[yast-devel] Wizard dialogs without help?
Hello, for HackWeek I am working on an experimental YaST module, see http://idea.opensuse.org/content/ideas/usable-printer-setup-tool Currently I use for the dialogs something like -------------------------------------------------------------- Wizard::SetContentsButtons ( caption, contents, HELPS["basic_add_dialog"]:"", Label::BackButton(), Label::NextButton() ); -------------------------------------------------------------- Is it possible to get Wizard dialogs without help sub-window? I.e. have full-screen contents? Reason 1: My superb new innovative dialogs (TM) are fully self-explanatory so that there is no need for any help text at all. Reason 2: I read in books from usability experts that a UI is very likely bad designed when explanation texts (aka. help texts) are needed. Reason 3: My superb new innovative dialogs (TM) are perfectly designed ;-) Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On 28/06/07, Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.de> wrote:
Is it possible to get Wizard dialogs without help sub-window? I.e. have full-screen contents?
It is possible to replace the help text with workflow steps instead (such as during installation) with `opt(`stepsEnabled) . I'm not sure whether it's possible to turn both off, I can't see a way and I don't recall seeing any examples without either the workflow or the help text. _ Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Dňa Št 28. Jún 2007 09:56 Johannes Meixner napísal:
Hello,
for HackWeek I am working on an experimental YaST module, see http://idea.opensuse.org/content/ideas/usable-printer-setup-tool
Currently I use for the dialogs something like -------------------------------------------------------------- Wizard::SetContentsButtons ( caption, contents, HELPS["basic_add_dialog"]:"", Label::BackButton(), Label::NextButton() ); --------------------------------------------------------------
Is it possible to get Wizard dialogs without help sub-window? I.e. have full-screen contents?
I think running yast with --debug-embedding as a server parameter (e.g. 'y2base your.ycp qt --debug-embedding') should hide help. Stano
Reason 1: My superb new innovative dialogs (TM) are fully self-explanatory so that there is no need for any help text at all.
Reason 2: I read in books from usability experts that a UI is very likely bad designed when explanation texts (aka. help texts) are needed.
Reason 3: My superb new innovative dialogs (TM) are perfectly designed ;-)
Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 28 June 2007 11:44, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
I think running yast with --debug-embedding as a server parameter (e.g. 'y2base your.ycp qt --debug-embedding') should hide help.
This is going away soon (if it still works at all). That kind of embedding is no longer really supported, and it was always buggy anyway (keyboard focus problems etc.). CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Dňa Št 28. Jún 2007 11:51 Stefan Hundhammer napísal:
On Thursday 28 June 2007 11:44, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
I think running yast with --debug-embedding as a server parameter (e.g. 'y2base your.ycp qt --debug-embedding') should hide help.
This is going away soon (if it still works at all). That kind of embedding is no longer really supported, and it was always buggy anyway (keyboard focus problems etc.).
Sure, but at least it can give the sense how it would look like ;-) Even without help, the window will look strange due to size fitting the help. I've just came accross that option recently ( = 2 days ago). Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 28 June 2007 09:56, Johannes Meixner wrote:
Is it possible to get Wizard dialogs without help sub-window? I.e. have full-screen contents?
No. And that's intentional.
Reason 1: My superb new innovative dialogs (TM) are fully self-explanatory so that there is no need for any help text at all.
ROTFL... ;-) No, seriously, I'd still have to see the first configuration dialog that is self-explanatory to EVERY user.
Reason 2: I read in books from usability experts that a UI is very likely bad designed when explanation texts (aka. help texts) are needed.
That's nonsense, plain and simple. If you don't have any clue what that "NIS" thiny is that you could configure here, how do you find out? At the very least, a configuration dialog is to explain WHAT you can configure there and WHY a user would want to do that. It doesn't help when a configuration dialog tells you "Here you can configure CoolThingy" if you don't know what that "CoolThingy" is or why you would want to use it in the first place, what you can do with it, or if it fits your needs. A configuration dialog needs a help text. Always.
Reason 3: My superb new innovative dialogs (TM) are perfectly designed ;-)
...even if they were, can you expect every user to know what it is all about? CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Hello, to have the CC'ed better informed: I am talking about an experimental HackWeek YaST printer module: http://idea.opensuse.org/content/ideas/usable-printer-setup-tool I am not talking about any YaST module for openSUSE 10.3. On Jun 28 11:49 Stefan Hundhammer wrote (shortened):
On Thursday 28 June 2007 09:56, Johannes Meixner wrote:
Is it possible to get Wizard dialogs without help sub-window? I.e. have full-screen contents?
No. And that's intentional. ... ROTFL... ;-) ... At the very least, a configuration dialog is to explain WHAT you can configure there and WHY a user would want to do that.
ROTFL too ;-) This means that we must describe in a printer configuration dialog WHAT can be configured - what a surprise: "Printers can be configured in a printer configuration dialog!" and WHY a user would want to do that - what a surprise: "Users want to configure printers so that they can print!"
A configuration dialog needs a help text. Always.
Obviously really always in any case... Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
This means that we must describe in a printer configuration dialog WHAT can be configured - what a surprise: "Printers can be configured in a printer configuration dialog!" and WHY a user would want to do that - what a surprise: "Users want to configure printers so that they can print!"
Oh, so with your new experimental tool, I can configure any printer in the universe? While experimenting, it is obviously not necessary to implement help. But if you want to include it in the product, help will be necessary. Might as well make the UI so it works with help. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Jun 28 13:23 Rebecca Walter wrote (shortened):
Oh, so with your new experimental tool, I can configure any printer in the universe?
plonk Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> writes:
On Thursday 28 June 2007 09:56, Johannes Meixner wrote:
Is it possible to get Wizard dialogs without help sub-window? I.e. have full-screen contents?
Vote: +1
No. And that's intentional.
It hurts big times. In the very beginning, when YaST was nice and fancy and dialogs were small (in those times of the 3-click-installation, 6.4/7.x) the idea with a permanently visible help was innovative Today, it is just a PITA. The user who is able and willing to read a help text, will not mind clicking help. Forcing all users to see teh helps all the time, is not user-friendly.
A configuration dialog needs a help text. Always.
Yes, but this does not mean the help text must be visible all the time. And it needs a good and comprehensive help text. In the help, you must explain _all_ widgets, or tell the user where more information is to be found. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Dňa Št 28. Jún 2007 13:44 Karl Eichwalder napísal:
Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> writes:
On Thursday 28 June 2007 09:56, Johannes Meixner wrote:
Is it possible to get Wizard dialogs without help sub-window? I.e. have full-screen contents?
Vote: +1
No. And that's intentional.
It hurts big times. In the very beginning, when YaST was nice and fancy and dialogs were small (in those times of the 3-click-installation, 6.4/7.x) the idea with a permanently visible help was innovative
Today, it is just a PITA.
The user who is able and willing to read a help text, will not mind clicking help. Forcing all users to see teh helps all the time, is not user-friendly.
A configuration dialog needs a help text. Always.
Yes, but this does not mean the help text must be visible all the time. And it needs a good and comprehensive help text. In the help, you must explain _all_ widgets, or tell the user where more information is to be found.
OK, it's hackweek, right? http://idea.opensuse.org/content/ideas/tooltips-for-yast-dialogs Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Stanislav Visnovsky <visnov@suse.cz> writes:
OK, it's hackweek, right?
http://idea.opensuse.org/content/ideas/tooltips-for-yast-dialogs
Tooltips? A can of worms ;) Might be an option nevertheless. But even with nicely written tooltip texts, a help button for background information would still be needed (IMO). -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Stanislav Visnovsky <visnov@suse.cz> writes:
OK, it's hackweek, right?
http://idea.opensuse.org/content/ideas/tooltips-for-yast-dialogs
Tooltips? A can of worms ;) Might be an option nevertheless. But even with nicely written tooltip texts, a help button for background information would still be needed (IMO).
What about linking to the background information existing in the openSUSE wiki? -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schmidkunz <mschmidkunz@suse.de> writes:
What about linking to the background information existing in the openSUSE wiki?
Would be fine with me, byut that's probably not an option for a business product. Not talking about the problem about internet access at any time... But our main concern was to get rid of the help pane and replace it-- whenever needed--with a help button. I've the feeling the feature presented by Katarina is the way to go. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 28 June 2007 13:44, Karl Eichwalder wrote: [Wizard help - yes or no] We had this discussion several times in the past. So far, the pros outweighed the cons each time, so it was decided that we do want that help panel. But one way or the other, one major purpose of a widget like that wizard is to enforce consistency and a uniform look. What we really don't want is every module to look radically different. Consistency is important for usability. Should we decide that we don't want that help panel any more, we will remove it EVERYWHERE and not just in a couple of places. BTW reviewers and journalists tend to like that help panel; it's often explicitly mentioned and praised.
A configuration dialog needs a help text. Always.
Yes, but this does not mean the help text must be visible all the time. And it needs a good and comprehensive help text.
Agreed so far.
In the help, you must explain _all_ widgets, or tell the user where more information is to be found.
Here I strongly disagree. There is no need to explain every single widget. This is tedious to read, and important information easily gets lost on the way. More often than not it's a lot more important to give the user hints and tips or background information. This is where we have room for improvement at many places. For example, I feel a strong desire to strangle somebody when I have to read a help text like "With the [Abort] button you can abort this configuration". That's utterly useless. OTOH I feel just the same desire to strangle somebody when I have to read "Here you can configure XYZ" (and nothing else) in a module that has a headline "XYZ Configuration". Hint: Click through the YaST2 control center and count how many times you can read that kind of thing and no REAL help text. What we need is a short introduction explaining what that "XYZ" is, what it does for the user, in which cases it makes sense to configure that at all (or, sometimes equally important, in which cases it does not make any sense), and sometimes how to obtain the information that is requested (e.g., Internet provider data) or to suggest useful values (if there is no simple predefined setup that does that anyway) or even when to leave the defaults alone. I really don't think we are so short of screen space that we must get rid of that help panel. But some of those help texts certainly could use a little (or not so little) improvement. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Is it possible to get Wizard dialogs without help sub-window? I.e. have full-screen contents?
Not taking into account the discussion whether we really need help texts visible at all times, I see two possible solutions of having Wizard dialog without help sub-window: 1. I've seen over Miso's shoulder yast2-gtk's way of coping with help text - a button named 'Help' that opens a popup with help text (RIcardo, correct me if I'm wrong :-) ) 2. Adding `Splitter widget to our UI's as suggested by Lukas here: http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2007-06/msg00060.html By dragging a vertical splitter between main dialog and help sub-window as much to the left as possible, user would be able to 'hide' help text pane. (if I did not express myself clearly enough, you can try that e.g. with KMail or Thunderbird - just drag the splitter between left folder list pane and right message list + message body pane to the left. This way you can make folder list invisible) B. -- \\\\\ Katarina Machalkova \\\\\\\__o YaST developer __\\\\\\\'/_ & hedgehog painter
Hello, On Jun 28 14:59 Katarina Machalkova wrote (shortened):
Not taking into account the discussion whether we really need help texts visible at all times, I see two possible solutions of having Wizard dialog without help sub-window:
1. I've seen over Miso's shoulder yast2-gtk's way of coping with help text - a button named 'Help' that opens a popup with help text (RIcardo, correct me if I'm wrong :-) )
I would appreciate it. Screen space is often very limited and the permanent help uses screen space which I would like to have for the content. On the other hand the space for the permanent help is narrow so that the text (in particular a URL or whatever longer item) is often not convenient to read. A wide help popup with usual line lenght would be more convenient. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Screen space is often very limited and the permanent help uses screen space which I would like to have for the content.
This is part of why it is a good idea to block part of the screen from you. If you try cramming that much stuff into the screen, you're going to lose the user no matter how much help you try to write. IMO, there is no way you can _NEED_ all the space and have the perfect UI that needs no help that you claimed from the start that you have. There are two aspects in this discussion. Is the issue removing help completely or making help not visible by default? If the goal is the latter, what is the point? If the point is to free up space so you can cram more options into the UI, you would be better off focusing on other ways to design your UI instead of worrying about redesigning the wizard so help isn't shown in a pane. If there is a different point, you should bring it up and open a sensible and intelligent discussion of them. We're not going to believe that help is not required at all. It has to be accessible and it has to be easily accessible. It ought to provide useful background information and give the user an idea of the meanings and consequences of the different choices. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 28 June 2007 15:23, Johannes Meixner wrote:
Screen space is often very limited and the permanent help uses screen space which I would like to have for the content.
If you find that help panel limiting for whatever your dialog should contain, it will very likely not fit in an NCurses dialog. And then there is the aspect of overloading the dialog and thus overwhelming the user. There are some few select places where we make exceptions from the rule. The package selection is such a place. But this is explicitly defined as an expert tool, and there is a separate NCurses implementation that doesn't have to cope with the problems that would arise if we tried to press so many widgets in an NCurses dialog. In general configuration dialogs, this is not the case. This is why we have the wizard that provides a consistent, uniform look. And that look includes a help panel. I'd like to invite all of you who feel the need to discuss whether or not we want the help panel in the next rounds of usability discussions (if you look up the meeting minutes of those previous rounds, you will find the topic dicussed in great detail). But frankly, discussing this kind of thing is high on the top of my list of things I really don't want to do during this Hack Week.
On the other hand the space for the permanent help is narrow so that the text (in particular a URL or whatever longer item) is often not convenient to read.
How many URLs do we usually have in help texts? How many other longer items? Is this a realistic aspect?
A wide help popup with usual line lenght would be more convenient.
And it would always be in the way during installation. You could either read the help text or see what the help text describes, but never both. Been there. Discussed that. Dozens of times. Always came to the same conclusion, albeit each time with (lots of) different people. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Qui, 2007-06-28 às 14:59 +0200, Katarina Machalkova escreveu:
Is it possible to get Wizard dialogs without help sub-window? I.e. have full-screen contents?
Not taking into account the discussion whether we really need help texts visible at all times, I see two possible solutions of having Wizard dialog without help sub-window:
1. I've seen over Miso's shoulder yast2-gtk's way of coping with help text - a button named 'Help' that opens a popup with help text (RIcardo, correct me if I'm wrong :-) )
That's right. The original reason why we did that way was because of feedback from a blind user using the ATK-enabled tools. But I think this would be the right approach for other interfaces to take too, because this would let us provide a richer help API. Most programs that Suse ships have some very decent documentation (from calculators to web browsers), why is it that the setup tools don't even have a trouble shooting section? Cheers, Ricardo
2. Adding `Splitter widget to our UI's as suggested by Lukas here: http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2007-06/msg00060.html
By dragging a vertical splitter between main dialog and help sub-window as much to the left as possible, user would be able to 'hide' help text pane.
(if I did not express myself clearly enough, you can try that e.g. with KMail or Thunderbird - just drag the splitter between left folder list pane and right message list + message body pane to the left. This way you can make folder list invisible)
B.
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On Thursday 28 June 2007 19:22, Ricardo Cruz wrote:
Most programs that Suse ships have some very decent documentation (from calculators to web browsers),
...where more often than not, all you get is a copied help template (sometimes even plain wrong text, not just empty) or something like "this help section needs to be written". SCNR
why is it that the setup tools don't even have a trouble shooting section?
Because somebody would have to maintain all those texts? And translate them? And they'd have to fit into the RAM disk during installation? CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Sex, 2007-06-29 às 11:33 +0200, Stefan Hundhammer escreveu:
On Thursday 28 June 2007 19:22, Ricardo Cruz wrote:
Most programs that Suse ships have some very decent documentation (from calculators to web browsers),
...where more often than not, all you get is a copied help template (sometimes even plain wrong text, not just empty) or something like "this help section needs to be written".
SCNR
why is it that the setup tools don't even have a trouble shooting section?
Because somebody would have to maintain all those texts?
Most of them already exist: /usr/share/doc/manual/opensuse-manual_en/manual They just need to be transformed to a more appropriate markup language, so we can offer them online with a nice browser. (I'd suggest to just use KHelpCenter or Yelp for X11, and come up with our own browser for ncurses.)
And translate them?
The reason why the current ones are (close to be) fully translated to a lot of languages is because they are small, useless texts. I suspect the one I pointed out is already translated to German and some other languages; Suse was at a point shipped to Portugal with the main book translated to Brazilian Portuguese (what was really lame is that the box itself also was translated that way, which had small texts like "Complete Linux", so people wouldn't realize that they weren't typos -- and nobody will trust software with typos on the cover; retailers had a hard time selling the boxes).
And they'd have to fit into the RAM disk during installation?
Only when loaded... It may require some more RAM since the interface would be more rich, we would need to load the index and each page would be a little bigger than the current help. Doesn't seem significant though. As I have putted before, the current help text serves different purposes: * busy messages -- "Initializing User Management\Please wait..." * interface usage -- "To shift to the group dialog, select Groups. To create a new user, click Add." * system information -- "Each user is known to the system by a unique number, the user ID." * introduction -- "Use this dialog to get information about existing users and add or modify users." All quotes are from users.ycp. Dialogs should be used for busy messages. Interface descriptions seem pretty useless to me; if there is some that is helpful, it probably means the interface should be re-written. In any case, tool tips would be more appropriate. System, more advanced stuff, should be in a more rich manual; otherwise you can't expand it enough to make it useful anyway. The introduction line should be made a small subtitle under the header. (KControl has a little help button next to the header for some introduction text; you could do that for yast-qt.) Cheers, Ricardo
CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany
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participants (9)
-
Benji Weber -
Johannes Meixner -
Karl Eichwalder -
Katarina Machalkova -
Martin Schmidkunz -
Rebecca Walter -
Ricardo Cruz -
Stanislav Visnovsky -
Stefan Hundhammer