poor UX in case of fatal error during installation
Hello, today morning I did a somewhat older openSUSE Tumbleweed Snapshot20210423 test installation on a KVM virtual machine. Something went wrong during package installation but I could not read the error message because YaST exited and about one second later I was in linuxrc with its ncurses Error/Exit screen. Because what I actually wanted to do is to "just try out something on Tumbleweed" but that error exit interrupted my ongoing work so I did not do a major mental task switch to dig out the error message and YaST logs. Instead I simply exited and retried with an up to date openSUSE Tumbleweed Snapshot20210914 which worked. I guess the error was so fatal that YaST could not do anything else than to exit straight. But the UX is poor in such cases because in practice it is then basically impossible for the user to make a meaningful issue report. I wished there was an easy way how to get the error message and YaST logs out of the installation system in such cases. The installation system had Internet access so if there was some YaST error exit dialog where error message and YaST logs could be sent e.g. to any email address or something similar (which the user could enter/specify as he likes), then it would be easy for the user to make later (after he completed his current actual task) a meaningful issue report. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 - 90409 Nuernberg - Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nuernberg) GF: Felix Imendoerffer
Dne 17. 09. 21 v 14:59 jsmeix napsal(a):
I wished there was an easy way how to get the error message and YaST logs out of the installation system in such cases. [...] The installation system had Internet access so if there was some YaST error exit dialog where error message and YaST logs could be sent e.g. to any email address or something similar (which the user could enter/specify as he likes),
Um, there are several problems: - Technical issues: what we should support? Email? Gdrive/OneDrive/DropBox/...? That's not simple... - Usability: For sending email you need to know the SMTP server address, port number and your username and password. I guess most people simply do not know that... And for the rest you might need 2FA which makes it quite complicated... - Legal/privacy issues: the logs might contain some private/sensitive data like passwords or registration codes (well, normally those data should not be logged, but if you run with Y2DEBUG on....), uploading that to a 3rd party server might be problematic.
then it would be easy for the user to make later (after he completed his current actual task) a meaningful issue report.
But maybe we could directly report a bug in our bugzilla and upload the logs directly. We would just need to ask for the bugzilla credentials. Ideally we could add a search functionality before reporting a bug, e.g. if YaST crashes at foo.rb:42 and we find that location in a bug title we could simply tell the user that the bug seems to be already reported, saving us a lot of work with duplicates. But I have just little experience with Bugzilla API, I do not know if that would be actually possible... -- Ladislav Slezák YaST Developer SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. Corso IIa Křižíkova 148/34 18600 Praha 8
jsmeix composed on 2021-09-17 14:59 (UTC+0200):
I wished there was an easy way how to get the error message and YaST logs out of the installation system in such cases.
The installation system had Internet access so if there was some YaST error exit dialog where error message and YaST logs could be sent e.g. to any email address or something similar (which the user could enter/specify as he likes), then it would be easy for the user to make later (after he completed his current actual task) a meaningful issue report.
Susepaste was added to installation system 6 months ago: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1182212 If not good enough as is, couldn't it be adapted to optionally send to BZ and/or an email address? -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 2021-09-17 14:59, jsmeix wrote: ...
Something went wrong during package installation but I could not read the error message because YaST exited and about one second later I was in linuxrc with its ncurses Error/Exit screen. ... But the UX is poor in such cases because in practice it is then basically impossible for the user to make a meaningful issue report.
As long as that red "an error occurred" linuxrc popup is still open, you can switch to console 2 and use "save_y2logs" and copy the logs away. That has been clearly documented since the very first version of the Bug Reporting FAQ that I wrote (yes, my version was the original!) almost 20 years ago. ;-) https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Report_a_YaST_bug#I_get_a_red_text_pop-up_t... SCNR ;-) CU
On 2021-09-20 10:26, shundhammer wrote:
On 2021-09-17 14:59, jsmeix wrote: ...
Something went wrong during package installation but I could not read the error message because YaST exited and about one second later I was in linuxrc with its ncurses Error/Exit screen. ... But the UX is poor in such cases because in practice it is then basically impossible for the user to make a meaningful issue report.
As long as that red "an error occurred" linuxrc popup is still open, you can switch to console 2 and use "save_y2logs" and copy the logs away.
That has been clearly documented since the very first version of the Bug Reporting FAQ that I wrote (yes, my version was the original!) almost 20 years ago. ;-)
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Report_a_YaST_bug#I_get_a_red_text_pop-up_t...
SCNR ;-)
I know, I know, but my mail was --------------------------------------------------- because what I actually wanted to do is to "just try out something on Tumbleweed" but that error exit interrupted my ongoing work so I did not do a major mental task switch to dig out the error message and YaST logs. --------------------------------------------------- Just read what I wrote ;-) SCNR too ;-) Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 - 90409 Nuernberg - Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nuernberg) GF: Felix Imendoerffer
On 2021-09-20 11:14, jsmeix wrote:
I know, I know, but my mail was --------------------------------------------------- because what I actually wanted to do is to "just try out something on Tumbleweed" but that error exit interrupted my ongoing work so I did not do a major mental task switch to dig out the error message and YaST logs. ---------------------------------------------------
Just read what I wrote ;-)
If this is already a "major mental task", then just forget it and don't complain; it can't mean much to you. We don't optimize for this case. Kind regards HuHa
Hello, On 2021-09-21 10:37, shundhammer wrote:
On 2021-09-20 11:14, jsmeix wrote:
I know, I know, but my mail was --------------------------------------------------- because what I actually wanted to do is to "just try out something on Tumbleweed" but that error exit interrupted my ongoing work so I did not do a major mental task switch to dig out the error message and YaST logs. ---------------------------------------------------
Just read what I wrote ;-)
If this is already a "major mental task", then just forget it and don't complain; it can't mean much to you. We don't optimize for this case.
Why don't you read what I actually wrote? I did not write it is a "major mental task". I wrote it is "a major mental task switch". Perhaps you need to learn something about UX? In this case you may read about "focus of mind". Technically it is OK in case of fatal errors. But UX is poor in particular for normal end-users in contrast to experts like admins who know things like working in text-only mode, switch consoles, call commands, and so on. But I see this issue will not be considered so I just forget it because you are right: To me personally it means nothing. I can help myself. Goodbye Johannes Meixner -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 - 90409 Nuernberg - Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nuernberg) GF: Felix Imendoerffer
While I love it that people are thinking about user experience, I am simply amazed at how many hidden experts we have at this company 😝 LOL Jokes aside, this is not a supported use-case. I could offer insight about “Normal” users just wanting things to work and how they don’t care or understand why they fail. Come explain to my wife this whole concept and watch her roll her eyes 😝 The best answer is “no, we don’t support that” and to suggest reaching out to a PM to share your ideas with them. [cidimage002.png@01D6EE96.471C2420] Kenneth Wimer Head of UX/UI On 21.09.21, 13:00, "jsmeix" <jsmeix@suse.de<mailto:jsmeix@suse.de>> wrote: Hello, On 2021-09-21 10:37, shundhammer wrote: On 2021-09-20 11:14, jsmeix wrote: I know, I know, but my mail was --------------------------------------------------- because what I actually wanted to do is to "just try out something on Tumbleweed" but that error exit interrupted my ongoing work so I did not do a major mental task switch to dig out the error message and YaST logs. --------------------------------------------------- Just read what I wrote ;-) If this is already a "major mental task", then just forget it and don't complain; it can't mean much to you. We don't optimize for this case. Why don't you read what I actually wrote? I did not write it is a "major mental task". I wrote it is "a major mental task switch". Perhaps you need to learn something about UX? In this case you may read about "focus of mind". Technically it is OK in case of fatal errors. But UX is poor in particular for normal end-users in contrast to experts like admins who know things like working in text-only mode, switch consoles, call commands, and so on. But I see this issue will not be considered so I just forget it because you are right: To me personally it means nothing. I can help myself. Goodbye Johannes Meixner -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 - 90409 Nuernberg - Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nuernberg) GF: Felix Imendoerffer
participants (5)
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Felix Miata -
jsmeix -
Kenneth Wimer -
Ladislav Slezak -
shundhammer