[opensuse-wiki] openSUSE web site for low end network
If you follow the various openSUSE mailing lists, you may know I use to advocate we must take into account the so many low end harware users. This is not only for helping the poors, but also because I'm very confident than the coutries that have such problem today will be in the first place in the market in the very few years from now on. helping them is a good bet on the future. and it's cheap :-) I noticed that the openSUSE wiki is very hard to read with a 56k modem connection. (I know there are some of us that use it, congratulations :-). so it could be wise to have a helper for them in the form of a static web site. Of course we can't afford to make a static web site as dynamic as the openSUSE wiki, but before using too much time to work on this, is it possible (politically possible, accepted by Novell) to have a static copy of the wiki linked from the hub screen we just discuss? I think of a script generated web site from the actual wiki (probably only the english one, but who knows?) For example I have a wget generated copy of the french wiki, only 2Mb in size! this could be quite simple to do and appreciated by many users jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
jdd a écrit :
For example I have a wget generated copy of the french wiki, only 2Mb in size!
by the way, the first distribution testing for braille tablets could also have a version for visually disabled (w3m compliant), but there wget is not so good. I think they are in the mediawiki software scripts to do somethings approaching. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 12:36:10PM +0200, jdd wrote:
this could be quite simple to do and appreciated by many users
Till now you are the only user who is asking for this. 2MB for a website is a LOT more then I would want to download. What you are talking about is to have the content available offline. I believe we already had that discussion. If it is not dynamic and up to date like openSUSE is, I am against it. -- houghi Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
On 2006-08-03 13:58:05 +0200, houghi wrote:
If it is not dynamic and up to date like openSUSE is, I am against it.
omg houghi..... what an useless commment. darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 02:47:19PM +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
On 2006-08-03 13:58:05 +0200, houghi wrote:
If it is not dynamic and up to date like openSUSE is, I am against it.
omg houghi..... what an useless commment.
Why? -- houghi Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
On 2006-08-03 15:08:06 +0200, houghi wrote:
On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 02:47:19PM +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
On 2006-08-03 13:58:05 +0200, houghi wrote:
If it is not dynamic and up to date like openSUSE is, I am against it.
omg houghi..... what an useless commment.
Why?
how should we keep the copy of the wiki up2date without transfering new data? additionally we can only snapshot at certain points in time. as updating snapshots on each edit would kill the box. darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 03:14:31PM +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
On 2006-08-03 15:08:06 +0200, houghi wrote:
On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 02:47:19PM +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
On 2006-08-03 13:58:05 +0200, houghi wrote:
If it is not dynamic and up to date like openSUSE is, I am against it.
omg houghi..... what an useless commment.
Why?
how should we keep the copy of the wiki up2date without transfering new data? additionally we can only snapshot at certain points in time. as updating snapshots on each edit would kill the box.
This even makes it less clear why my comment would be useless. It looks as if you are also not in favour of it. -- houghi Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
houghi a écrit :
This even makes it less clear why my comment would be useless. It looks as if you are also not in favour of it.
probably he though the answer was so obvious that your comment was too much :-() I know php gives html so most wiki users read html pages directly from the cache, so this should be the same thing I asked for, but in a much better way. however I effectively tried to read the wiki from this 56k line and was unable to do so. I have yet to investigate where is the bottleneck. the html given by mediawiki is quite awfull, and page size (around 15-20 kbytes) are pretty large, but I'm unsure this is sufficient to give the bad result I had. may be my problem is completely unrelated to the wiki. more when I could test (for example look for javascript in the pages if any). thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 10:45:49PM +0200, jdd wrote:
however I effectively tried to read the wiki from this 56k line and was unable to do so. I have yet to investigate where is the bottleneck. the html given by mediawiki is quite awfull, and page size (around 15-20 kbytes) are pretty large, but I'm unsure this is sufficient to give the bad result I had.
My thought would be more that there was a connection problem. Modems retrain after some while and what they do is get connected at a lower speed. The fastest I was ever connected was 54K with a 56K modem. I coud keep that up for aboyt 5 minutes. After that the modem retrained and even though there still was a physical connection, data droped to 0. 52K was possible for a long time. When I moved, my maximum connection was 40K and on dry days 42K. This after some tweaking on my modem. I have seen modems go slow because of many several reasons. That said, if there would be a 'printable' css that would filter out the left and top column, en.opensuse.org would go from 18220 to 11530 bytes. Cleaning it up even more would also be possible. On a larger page (e.g. Making_a_DVD_from_CDs with 35k) the difference will be much less, unless you are willing to remove a LOT of layout. Now this all does not mean that there can not be any speed improvement: http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/ A nice page that shows how fast things download and also pinpoints the main problem to the css files that are way too large compared to the rest. -- This space left blank intentionaly --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
houghi a écrit :
Now this all does not mean that there can not be any speed improvement: http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/
thanks for this URL, very interesting for opensuse.org: Total HTTP Requests: 27 Total Size: 97912 bytes Object Size Totals Object type Size (bytes) HTML: 4868 HTML Images: 23690 CSS Images: 13031 Total Images: 36721 Javascript: 17449 CSS: 38874 but may be the analyse site use some trick to disable cache? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
On Friday 04 August 2006 00:54, houghi wrote: Hi,
Now this all does not mean that there can not be any speed improvement: http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/
A nice page that shows how fast things download and also pinpoints the main problem to the css files that are way too large compared to the rest.
this is due to the fact that we want to be compatbile to the MediaWiki styles. At the moment we are loading the original Monobook styles and overwrite parts of them afterwards with customized styles. In regards of performance this is probably the worst thing we could do, but this is the only way that allows us to - benefit from MediaWiki's adjustments for different browsers - and be able to update to new MediaWiki versions without having to rewrite major parts of the template and the css The only alternative would be to use custom styles and scripts only. Unfortunately I do not have enough time to do that (in one of my other lives I am a member of the documentation team that writes SUSE Linux manuals and 10.2 is already on the doorstep ;-)). -- Regards Frank Frank Sundermeyer, SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.novell.com/ "Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane" Dogbert --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 12:56:09PM +0200, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
this is due to the fact that we want to be compatbile to the MediaWiki styles. At the moment we are loading the original Monobook styles and overwrite parts of them afterwards with customized styles. In regards of performance this is probably the worst thing we could do, but this is the only way that allows us to
- benefit from MediaWiki's adjustments for different browsers - and be able to update to new MediaWiki versions without having to rewrite major parts of the template and the css
Would it not be possible to remove those things that you overwrite? Also the site gives some tips. Reduce spaces. You could also remove the comments and carrier returs and such. With the same output, you could still have smaller files.
The only alternative would be to use custom styles and scripts only. Unfortunately I do not have enough time to do that (in one of my other lives I am a member of the documentation team that writes SUSE Linux manuals and 10.2 is already on the doorstep ;-)).
Run the following from the bashprompt if you have the kernel sources for I in `find /usr/src/linux/ -name *.c`; \ do A=`grep -i -A 1 -B 1 fuck $I`;if [ "$A" != "" ]; \
I have the ideal solution for you to speed up the writing of the manuals: http://www.lipsum.com/ I am sure almost nobody will notice the difference. ;-) -- then printf "$I \n$A \n\n"; fi ;done|less --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
On Monday 07 August 2006 13:15, houghi wrote: Hi,
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 12:56:09PM +0200, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
this is due to the fact that we want to be compatbile to the MediaWiki styles. At the moment we are loading the original Monobook styles and overwrite parts of them afterwards with customized styles. In regards of performance this is probably the worst thing we could do, but this is the only way that allows us to
- benefit from MediaWiki's adjustments for different browsers - and be able to update to new MediaWiki versions without having to rewrite major parts of the template and the css
Would it not be possible to remove those things that you overwrite?
no - I would have to do this every time MediaWiki is updated.
Also the site gives some tips. Reduce spaces. You could also remove the comments and carrier returs and such.
... making it almost impossible to edit the file afterwards... ;) Anyway - I am not if the css files really affect performance significantly. After all they only get loaded _once_ and are served from the local browser cache afterwards. -- Regards Frank Frank Sundermeyer, SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.novell.com/ "Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane" Dogbert --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
[snip] 1. the wiki is doing on disk caching already and delivers that for anonymous user. 2. the content size would be the same you still need to download the whole site. 3. check the cache settings of your browser. darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
Marcus Rueckert a écrit :
[snip] 1. the wiki is doing on disk caching already and delivers that for anonymous user. 2. the content size would be the same you still need to download the whole site.
I don't say to make it available in zip form are there here 56k modem users that can confirm they can browse the wiki without problem. I have mine at hand only once a month :-) if there is no problem, forget my post, when I tried it I may have had an other problem :-(. thanks -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 03:02:28PM +0200, jdd wrote:
Marcus Rueckert a écrit :
[snip] 1. the wiki is doing on disk caching already and delivers that for anonymous user. 2. the content size would be the same you still need to download the whole site.
I don't say to make it available in zip form
Then where is the 2MB coming from?
are there here 56k modem users that can confirm they can browse the wiki without problem. I have mine at hand only once a month :-)
if there is no problem, forget my post, when I tried it I may have had an other problem :-(.
You said you had a solution, what is that solution? What I can imagine is a 'printable' version where you only have the center article, without the sidebar or top bar. Not sure if this is possible with css, like a printable version. -- houghi Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
houghi a écrit :
Then where is the 2MB coming from?
I used wget to have a local copy of the fr site (not to be done each day :-) and looked at properties in konqueror but I didn't do that on this purpose but used an old verison, may be a little bigger now. but with a 20kB medium size for a page, the html site is small btw the problem should be solved by the cache jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
-
Frank Sundermeyer -
houghi -
jdd -
Marcus Rueckert