On Monday 28 April 2008 01:36:12 pm Josh wrote:

I decided to start working on a script to scan the openSUSE wiki and print out the current category hierarchy. I had already notified Rajko of this via his talk page saying that I would probably not be able to work out the bugs for another 2 weeks. It turns out I am ahead of schedule!

I have posted the output on my user page, http://en.opensuse.org/User:Last2kn0. I am considering putting this output side by side with the proposed categories in the openSUSE:Category_Hierarchy page. If someone would like me to post the script, I can also do that.

This should help us keep an eye on how we are transforming what we currently have into what we proposed!

I would like to see the script. You can send it direct to my email address. There is new package selection for YaST: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Rpmgroups-after.png and the old one: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Rpmgroups-before.png Having software categories the same way as new rpmgroups would be helpful for those that look for more information. I'm afraid that I haven't found time to write comments on current category hierarchy in http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Popular_Topics . That is a must to clarify our ideas where articles belong and to ask for feedback on opensuse mail list. Now even I'm confused. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

I guess this is the answer on this: "You:

Your response create a portal that doesn't clean up or restructure the wiki that is just a band aid.

Me: The wiki is place where anybody logged in can add article and improve or ruin any structure, and both of that happens all the time. It is not web page where content is filtered before publishing. The index of articles that one finds useful is the only way to make wiki useful. If you don't believe check Wikipedia." On Monday 16 June 2008 05:59:01 am FMonkey wrote:

Greetings list

@Raiko_M I'm not continuing it in the forum firstly that is the wrong place.

Particular thread was wrong palce, but General forum would be fine.

Next you're missing it and taking it personally which is never my intention.

That is your interpretation. I just discuss.

Surely you don't expect me to think only a few can post and ruin the structure?

Yes I do. Wiki is such medium. Try to straighten something out and you will see how much more effort is needed for that than to mess things up. You have to fix someone's edit, leave message to author that will boost desire to contribute, not repel new arrival and everyone that reads your comment. It is much more work than to create pointless article trying to learn how wiki works.

You seem to be defending the lack of structure yet only recently in this thread you have been discussing, categories for the nth time.

Creating structured content is possible in controlled environment where chief editor gives green light when everything is in the way he likes. He controls structure prior to publishing. On the wiki type web page that is quite some work to keep everything right. Structure, layout, content is result of collaborative work of many people with different skills, ideas, intentions and influence. I can elaborate on each of factors, but it really doesn't belong here.

That is the problem the nth time someone needs to be bold, yes I do think SDB's are causing more confusion.

Sincerely, I don't call being bold, just to tell opinion, but to push idea until it is accepted. I have the same opinion on SDB, but tell that to guys that maintained SDB for years and made good effort to move all to wiki and make available to everybody. Last time the only discussion about SDB was how to differentiate it from HOWTOs. The difference is blade thin. One needs flow diagram to get where to write and that splits contributors between SDB prefixed articles and those in main name space.

Next as you can see you have people who will help they also said they struggle with the structure.

Where? In the new forums is the first time I have seen organized effort and I can't see struggle. Many articles are already transferred.

Now as I pointed out the comment on the front page stands so true.

Comment came shortly after discussions, design and testing was done, so no one that actually can change links wanted to do anything. Comment will stay there as reminder for the next round.

So having followed the support page I get here http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate OK not really helping.

The word help can be everywhere, but it will not help if one doesn't read instructions. The Communicate page gives them.

Now personally if I accept a wiki is a wiki that includes all fine then, but then that leaves the question how do others manage it then? So lets use Ubu for an example, by admiring things done we can learn and improve. So as Ubu and Suse start with a similar front page.

http://www.ubuntu.com/ http://www.opensuse.org/ now we already are making the presumption that a new user knows the wiki is the place to go.

You assume, that someone, that came first time on http://www.opensuse.org/ , will give more importance to small script in the second row telling "Wiki" than to bold "Discover it" in the first.

Left hand side Ubu support that looks like it.. Top paragraph sends me here https://help.ubuntu.com/.

Well. Not. It will bring you to http://www.ubuntu.com/support

Now on Suse I can barely find the words help/support and this is also the front page for the wiki, so lets say if we do what gentoo has and just a wiki. http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page perfect looks like howto's would be a good place to start.

I used "help" and I can see page about wiki with comment that it has to be rewritten.

Brilliant a nice clear TOC of howto's that will assist in keeping structure and help users find stuff.

Hmm. Brilliant. It appears very similar to ours. Should I consider that as compliment ;-) The only difference, our is 2 clicks away from front page. We have a problem that we have much more different types of documentation, and we want to tell that to users that may need some other stuff, not only HOWTOs.

Now say you even end up with the main Ubu wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ first paragraph OK so I'm in the wrong place, first paragraph https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ brilliant a nice TOC no problems finding something.

Hmm, again. You seems to read obsolete information. Wiki is nowhere to find on main Ubuntu page. Without your link I would never found it.

So deciding support wasn't the page I want, http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation as a new user I just want assistance in getting the PC to perform similar functionality to what it did before. http://en.opensuse.org/HOWTOs does this really assist is there structure here then? Where is a nice clear TOC like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ or http://gentoo-wiki.com/Index:HOWTO ? and you wonder why it is getting fragmented, IMO as an outsider looking in I'm not surprised, more surprised that others think that the lack of structure is having an affect.

I'm wondering when it was last time you was around; 18 months ago?

More annoying is I have made these comments before and going on the nth time so has others. What Josh suggested is perfect a nice clear TOC that will assist keeping the structure and help users find bits they want. http://en.opensuse.org/User:Last2kn0 the annoying bit is in less detail I mentioned some of this last year. Next should you take something like the above it needs to be in a CLEAR AND EASY PLACE to find, people need to start thinking like new users.

What you don't know is how much work is to bring that nice TOC to be operational, and that is where everything stops. We have some 2500 titles, somewhat lesser articles, and that needs tens of editors to bring in order.

As someone worded it to me they would rather keep there stuff out of the wiki as there not sure whether it would get lost, they couldn't be bothered fighting the turf barriers and forest of agendas. Whilst people think like this contributions will continue in the manner they have.

I can't be bothered with lost contributors that are afraid that they will not get frontpage presence. I can't give them that, they have to fight for that, but not with me. I'm just another editor, not even sysop.

Someone needs to stand up and be counted by being bold and create a front page that incorporates and assists the new user, along the way this will have a cleaner and clearer structure that will assist contributers in placing articles in the correct place.

Someone. Why not you? Propose structure that will stand discussion and you will be everyone's hero. I'm not teasing you. Pull sleeves up, help Josh, and I'm sure that on next frontpage redesign good index will be linked from welcome page. Portal was, but who needs poorly maintained index.

If you wish to persist in having all the superfluous stuff in the wiki for developers like all the libzypp rubbish then you need to take a leaf out of Ubu and separate the help Stuff, but still with out a decent TOC that is quickly found the structure will continue being a mess.

You really show lack of understanding what is wiki. Article that doesn't show in search and it is not listed in some index does not exist for wiki users. There can be millions of them that only few users can find them.

Just someone trying to help the community.

It would be even more helpful if you can give us a hand. So, what you say? -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

I guess this is the answer on this: "You:

...

Your response create a portal that doesn't clean up or restructure the wiki that is just a band aid.

Me: The wiki is place where anybody logged in can add article and improve or ruin any structure, and both of that happens all the time. It is not web page where content is filtered before publishing. The index of articles that one finds useful is the only way to make wiki useful. If you don't believe check Wikipedia."

On Monday 16 June 2008 05:59:01 am FMonkey wrote:

...

Greetings list

@Raiko_M I'm not continuing it in the forum firstly that is the wrong place.

Particular thread was wrong palce, but General forum would be fine.

...

Next you're missing it and taking it personally which is never my intention.

That is your interpretation. I just discuss.

...

Surely you don't expect me to think only a few can post and ruin the structure?

Yes I do. Wiki is such medium. Try to straighten something out and you will see how much more effort is needed for that than to mess things up. You have to fix someone's edit, leave message to author that will boost desire to contribute, not repel new arrival and everyone that reads your comment. It is much more work than to create pointless article trying to learn how wiki works.

...

You seem to be defending the lack of structure yet only recently in this thread you have been discussing, categories for the nth time.

Creating structured content is possible in controlled environment where chief editor gives green light when everything is in the way he likes. He controls structure prior to publishing.

On the wiki type web page that is quite some work to keep everything right. Structure, layout, content is result of collaborative work of many people with different skills, ideas, intentions and influence. I can elaborate on each of factors, but it really doesn't belong here.

...

That is the problem the nth time someone needs to be bold, yes I do think SDB's are causing more confusion.

Sincerely, I don't call being bold, just to tell opinion, but to push idea until it is accepted.

I have the same opinion on SDB, but tell that to guys that maintained SDB for years and made good effort to move all to wiki and make available to everybody.

Last time the only discussion about SDB was how to differentiate it from HOWTOs. The difference is blade thin. One needs flow diagram to get where to write and that splits contributors between SDB prefixed articles and those in main name space.

...

Next as you can see you have people who will help they also said they struggle with the structure.

Where? In the new forums is the first time I have seen organized effort and I can't see struggle. Many articles are already transferred.

...

Now as I pointed out the comment on the front page stands so true.

Comment came shortly after discussions, design and testing was done, so no one that actually can change links wanted to do anything. Comment will stay there as reminder for the next round.

...

So having followed the support page I get here http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate OK not really helping.

The word help can be everywhere, but it will not help if one doesn't read instructions. The Communicate page gives them.

...

Now personally if I accept a wiki is a wiki that includes all fine then, but then that leaves the question how do others manage it then? So lets use Ubu for an example, by admiring things done we can learn and improve. So as Ubu and Suse start with a similar front page.

http://www.ubuntu.com/ http://www.opensuse.org/ now we already are making the presumption that a new user knows the wiki is the place to go.

You assume, that someone, that came first time on http://www.opensuse.org/ , will give more importance to small script in the second row telling "Wiki" than to bold "Discover it" in the first.

...

Left hand side Ubu support that looks like it.. Top paragraph sends me here https://help.ubuntu.com/.

Well. Not. It will bring you to http://www.ubuntu.com/support

...

Now on Suse I can barely find the words help/support and this is also the front page for the wiki, so lets say if we do what gentoo has and just a wiki. http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page perfect looks like howto's would be a good place to start.

I used "help" and I can see page about wiki with comment that it has to be rewritten.

...

Brilliant a nice clear TOC of howto's that will assist in keeping structure and help users find stuff.

Hmm. Brilliant. It appears very similar to ours. Should I consider that as compliment ;-) The only difference, our is 2 clicks away from front page. We have a problem that we have much more different types of documentation, and we want to tell that to users that may need some other stuff, not only HOWTOs.

...

Now say you even end up with the main Ubu wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ first paragraph OK so I'm in the wrong place, first paragraph https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ brilliant a nice TOC no problems finding something.

Hmm, again. You seems to read obsolete information. Wiki is nowhere to find on main Ubuntu page. Without your link I would never found it.

...

So deciding support wasn't the page I want, http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation as a new user I just want assistance in getting the PC to perform similar functionality to what it did before. http://en.opensuse.org/HOWTOs does this really assist is there structure here then? Where is a nice clear TOC like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ or http://gentoo-wiki.com/Index:HOWTO ? and you wonder why it is getting fragmented, IMO as an outsider looking in I'm not surprised, more surprised that others think that the lack of structure is having an affect.

I'm wondering when it was last time you was around; 18 months ago?

...

More annoying is I have made these comments before and going on the nth time so has others. What Josh suggested is perfect a nice clear TOC that will assist keeping the structure and help users find bits they want. http://en.opensuse.org/User:Last2kn0 the annoying bit is in less detail I mentioned some of this last year. Next should you take something like the above it needs to be in a CLEAR AND EASY PLACE to find, people need to start thinking like new users.

What you don't know is how much work is to bring that nice TOC to be operational, and that is where everything stops. We have some 2500 titles, somewhat lesser articles, and that needs tens of editors to bring in order.

...

As someone worded it to me they would rather keep there stuff out of the wiki as there not sure whether it would get lost, they couldn't be bothered fighting the turf barriers and forest of agendas. Whilst people think like this contributions will continue in the manner they have.

I can't be bothered with lost contributors that are afraid that they will not get frontpage presence. I can't give them that, they have to fight for that, but not with me. I'm just another editor, not even sysop.

...

Someone needs to stand up and be counted by being bold and create a front page that incorporates and assists the new user, along the way this will have a cleaner and clearer structure that will assist contributers in placing articles in the correct place.

Someone. Why not you? Propose structure that will stand discussion and you will be everyone's hero. I'm not teasing you. Pull sleeves up, help Josh, and I'm sure that on next frontpage redesign good index will be linked from welcome page. Portal was, but who needs poorly maintained index.

...

If you wish to persist in having all the superfluous stuff in the wiki for developers like all the libzypp rubbish then you need to take a leaf out of Ubu and separate the help Stuff, but still with out a decent TOC that is quickly found the structure will continue being a mess.

You really show lack of understanding what is wiki. Article that doesn't show in search and it is not listed in some index does not exist for wiki users. There can be millions of them that only few users can find them.

...

Just someone trying to help the community.

It would be even more helpful if you can give us a hand. So, what you say?

As I said in my original post and you clearly highlighted by defending your turf. I couldn't be bothered fighting the turf barriers and forest of agendas. Also my documentation skills suck whilst you spend more time defending the lack of structure I can't be bothered. Whilst you keep ignoring comments like this http://forums.opensuse.org/looking-something/386089-no-sounds-ppc-where-find... it will continue. Lets start a thread then, see what the users think then, ask them can they find the documentation they need? To twist the lack of structure into a plus is sadly mistaken, the sad thing is you seem to think the wiki is lacking content, I wonder how any one can make that assumption with the disorganisation that there is. Until people maintaining the wiki the ones who can get things deleted actually make an effort, as for search not finding them lmfao it barely finds anything. All in all good luck it'll be the same in another 18mths, you lot continue with your turf barriers and forest of agendas, and ignore the users. This wiki needs a couple of wiki warriors who aren't defending turf barriers, I'll continue using Gentoo's, arch, or Ubuntu's and referencing to it at least I know they have a couple of wiki warriors who realise what there users NEED. I can't be bothered fighting the turf barriers and forest of agendas, when you lot have cleared the forest of agendas and turf barriers, which I also saw in the forum management too, I'll help then. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org