How can I regain the authority which I seem to have lost, to update and correct the page that I created in the first place? en.opensuse.org/LXC I have made some fixups lately and the thing just says the changes are not published. So, meanwhile I can't refer to this as a reference to anyone because it has errors and out of date info which I've fixed but which no one can see. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 15 November 2010 20:49:25 Brian K. White wrote:
Fixed, ie. approved. You can use any communication channel to ask in order to speed up approval. As you can see opensuse-wiki emails might be the fastest way to get attention of wiki people. Forums are also possible, I check them almost daily, which is not that fast. IRC #opensuse-wiki can be also good, but while my nick (simon123) hangs there few hours a day, that doesn't mean that I'm behind computer all the time. If you have time to check another articles then you can get editor/reviewer status. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 11/15/2010 11:57 PM, Rajko M. wrote:
I'm sorry for the way this will sound but this is not then a wiki. It's just a traditional web site that happens to use wiki software internally for it's cms. Those are garbage for quantity and quality of info compared to a wiki. This article and my reaction to this discovery are a perfect example why. It goes like this: The page was stale, meaning it was incorrect in the context of the current software it attempts to document. I fixed it. It remained stale for several days and would have remained stale for who knows how long if I hadn't decided to go out of my way to find some place to complain about it. And now, although the current fixes are finally published, there are still many things to add and improve, but I am most likely not going to bother doing them here. Readers of the article as it stands now will hit at least two little problems that I already know about. Oh well too bad the wiki revamp team annoyed the author into going elsewhere. So, as an author I am annoyed and will most likely not bother updating or improving that article any further, since I'd rather do it on howtoforge or some other actual wiki. And as a reader I am poorly served by stale articles and a reduced pool of authors. Way to go opensuse wiki revamp team, again. Or is it just that this article happens to be in the root namespace and maybe just that is no longer allowed to be scribbled on at random and everything else is still actually a wiki? That would be just tolerable. In that case I'll just copy it to some other namespace where the info can be kept current and someone who is paid by novell to curate their web site can replace the existing root namespace article with an overview that should require little upkeep, with links to the real tech info elsewhere. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 11/16/2010 03:54 PM, Brian K. White wrote:
That's the way it is, yes. The Main namespace (with no prefix) is meant for the presentation of the latest openSUSE Distribution, think of it as the product brochure, for people who are new to openSUSE and maybe to Linux in general. That's why we have a tighter quality control there. Looking at your page i would suggest you split it into two pages. en.opensuse.org/LXC that uses the application page template to tell users about it (brochure style) and en.opensuse.org/SDB:LXC_setup that has all the setup information.
Dude, I can understand that this is annoying for you but you need to work on your tone. People try to do their best, no need to get snappy... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Henne wrote what is in general advisable for any article. I'll expand a bit on that: Presentation should be in Main namespace. It should be written so that it changes very little with the time. Using links to software search to find software, upstream news, SDB articles should provide relatively static LXC presentation. Instructions how to install and configure depend on development and they can be in SDB namespace. On Tuesday 16 November 2010 08:54:24 Brian K. White wrote:
Or is it just that this article happens to be in the root namespace and maybe just that is no longer allowed to be scribbled on at random
Right.
and everything else is still actually a wiki?
Look Help:Namespace for explanation. In old wiki allowing to "scribble" at random did not work well. Updating articles did not work well too, although it wasn't restricted. Ditto, it is established quality control, using FlaggedRevs, a MediaWiki extension, that by now pretty efficiently demotivates scribbling, for instance by spammers to embed spam in existing pages. On the other hand, anyone can click on link "Draft page" (top right on pages that are not reviewed) and see new version of the article, so nothing is actually hidden, not even from casual visitors, but they at least know what is last version that was approved by someone. Workflow in a current wiki is not perfect either, but we working on it. You comment is valuable feedback, although I agree with Henne that tone is sharper then expected from someone that missed whole "Help" section in a wiki sidebar: * Wiki http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Wiki * Create a Page http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Concept * Change a Page http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Editing * Find a Page http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Search Your complaint is anyway valid, as you are not alone among single articles maintainers that don't read help files and are surprised when change is not instantly visible. Maybe links in sidebar are not visible enough, or clear enough that one has to read them to understand how new wiki works. Maybe we missed something in linked articles that should be added so that everyone reading them can easily see what to do after changes to articles that should be approved as fast as possible. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 11/16/2010 11:26 PM, Rajko M. wrote:
The proper fix is just as you and Henne said and I myself, split it up into a front page overview that cares more about polish and needs little maintenance over time, and from there link to tech details which always change and can't always be made simple or pretty. And go a step further as you said too, split the tech details if possible into, I don't know, install/setup vs ongoing admin & usage? OpenSUSE-version-specific? Package-version-specific? Usage hints and suggestions that are known working good ideas but are in no way a requirement or the only way to do things? This is just one page in zillions, I don't mean to make it sound remotely important. My complaint was more about the wiki than this page. That has been answered by explaining that it's only the root namespace which is perfectly reasonable. I just got tripped because I was working on this page before the change in rules so for me the wiki changed from underneath me, not "i failed to read the docs". Admittedly my fuse was short, but only because it was made short by previous wiki switchover problems. ie: dropping the pages attributions & history in the copy to the new site and breaking links to many many pages including this one. All those problems are in some form addressed or fixed by now. It's just that since I'm here during the switchover instead of coming here new today, I hit every problem and had no significant run of problem free good performance to date. Also I and others did not particularly agree with the need for the switchover. Voluntary growing pains are entirely different from involuntary ones. Time will have to pass with no further problems to outgrow the feeling that "this wiki sucks they keep breaking things" and chalk up the last few months to startup investment. I expect that will in fact happen, so I'm not pessimistic. It just hasn't happened yet and I see no reason to pretend everything is great before time has proven that it is. As for attitude: An optimistic attitude is obviously generally more productive. But optimism and granting benefit of the doubt are only logical as a default, not after having problems. Cynicism is not usually productive as a default state, but after problems have already been had, it's exactly the correct and logical response. Anything else isn't optimism it's stupidity. I acknowledge my tone was perhaps not quite necessary, but I do not quite exactly apologize for it yet. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 15 November 2010 20:49:25 Brian K. White wrote:
Fixed, ie. approved. You can use any communication channel to ask in order to speed up approval. As you can see opensuse-wiki emails might be the fastest way to get attention of wiki people. Forums are also possible, I check them almost daily, which is not that fast. IRC #opensuse-wiki can be also good, but while my nick (simon123) hangs there few hours a day, that doesn't mean that I'm behind computer all the time. If you have time to check another articles then you can get editor/reviewer status. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 11/15/2010 11:57 PM, Rajko M. wrote:
I'm sorry for the way this will sound but this is not then a wiki. It's just a traditional web site that happens to use wiki software internally for it's cms. Those are garbage for quantity and quality of info compared to a wiki. This article and my reaction to this discovery are a perfect example why. It goes like this: The page was stale, meaning it was incorrect in the context of the current software it attempts to document. I fixed it. It remained stale for several days and would have remained stale for who knows how long if I hadn't decided to go out of my way to find some place to complain about it. And now, although the current fixes are finally published, there are still many things to add and improve, but I am most likely not going to bother doing them here. Readers of the article as it stands now will hit at least two little problems that I already know about. Oh well too bad the wiki revamp team annoyed the author into going elsewhere. So, as an author I am annoyed and will most likely not bother updating or improving that article any further, since I'd rather do it on howtoforge or some other actual wiki. And as a reader I am poorly served by stale articles and a reduced pool of authors. Way to go opensuse wiki revamp team, again. Or is it just that this article happens to be in the root namespace and maybe just that is no longer allowed to be scribbled on at random and everything else is still actually a wiki? That would be just tolerable. In that case I'll just copy it to some other namespace where the info can be kept current and someone who is paid by novell to curate their web site can replace the existing root namespace article with an overview that should require little upkeep, with links to the real tech info elsewhere. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 11/16/2010 03:54 PM, Brian K. White wrote:
That's the way it is, yes. The Main namespace (with no prefix) is meant for the presentation of the latest openSUSE Distribution, think of it as the product brochure, for people who are new to openSUSE and maybe to Linux in general. That's why we have a tighter quality control there. Looking at your page i would suggest you split it into two pages. en.opensuse.org/LXC that uses the application page template to tell users about it (brochure style) and en.opensuse.org/SDB:LXC_setup that has all the setup information.
Dude, I can understand that this is annoying for you but you need to work on your tone. People try to do their best, no need to get snappy... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Henne wrote what is in general advisable for any article. I'll expand a bit on that: Presentation should be in Main namespace. It should be written so that it changes very little with the time. Using links to software search to find software, upstream news, SDB articles should provide relatively static LXC presentation. Instructions how to install and configure depend on development and they can be in SDB namespace. On Tuesday 16 November 2010 08:54:24 Brian K. White wrote:
Or is it just that this article happens to be in the root namespace and maybe just that is no longer allowed to be scribbled on at random
Right.
and everything else is still actually a wiki?
Look Help:Namespace for explanation. In old wiki allowing to "scribble" at random did not work well. Updating articles did not work well too, although it wasn't restricted. Ditto, it is established quality control, using FlaggedRevs, a MediaWiki extension, that by now pretty efficiently demotivates scribbling, for instance by spammers to embed spam in existing pages. On the other hand, anyone can click on link "Draft page" (top right on pages that are not reviewed) and see new version of the article, so nothing is actually hidden, not even from casual visitors, but they at least know what is last version that was approved by someone. Workflow in a current wiki is not perfect either, but we working on it. You comment is valuable feedback, although I agree with Henne that tone is sharper then expected from someone that missed whole "Help" section in a wiki sidebar: * Wiki http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Wiki * Create a Page http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Concept * Change a Page http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Editing * Find a Page http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Search Your complaint is anyway valid, as you are not alone among single articles maintainers that don't read help files and are surprised when change is not instantly visible. Maybe links in sidebar are not visible enough, or clear enough that one has to read them to understand how new wiki works. Maybe we missed something in linked articles that should be added so that everyone reading them can easily see what to do after changes to articles that should be approved as fast as possible. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
-
Brian K. White -
Henne Vogelsang -
Matt Hayes -
Rajko M.