[yast-devel] Getting Rid of 2nd Stage Installation
Hi, I've just finished a blog entry [0] about how we were able to get rid of the second stage of installation. Our proposal has been already published at Stano's blog [1]. My blog currently shows a real applications of that proposal. Have a nice day Lukas [0] http://kobliha-suse.blogspot.com/2008/03/getting-rid-of-2nd-stage-installati... [1] http://visnov.blogspot.com/2008/02/getting-rid-of-2nd-stage-of.html -- Lukas Ocilka, YaST Developer (xn--luk-gla45d) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ano, ano. Moudry rozkaz. Sam jsem nemel v tech gratulacich jasno.
There are two sides to this. On one hand, getting rid of that second stage of installation makes the installation appear (!) shorter. And yes, of course we should set up automatically everything we can, but I have strong doubts if it's a good idea to not let the user change those settings - this is what the proposals are all about (figure out a good automatic setting, but let the user change it if he wishes). On the other hand, most of the things that can be configured in that second stage make sense to be configured at that point. What that second stage does is remind the user of all that stuff that makes sense to be configured. That's a whole lot simpler than going through the control center (which is increasingly cluttered with entries of minor importance). So if we remove that second stage, we might make some journalists happy who write reviews about the installation process and some very few power users who know by heart what's left to configure. But what about the rest of all users, which I estimate to be ~90%? Do we really make life easier for them if we leave much of the system unconfigured? Will they be happy about not being able to print when they need to just because it never occured to them to configure a printer? CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Hi! Dne Monday 10 of March 2008 12:07:35 Stefan Hundhammer napsal(a):
There are two sides to this.
On one hand, getting rid of that second stage of installation makes the installation appear (!) shorter. And yes, of course we should set up automatically everything we can, but I have strong doubts if it's a good idea to not let the user change those settings - this is what the proposals are all about (figure out a good automatic setting, but let the user change it if he wishes).
On the other hand, most of the things that can be configured in that second stage make sense to be configured at that point. What that second stage does is remind the user of all that stuff that makes sense to be configured.
I don't remember when I last configured anything during 2nd stage (well, I'm probably not typical user, anyway). I always just run through the workflow, clicking only the Next button. I've seen several reports of unexperienced users, who were confused by some of the dialogs. Configuring everything automatically helps here. Most of the users can run with the defaults, the others can configure missing parts after the installation.
That's a whole lot simpler than going through the control center (which is increasingly cluttered with entries of minor importance).
So if we remove that second stage, we might make some journalists happy who write reviews about the installation process and some very few power users who know by heart what's left to configure.
But what about the rest of all users, which I estimate to be ~90%? Do we really make life easier for them if we leave much of the system unconfigured? Will they be happy about not being able to print when they need to just because it never occured to them to configure a printer?
Not "unconfigured", but "configured to default values" which should work for most of them. Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz
On Monday 10 March 2008, Jiri Srain wrote:
I don't remember when I last configured anything during 2nd stage (well, I'm probably not typical user, anyway). I always just run through the workflow, clicking only the Next button.
but it's always a nice warm feeling in the tummy to see all the correctly configured hardware and stuff. Even though I just have to click "ok" :) Is it just a guess that people dont like the second stage or do we really have a survey or? We had a one click installation once and kicked that out for some reason. That confuses me a little bit. -- ciao, Uwe Gansert Uwe Gansert, Server Technologies Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Business: http://www.suse.de/~ug listening to: Almost Violent by ROTERSAND -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Stefan Hundhammer:
But what about the rest of all users, which I estimate to be ~90%?
What do you think 90% of our users change in second stage? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 01:25:46PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Stefan Hundhammer:
But what about the rest of all users, which I estimate to be ~90%?
What do you think 90% of our users change in second stage?
Well, getting the Online Update Repository URL is what most of them should get there at least ;) Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Marcus Meissner:
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 01:25:46PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Stefan Hundhammer:
But what about the rest of all users, which I estimate to be ~90%?
What do you think 90% of our users change in second stage?
Well, getting the Online Update Repository URL is what most of them should get there at least ;)
You think they configure their WPA in yast to then do it again with NetworkManager just to get the URL (we actually know from the start as it's the same for everyone :)? I don't think so. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 01:29:49PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Marcus Meissner:
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 01:25:46PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Stefan Hundhammer:
But what about the rest of all users, which I estimate to be ~90%?
What do you think 90% of our users change in second stage?
Well, getting the Online Update Repository URL is what most of them should get there at least ;)
You think they configure their WPA in yast to then do it again with NetworkManager just to get the URL (we actually know from the start as it's the same for everyone :)? I don't think so.
So, second question how about adding the generic URL for everyone? Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 01:29:49PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Marcus Meissner:
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 01:25:46PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Stefan Hundhammer:
But what about the rest of all users, which I estimate to be ~90%?
What do you think 90% of our users change in second stage?
Well, getting the Online Update Repository URL is what most of them should get there at least ;)
You think they configure their WPA in yast to then do it again with NetworkManager just to get the URL (we actually know from the start as it's the same for everyone :)? I don't think so.
So, second question how about adding the generic URL for everyone? You still have to kick the initial download of the updates. And if you do a "registration" before the first update or not shouldn't matter. Getting
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Marcus Meissner: the repo from the net has the huge advantage that it adds flexibility in case we find 11.0 to be too successful and we need 2 redirectors :) Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 10 March 2008 13:25, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Stefan Hundhammer:
But what about the rest of all users, which I estimate to be ~90%?
What do you think 90% of our users change in second stage?
Setting up a printer comes to mind, entering the DSL provider user ID and password (for those who don't have a WiFi/DSL router), to name just two. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Dne Monday 10 of March 2008 13:31:35 Stefan Hundhammer napsal(a):
On Monday 10 March 2008 13:25, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Montag 10 März 2008 schrieb Stefan Hundhammer:
But what about the rest of all users, which I estimate to be ~90%?
What do you think 90% of our users change in second stage?
Setting up a printer comes to mind, entering the DSL provider user ID and password (for those who don't have a WiFi/DSL router), to name just two.
Printer can be detected and configured automatically without user's interaction (I don't remember when last detection failed for me), additionally, CUPS 1.3 offers some kind of autoconfiguration (I have not yet tried it). DSL modems without routers are very rare nowadays IMHO (at least in the Czech republic, cannot speak for the rest of the world). Additionally, more than half of sold computers are nowadays laptops, where you require some mobility and prefer NetworkManager. Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz
On Monday 10 March 2008, Jiri Srain wrote:
DSL modems without routers are very rare nowadays IMHO (at least in the Czech republic, cannot speak for the rest of the world).
that's true for germany too I'd say
Additionally, more than half of sold computers are nowadays laptops, where you require some mobility and prefer NetworkManager.
That's a different topic maybe and I better don't open that door but how many of those Laptops do you think run Linux? Compared to the other half of non-Laptop machines? -- ciao, Uwe Gansert Uwe Gansert, Server Technologies Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Business: http://www.suse.de/~ug listening to: Social Distortion by ROTERSAND -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Hello, On Mar 10 13:52 Jiri Srain wrote (shortened):
Dne Monday 10 of March 2008 13:31:35 Stefan Hundhammer napsal(a):
Setting up a printer comes to mind ...
Printer can be detected and configured automatically without user's interaction
Since openSUSE 10.3 we have the new RPM "cups-autoconfig" which contains a utility for auto-configuring USB printers which is triggered by udev/HAL device events. On the one hand this tool is limited to USB printers, on the other hand it works independent of YaST e.g. even after the installation: E.g. when the USB printer was disconnected or switched off during installation, cups-autoconfig could automatiocally configure it once it is connected or switched on at any time later. Note that this tool neither comes from the CUPS authors nor is the RPM a sub-package of the cups RPM.
From CUPS's point of view it is a "third-party" tool.
Since cups-autoconfig exists, there is actually no longer any need to let the YaST printer module do the autoconfiguration. Since cups-autoconfig the YaST printer setup module can focus on manual printer setup (i.e. all those cases where cups-autoconfig cannot/doesn't work). By the way: Have a look at http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/Printer_Enhancement in particular regarding "cups-autoconfig" see http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Printer_mschmidkunz_rc2_overview_autoconfig.png By default cups-autoconfig disables/enables print queues when udev/HAL events appear that a USB printer is disconnected/connected. Its /etc/cups-autoconfig.conf contains by default: -------------------------------------------------------------- [CUPS] ConfigureNewPrinters=yes DisablePrintersOnRemoval=yes DefaultCUPSPolicy=relaxed Debug=yes -------------------------------------------------------------- It is triggered via /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/10-cups-autoconfig.fdi which runs /usr/lib/cups-autoconfig/cups-autoconfig which does the actual stuff, see /usr/lib/cups-autoconfig/cups-autoconfig --help (you must run even '--help' as root, otherwise you get errors) Debugging output is in /var/log/cups-autoconfig.log For some background information, see http://code.google.com/p/cups-autoconfig/ Regarding automated scanner configuration, see https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=347943 If automated printer or scanner configuration doesn't work and the user has problems to find the YaST printer or scanner module for a manual setup, it is a usability problem of the YaST control centre which is also already worked on as far as I know. Summary: I appreciate "Getting Rid of 2nd Stage Installation" very much. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
participants (7)
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Jiri Srain -
Johannes Meixner -
Lukas Ocilka -
Marcus Meissner -
Stefan Hundhammer -
Stephan Kulow -
Uwe Gansert