons why to keep it. Josef -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:14:00AM +0200, Josef Reidinger wrote:
Hi, I would like to drop yast2 sw_single CLI interface because zypper already do such job much better and if we drop it, then it simplify code and we have only one recommended solution which we need to maintain.
Yes, but we should keep the shourcuts for the simplest use cases - show me the packager GUI: `yast2 -i` - show me the updater GUI: `you` In 12.3 there is a desktop file using that interface, /usr/share/applications/package-manager.desktop from desktop-data-openSUSE-12.3-3.2.2.noarch, via /usr/bin/package-manager from libzypp.rpm -- Martin Vidner, Cloud & Systems Management Team http://en.opensuse.org/User:Mvidner Kuracke oddeleni v restauraci je jako fekalni oddeleni v bazenu
Dne 27.8.2013 14:20, Martin Vidner napsal(a):
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:14:00AM +0200, Josef Reidinger wrote:
Hi, I would like to drop yast2 sw_single CLI interface because zypper already do such job much better and if we drop it, then it simplify code and we have only one recommended solution which we need to maintain.
I'm fine with the removal, this duplicated feature is not needed anymore and sometimes causes problems.
Yes, but we should keep the shourcuts for the simplest use cases - show me the packager GUI: `yast2 -i`
Just keep in mind that "yast2 -i package" is translated to "yast2 sw_single package" so if any package name is used on command line it should print an error message (and suggest using zypper instead). -- Ladislav Slezák Appliance department / YaST Developer Lihovarská 1060/12 190 00 Prague 9 / Czech Republic tel: +420 284 028 960 lslezak@suse.com SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/29/2013 02:08 PM, Ladislav Slezak wrote:
Dne 27.8.2013 14:20, Martin Vidner napsal(a):
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:14:00AM +0200, Josef Reidinger wrote:
Hi, I would like to drop yast2 sw_single CLI interface because zypper already do such job much better and if we drop it, then it simplify code and we have only one recommended solution which we need to maintain.
I'm fine with the removal, this duplicated feature is not needed anymore and sometimes causes problems.
Yes, but we should keep the shourcuts for the simplest use cases - show me the packager GUI: `yast2 -i`
Just keep in mind that "yast2 -i package" is translated to "yast2 sw_single package" so if any package name is used on command line it should print an error message (and suggest using zypper instead).
Or even better call zypper directly (with a deprecation warning). Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain Project Manager --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.com Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 659 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 084 001 Czech Republic http://www.suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Dne 29.8.2013 14:12, Jiri Srain napsal(a):
Or even better call zypper directly (with a deprecation warning).
I'd prefer just printing an error message with zypper equivalent with all parameters so it can be easily used via cut & paste, similar to gdb (for installing debuginfo packages) or command-not-found (to find the missing package). Starting zypper automatically looks too "smart" for me, I'd leave the decision to use zypper (or something else) to the user. -- Ladislav Slezák Appliance department / YaST Developer Lihovarská 1060/12 190 00 Prague 9 / Czech Republic tel: +420 284 028 960 lslezak@suse.com SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:36:52 +0200 Ladislav Slezak <lslezak@suse.cz> wrote:
Starting zypper automatically looks too "smart" for me, I'd leave the decision to use zypper (or something else) to the user.
Think of it in a different way. Majority of users are looking for performed operations, not tools that are used. If you plan to provide text ready for copy paste, you can issue warning: --------------------------------------------------------------------- "yast -i <package>" is depreciated, using "zypper install <package>" instead. --------------------------------------------------------------------- and then install package. This way 99% of users that follow old way, possibly following some out of date instructions, have nothing to do, and 1% that rely on some "yast -i" specific behavior have warning if result is not what they expect. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Aug 29 19:44 Rajko wrote (excerpt):
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:36:52 +0200 Ladislav Slezak <lslezak@suse.cz> wrote:
Starting zypper automatically looks too "smart" for me, I'd leave the decision to use zypper (or something else) to the user.
Think of it in a different way.
Majority of users are looking for performed operations, not tools that are used.
If you plan to provide text ready for copy paste, you can issue warning: --------------------------------------------------------------------- "yast -i <package>" is depreciated, using "zypper install <package>" instead. --------------------------------------------------------------------- and then install package.
This way 99% of users that follow old way, possibly following some out of date instructions, have nothing to do, and 1% that rely on some "yast -i" specific behavior have warning if result is not what they expect.
I think to be really backward compatible, there should be a popup that informs the user as shown above and waits a specific time for user accept or deny and if the timeout passed without user response the default action should be to run "zypper install <package>". In old YCP one would have used something like Popup::TimedAnyQuestion() to implement such a behaviour. This way "yast -i <package>" could still work even unattended. Perhaps some users call "yast -i <package>" in scripts? This might be of importance for those users that are not yet included in the 99% and 1% above ;-) Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH -- Maxfeldstrasse 5 -- 90409 Nuernberg -- Germany HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendoerffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:14:49 +0200 (CEST) Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.de> wrote:
Hello,
On Aug 29 19:44 Rajko wrote (excerpt):
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:36:52 +0200 Ladislav Slezak <lslezak@suse.cz> wrote:
Starting zypper automatically looks too "smart" for me, I'd leave the decision to use zypper (or something else) to the user.
Think of it in a different way.
Majority of users are looking for performed operations, not tools that are used.
If you plan to provide text ready for copy paste, you can issue warning: --------------------------------------------------------------------- "yast -i <package>" is depreciated, using "zypper install <package>" instead. --------------------------------------------------------------------- and then install package.
This way 99% of users that follow old way, possibly following some out of date instructions, have nothing to do, and 1% that rely on some "yast -i" specific behavior have warning if result is not what they expect.
I think to be really backward compatible, there should be a popup that informs the user as shown above and waits a specific time for user accept or deny and if the timeout passed without user response the default action should be to run "zypper install <package>".
In old YCP one would have used something like Popup::TimedAnyQuestion() to implement such a behaviour.
Popup in CLI is real pain and I think we should not do it this way. Complain to stderr sounds better for me.
This way "yast -i <package>" could still work even unattended. Perhaps some users call "yast -i <package>" in scripts? This might be of importance for those users that are not yet included in the 99% and 1% above ;-)
Well, goal of yast -i <package> is install package. Thats what documentation say, so if user depend on undocumented behavior he must be prepared that it can change without big noise. Josef
Kind Regards Johannes Meixner
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Aug 30 10:19 Josef Reidinger wrote (excerpt):
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:14:49 +0200 (CEST) Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.de> wrote:
On Aug 29 19:44 Rajko wrote (excerpt):
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:36:52 +0200 Ladislav Slezak <lslezak@suse.cz> wrote:
Starting zypper automatically looks too "smart" for me, I'd leave the decision to use zypper (or something else) to the user.
Think of it in a different way.
Majority of users are looking for performed operations, not tools that are used.
If you plan to provide text ready for copy paste, you can issue warning: --------------------------------------------------------------------- "yast -i <package>" is depreciated, using "zypper install <package>" instead. --------------------------------------------------------------------- and then install package.
This way 99% of users that follow old way, possibly following some out of date instructions, have nothing to do, and 1% that rely on some "yast -i" specific behavior have warning if result is not what they expect.
I think to be really backward compatible, there should be a popup that informs the user as shown above and waits a specific time for user accept or deny and if the timeout passed without user response the default action should be to run "zypper install <package>".
In old YCP one would have used something like Popup::TimedAnyQuestion() to implement such a behaviour.
Popup in CLI is real pain and I think we should not do it this way. Complain to stderr sounds better for me.
Can you tell what happens on your system when you call as root # yast -i <package> For me both on openSUSE 12.3 and on SLE11 "yast -i <package>" launches the yast package manager ("sw_single") ncurses UI. So I like to ask you what would be wrong with a popup when the ncurses UI runs anyway? Or is there a special command line option so that "yast -i <package>" would not launch any user interface?
This way "yast -i <package>" could still work even unattended. Perhaps some users call "yast -i <package>" in scripts? This might be of importance for those users that are not yet included in the 99% and 1% above ;-)
Well, goal of yast -i <package> is install package. Thats what documentation say, so if user depend on undocumented behavior he must be prepared that it can change without big noise.
Well, Ladislav Slezak <lslezak@suse.cz> wrote (see above): "Starting zypper automatically looks too 'smart' for me" which means that he would like to change the documented behavior. So I like to ask you Josef why the documented behavior can be changed in this case without big noise? Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH -- Maxfeldstrasse 5 -- 90409 Nuernberg -- Germany HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendoerffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/03/2013 02:41 PM, Johannes Meixner wrote:
Hello,
On Aug 30 10:19 Josef Reidinger wrote (excerpt):
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:14:49 +0200 (CEST) Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.de> wrote:
On Aug 29 19:44 Rajko wrote (excerpt):
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:36:52 +0200 Ladislav Slezak <lslezak@suse.cz> wrote:
Starting zypper automatically looks too "smart" for me, I'd leave the decision to use zypper (or something else) to the user.
Think of it in a different way.
Majority of users are looking for performed operations, not tools that are used.
If you plan to provide text ready for copy paste, you can issue warning: --------------------------------------------------------------------- "yast -i <package>" is depreciated, using "zypper install <package>" instead. --------------------------------------------------------------------- and then install package.
This way 99% of users that follow old way, possibly following some out of date instructions, have nothing to do, and 1% that rely on some "yast -i" specific behavior have warning if result is not what they expect.
I think to be really backward compatible, there should be a popup that informs the user as shown above and waits a specific time for user accept or deny and if the timeout passed without user response the default action should be to run "zypper install <package>".
In old YCP one would have used something like Popup::TimedAnyQuestion() to implement such a behaviour.
Popup in CLI is real pain and I think we should not do it this way. Complain to stderr sounds better for me.
Can you tell what happens on your system when you call as root # yast -i <package>
For me both on openSUSE 12.3 and on SLE11 "yast -i <package>" launches the yast package manager ("sw_single") ncurses UI.
So I like to ask you what would be wrong with a popup when the ncurses UI runs anyway?
The goal is not to start the NCurses UI and run zypper directly. There is no reason to depend on YaST. Also imagine a case when the NCurses UI is not installed. Jiri
Or is there a special command line option so that "yast -i <package>" would not launch any user interface?
This way "yast -i <package>" could still work even unattended. Perhaps some users call "yast -i <package>" in scripts? This might be of importance for those users that are not yet included in the 99% and 1% above ;-)
Well, goal of yast -i <package> is install package. Thats what documentation say, so if user depend on undocumented behavior he must be prepared that it can change without big noise.
Well, Ladislav Slezak <lslezak@suse.cz> wrote (see above): "Starting zypper automatically looks too 'smart' for me" which means that he would like to change the documented behavior.
So I like to ask you Josef why the documented behavior can be changed in this case without big noise?
Kind Regards Johannes Meixner
-- Regards, Jiri Srain Project Manager --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.com Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 659 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 084 001 Czech Republic http://www.suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Sep 3 14:48 Jiri Srain wrote (excerpt):
On 09/03/2013 02:41 PM, Johannes Meixner wrote:
Can you tell what happens on your system when you call as root # yast -i <package>
For me both on openSUSE 12.3 and on SLE11 "yast -i <package>" launches the yast package manager ("sw_single") ncurses UI.
So I like to ask you what would be wrong with a popup when the ncurses UI runs anyway?
The goal is not to start the NCurses UI and run zypper directly. There is no reason to depend on YaST.
I am puzzled now. For me what you say is basically "There is no reason that calling 'yast -i <package>' depends on YaST". For me this is a contradiction in itself as in "there is no reason calling 'grep' depends on grep". I did read the whole thread on http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2013-08/msg00116.html but I fail to understand what you actually mean. I guess you YaST core developers have some internal background knowledge that I do not have and therefore I fail to understand what you are talking about. I would appreciate it if you provide more background information. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH -- Maxfeldstrasse 5 -- 90409 Nuernberg -- Germany HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendoerffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 14:41:40 +0200 (CEST) Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.de> wrote:
Hello,
On Aug 30 10:19 Josef Reidinger wrote (excerpt):
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:14:49 +0200 (CEST) Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.de> wrote:
On Aug 29 19:44 Rajko wrote (excerpt):
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:36:52 +0200 Ladislav Slezak <lslezak@suse.cz> wrote:
Starting zypper automatically looks too "smart" for me, I'd leave the decision to use zypper (or something else) to the user.
Think of it in a different way.
Majority of users are looking for performed operations, not tools that are used.
If you plan to provide text ready for copy paste, you can issue warning: --------------------------------------------------------------------- "yast -i <package>" is depreciated, using "zypper install <package>" instead. --------------------------------------------------------------------- and then install package.
This way 99% of users that follow old way, possibly following some out of date instructions, have nothing to do, and 1% that rely on some "yast -i" specific behavior have warning if result is not what they expect.
I think to be really backward compatible, there should be a popup that informs the user as shown above and waits a specific time for user accept or deny and if the timeout passed without user response the default action should be to run "zypper install <package>".
In old YCP one would have used something like Popup::TimedAnyQuestion() to implement such a behaviour.
Popup in CLI is real pain and I think we should not do it this way. Complain to stderr sounds better for me.
Can you tell what happens on your system when you call as root # yast -i <package>
For me both on openSUSE 12.3 and on SLE11 "yast -i <package>" launches the yast package manager ("sw_single") ncurses UI.
So I like to ask you what would be wrong with a popup when the ncurses UI runs anyway?
Or is there a special command line option so that "yast -i <package>" would not launch any user interface?
Special is that it is expected to by non-interactive call to install someething. If you place popup here, then you force user to do some interaction ( and it doesn't work in script anymore ).
This way "yast -i <package>" could still work even unattended. Perhaps some users call "yast -i <package>" in scripts? This might be of importance for those users that are not yet included in the 99% and 1% above ;-)
Well, goal of yast -i <package> is install package. Thats what documentation say, so if user depend on undocumented behavior he must be prepared that it can change without big noise.
Well, Ladislav Slezak <lslezak@suse.cz> wrote (see above): "Starting zypper automatically looks too 'smart' for me" which means that he would like to change the documented behavior.
So I like to ask you Josef why the documented behavior can be changed in this case without big noise?
It depends on POV what is documented behavior. For me it is install package X without my attention and not open sw_single, do something and then exit and have package installed. If you check man page for yast and -i, then you can see, that there is nothing special documented. Just install package with respect to dependencies. Which fits exactly to zypper. Josef
Kind Regards Johannes Meixner
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
* Josef Reidinger <jreidinger@suse.cz> [Sep 03. 2013 15:19]:
Can you tell what happens on your system when you call as root # yast -i <package>
For me both on openSUSE 12.3 and on SLE11 "yast -i <package>" launches the yast package manager ("sw_single") ncurses UI.
Applying the principle of least surprise, calling "yast" (with whatever arguments) should run "yast" and not "zypper" imho. If yast is not installed, "yast -i" could print an appropriate message and point me to zypper. Klaus -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Sep 3 15:18 Josef Reidinger wrote (excerpt):
On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 14:41:40 +0200 (CEST) Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.de> wrote:
On Aug 30 10:19 Josef Reidinger wrote (excerpt):
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:14:49 +0200 (CEST) Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.de> wrote:
On Aug 29 19:44 Rajko wrote (excerpt):
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:36:52 +0200 Ladislav Slezak <lslezak@suse.cz> wrote:
Starting zypper automatically looks too "smart" for me, I'd leave the decision to use zypper (or something else) to the user.
Think of it in a different way.
Majority of users are looking for performed operations, not tools that are used.
If you plan to provide text ready for copy paste, you can issue warning: --------------------------------------------------------------------- "yast -i <package>" is depreciated, using "zypper install <package>" instead. --------------------------------------------------------------------- and then install package.
This way 99% of users that follow old way, possibly following some out of date instructions, have nothing to do, and 1% that rely on some "yast -i" specific behavior have warning if result is not what they expect.
I think to be really backward compatible, there should be a popup that informs the user as shown above and waits a specific time for user accept or deny and if the timeout passed without user response the default action should be to run "zypper install <package>".
In old YCP one would have used something like Popup::TimedAnyQuestion() to implement such a behaviour.
Popup in CLI is real pain and I think we should not do it this way. Complain to stderr sounds better for me.
Can you tell what happens on your system when you call as root # yast -i <package>
For me both on openSUSE 12.3 and on SLE11 "yast -i <package>" launches the yast package manager ("sw_single") ncurses UI.
So I like to ask you what would be wrong with a popup when the ncurses UI runs anyway?
Or is there a special command line option so that "yast -i <package>" would not launch any user interface?
Special is that it is expected to by non-interactive call to install someething. If you place popup here, then you force user to do some interaction ( and it doesn't work in script anymore ).
I do not understand your respose. Don't you read or do you misunderstand what I wrote? Did you really try out how it currently works up to 12.3? Currently (up to 12.3) "yast -i <package>" is an interactive call. Accordingly I suggested a popup with timeout that does a reasonable fallback operation when there is no user interaction so that it does not enforce user interaction. I explicitly mentioned in my other mail that this way it will even work in scripts. Currently "yast -i <package>" does not work in scripts when <package> cannot be installed: Try out "yast -i qqqq". Currently this hangs up with a popup that does enforce user interaction (user must click [OK]) - at least this is how it behaves on my 12.3 system. All you would need to do is to acutally run # yast -i qqqq versus # zypper in qqqq and compare how they behave.
It depends on POV what is documented behavior. For me it is install package X without my attention and not open sw_single,
This is not what actually happens on SLE11 and up to openSUSE 12.3 (at least on my SLE11 and 12.3 systems). If there is nothing special documented regarding UI, then (from my point of view) the current actual behaviour defines that. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH -- Maxfeldstrasse 5 -- 90409 Nuernberg -- Germany HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendoerffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
Jiri Srain -
Johannes Meixner -
Josef Reidinger -
Klaus Kaempf -
Ladislav Slezak -
Lukas Ocilka -
Martin Vidner -
Rajko