[opensuse-wiki] New wiki host: Final preparations

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[opensuse-wiki] Minutes and AIs -...

Frank Sundermeyer

15 Dec 2009 15 Dec '09

13:03

Hi Team, before officially announcing the new wiki instance (wiki.opensuse.org) there are still a few things to do or to clarify. see http://wiki.opensuse.org/Special:Version for details PLEASE: Do not start adding content to wiki.o.o, yet. Let's wait until everything is in place (hopefully some time this week). However, you are welcome to test the new wiki - please delete articles once you do not need them. I will delete every remaining article before we officially start. Preferred place for testing should be your user page (I will not delete pages in the USER namespace). 1. Sysop: ---------- I think Javier Jonathan Rajko Remy Rupert Shayon Sascha Spyhawk (I do not know the real name ;-)) should have sysop rights in the new wiki. Agreed? Have I forgotten someone? Since you have to have been logged in once, before I can make you sysop, please log in at http://wiki.opensuse.org/ ASAP. Once you have done so, drop me a note including your wiki login name. In case of problems logging in, please delete all opensuse cookies. 2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named? 3. Namespaces: -------------- ATM we have the same namespaces as on en.o.o (SDB / SDB_Discussion, FAQ, howto). Let me know if you want to keep these and which ones I should add. 4. FlaggedRevs ------------------ Configuration: Rajko, any hints/input from your side is welcome. CSS: I will try to adapt the CSS to our skin. User Rights: Who should have which permissions in FlaggedRevs? Please see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:FlaggedRevs#User_rights 5. Lucene Search ---------------- This is the only requested extension that is currently not installed. Adding this would require a considerable change to the server configuration. We have tested the SphinxSearch extension (Sphinx is even faster than Lucene). The only difference I noticed was an increase in speed. The search interface remains the same, and the result list is sorted a bit differently than with the standard wiki search. Apart from that, no changes. Honestly I do not see any benefits using an external search engine rather than performance (and that AFAIK has never been a problem). Whatsmore, the internal wiki search has improved, too, since MediaWiki 1.5.8 6. Use of Semantic MediaWiki ---------------------------- Has anything been decided on this topic? 7. Everything I missed ---------------------- If there is any other thing you need (configuration option, skin, css) let me know. -- Regards Frank Frank Sundermeyer, Technical Writer, Documentation SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.opensuse.org/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane" Dogbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

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Rémy Marquis

15 Dec 15 Dec

13:29

Hi Frank,

...

1. Sysop: ---------- I think

Javier Jonathan Rajko Remy Rupert Shayon Sascha Spyhawk (I do not know the real name ;-))

should have sysop rights in the new wiki. Agreed? Have I forgotten someone?

Remy and Spyhawk are actually the same person :) "Spyhawk" is obviously my Wiki login.

...

2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

I guess "Welcome to openSUSE.org" is fine for the landing page (does anyone have a better idea?) For the right column, we need to check with the Booster Team members that work on the Umbrella project (I think the current content of the right column will be moved somewhere else). Regards, R. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Frank Sundermeyer

13:58

On Tuesday 15 December 2009 14:29:36 Rémy Marquis wrote: Hi,

...

Remy and Spyhawk are actually the same person :)

;-)

...

...
2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

I guess "Welcome to openSUSE.org" is fine for the landing page (does anyone have a better idea?) For the right column, we need to check with the Booster Team members that work on the Umbrella project (I think the current content of the right column will be moved somewhere else).

well, IMHO the new skin shouldn't be our concern right now (it won't have a right column AFAIK). Question is more how much space is needed for the new front page.. -- Regards Frank Frank Sundermeyer, Technical Writer, Documentation SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.opensuse.org/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane" Dogbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

16 Dec 16 Dec

04:36

On Tuesday 15 December 2009 07:03:29 Frank Sundermeyer wrote:

...

Hi Team,

before officially announcing the new wiki instance (wiki.opensuse.org) there are still a few things to do or to clarify.

see http://wiki.opensuse.org/Special:Version for details

PLEASE: Do not start adding content to wiki.o.o, yet. Let's wait until everything is in place (hopefully some time this week). However, you are welcome to test the new wiki - please delete articles once you do not need them. I will delete every remaining article before we officially start. Preferred place for testing should be your user page (I will not delete pages in the USER namespace).

1. Sysop: ---------- I think

Javier Jonathan Rajko Remy Rupert Shayon Sascha Spyhawk (I do not know the real name ;-))

should have sysop rights in the new wiki. Agreed? Have I forgotten someone?

Since you have to have been logged in once, before I can make you sysop, please log in at http://wiki.opensuse.org/ ASAP. Once you have done so, drop me a note including your wiki login name.

In case of problems logging in, please delete all opensuse cookies.

2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

We may use "Welcome to openSUSE wiki" as "Welcome to openSUSE.org" is a bit ambitious. Once when wiki was the center point of openSUSE.org current was OK, but now we should limit the scope of welcome message.

...

3. Namespaces: -------------- ATM we have the same namespaces as on en.o.o (SDB / SDB_Discussion, FAQ, howto). Let me know if you want to keep these and which ones I should add.

*** Talking about namespaces and categorization without discussing information architecture of the openSUSE project, is picking in the dark random pieces that can help information flow, but also can be minor, irrelevant, or directly counter productive. We can use experience of projects of similar size and diversity to name some pieces that they have and we are currently missing, or are mixed with other content. *** "howto" is actually "FAQ Talk" and I would return it to its original name as it acts like that. When one has article in current howto namespace the link above, where usually stands word "Article" in the Main namespace, tells "FAQ", so workaround is not really working as it should. I'm sure that whatever we/someone intended to do with Howto namespace is done without actually understanding purpose of namespaces in the Mediwiki, which is to allow search to be separated from other parts of the wiki, in other words to work faster, and to allow articles with a same name to be used for different purpose. So, in my humble opinion as Main namespace *is* collection of Howtos, with or without special name on it, making another one helps perpetuating confusion where to write, similar to one with SDB. See http://en.opensuse.org/SDB-Howto-FAQ for details. *** IMHO, SDB should be the place that store outdated articles that we don't want to remove. I'm sure that we want to allow users of outdated software access to such articles. The reason for this proposal is: 1) current status of SDB that is actually such storage with very few new articles that can be moved to Main namespace with lesser effort then cleaning up whole SDB from obsolete content and moving that content to some other storage. 2) it can be removed from default search, so that users don't see advices related to SUSE 9.1 and earlier. *** "Portal" is obvious one for miscellaneous portals. The purpose is that information in portal (article names) don't appear in the search as duplicate. *** "Development" could be one name space that is really needed. Developers need wiki for YaST, Packaging, Factory, Standards, Build Service, and what not, but that is stuff that is not for everyone, so removing it from default search can help wiki visitors to find articles that present first line help; something that is from help desks known as level 1 help, while developers can include that in their preference, use Portal:Development and find it easily. *** "Artwork" is not very developed, but such namespace can help to store references to images, marketing stuff and probably more. Kept off default search scope it will help not to present Printer-spool.ico as one of valid results to someone looking how to fix printer problem. Artwork contributor can include it in his preferences, or create entry page for browsing by artwork categories. *** "HCL" is the same thing as the other. User looking for hardware support will have entry page to browse HCL, or add it to search in his preferences, while the rest of the visitors will not see HCL articles in their search results. *** "Community" for social events. *** "News" for all types of news, and specially for Weekly News.

...

4. FlaggedRevs ------------------

Configuration: Rajko, any hints/input from your side is welcome.

We can go the same way as: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:FlaggedRevs_Extension show settings and decide which to change. We need due to ICS login: 'email' => false, # user must be emailconfirmed? 'uniqueIPAddress' => false, # If $wgPutIPinRC is true, users sharing IPs won't be promoted Although, it is questionable do we need autopromote functionality at all. So, far I can understand what I see on recent changes it is enabled by default in a new Mediawiki version. When we see the new wiki running we can discuss: wgFlaggedRevTabs = false; // add stable/draft revision tabs $wgFlaggedRevComments = true; // can users make comments that will show up below flagged revisions?

...

CSS: I will try to adapt the CSS to our skin.

The FlaggedRev tools and icons are currently not present, which I can see on my locally installed wiki as it uses the current openSUSE skin. The InputBox is fine as far as I checked it. The rest I had no time to check.

...

User Rights: Who should have which permissions in FlaggedRevs? Please see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:FlaggedRevs#User_rights

Maybe this is the answer (from Wikibooks settings). // So that administrators/bureaucrats have same permissions as editors by default $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['review'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autoreview'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autoconfirmed'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['patrolmarks'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autopatrolother'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['unreviewedpages'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['validate'] = true; or, like with autopromote, just manually give appropriate rights. The FlaggedRevs add groups Editor and Reviewer.

...

5. Lucene Search ---------------- This is the only requested extension that is currently not installed. Adding this would require a considerable change to the server configuration. We have tested the SphinxSearch extension (Sphinx is even faster than Lucene). The only difference I noticed was an increase in speed. The search interface remains the same, and the result list is sorted a bit differently than with the standard wiki search. Apart from that, no changes. Honestly I do not see any benefits using an external search engine rather than performance (and that AFAIK has never been a problem). Whatsmore, the internal wiki search has improved, too, since MediaWiki 1.5.8

Let we try without any external search engine, as there are other methods to improve search like namespace separation, taking care that articles are categorized, build category tree, add portals, and without using them there is no search engine, besides Google, that can help us.

...

6. Use of Semantic MediaWiki ---------------------------- Has anything been decided on this topic?

It is complex and we will have to read http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:User_manual and experiment with it to be able to give any comment.

...

7. Everything I missed ---------------------- If there is any other thing you need (configuration option, skin, css) let me know.

Solve cooperation of ICS login and user ban functionality. We have to be able to give feedback to ICS login management to ban and delete users IDs used to spam wiki, and possibly track back to original email address and sent complaint to ISP/mail provider. If not yet (judging by openSUSE namespace): http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgCapitalLinks and $wgCapitalLinkOverrides - Per namespace configuration for $wgCapitalLinks if more then tomorrow :) -- Regards Rajko, openSUSE Wiki Team: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team People of openSUSE: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Javier Llorente

09:12

On Wednesday 16 December 2009 05:36:15 Rajko M. wrote: [...]

...

...
2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

We may use "Welcome to openSUSE wiki" as "Welcome to openSUSE.org" is a bit ambitious. Once when wiki was the center point of openSUSE.org current was OK, but now we should limit the scope of welcome message.

I would name it "Welcome" instead of "Welcome to openSUSE wiki" (it's a bit long in my opinion). [...]

...

...
4. FlaggedRevs ------------------

Configuration: Rajko, any hints/input from your side is welcome.

We can go the same way as: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:FlaggedRevs_Extension show settings and decide which to change.

We need due to ICS login: 'email' => false, # user must be emailconfirmed? 'uniqueIPAddress' => false, # If $wgPutIPinRC is true, users sharing IPs won't be promoted

Although, it is questionable do we need autopromote functionality at all. So, far I can understand what I see on recent changes it is enabled by default in a new Mediawiki version.

When we see the new wiki running we can discuss: wgFlaggedRevTabs = false; // add stable/draft revision tabs $wgFlaggedRevComments = true; // can users make comments that will show up below flagged revisions?

...
CSS: I will try to adapt the CSS to our skin.

The FlaggedRev tools and icons are currently not present, which I can see on my locally installed wiki as it uses the current openSUSE skin.

The InputBox is fine as far as I checked it.

The rest I had no time to check.

...
User Rights: Who should have which permissions in FlaggedRevs? Please see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:FlaggedRevs#User_rights

Maybe this is the answer (from Wikibooks settings). // So that administrators/bureaucrats have same permissions as editors by default $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['review'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autoreview'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autoconfirmed'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['patrolmarks'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autopatrolother'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['unreviewedpages'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['validate'] = true;

or, like with autopromote, just manually give appropriate rights.

Maybe we could give rights to those who have already contributed many good articles. [...] Greetings, Javier

Rupert Horstkötter

11:52

2009/12/16 Javier Llorente :

...

...
We may use "Welcome to openSUSE wiki" as "Welcome to openSUSE.org" is a bit ambitious. Once when wiki was the center point of openSUSE.org current was OK, but now we should limit the scope of welcome message.

I would name it "Welcome" instead of "Welcome to openSUSE wiki" (it's a bit long in my opinion).

I myself actually prefer Rajko's suggestion.

...

What about wikis in other languages?

We'll first complete the english wiki. Foreign languages will follow in a second step. de, fr, es definitely. The others: we'll reach out to local sysops and ask for commitment. Otherwise we start from scratch with these. This has been discussed in our last meeting. Best, R -- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Javier Llorente

12:19

On Wednesday 16 December 2009 12:52:01 you wrote:

...

2009/12/16 Javier Llorente :

...
...
We may use "Welcome to openSUSE wiki" as "Welcome to openSUSE.org" is a bit ambitious. Once when wiki was the center point of openSUSE.org current was OK, but now we should limit the scope of welcome message.

I would name it "Welcome" instead of "Welcome to openSUSE wiki" (it's a bit long in my opinion).

I myself actually prefer Rajko's suggestion.

...
What about wikis in other languages?

We'll first complete the english wiki. Foreign languages will follow in a second step. de, fr, es definitely. The others: we'll reach out to local sysops and ask for commitment. Otherwise we start from scratch with these. This has been discussed in our last meeting.

OK. So there's nothing new. I am a bit disconnected these days (final exams, papers, etc) but I am going to "reconnect" back again next week :-) Thanks, Javier

John E. Perry

17 Dec 17 Dec

06:04

Javier Llorente wrote:

...

I would name it "Welcome" instead of "Welcome to openSUSE wiki" (it's a bit long in my opinion).

A problem I see with just "Welcome" is that too many web sites use that as the name of their entry page. So I have to edit many of my bookmarks to give a meaningful name, otherwise I have a sidebar full of Welcomes and no way to find the site I want without either opening the bookmark's properties box or opening the site itself. How about "openSuSE Wiki Welcome" instead? Gives the needed information up front so you don't have to depend upon tooltips. In any case, just "Welcome" is useless imo. Now that all the hard stuff seems to be winding down, maybe you could give me something easy to contribute to? Sorry to just disappear as I did, but you guys went much too fast for me, and it seemed better not to get in the way. I really do want to contribute. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

jdd

08:02

Le 17/12/2009 07:04, John E. Perry a écrit :

...

How about "openSuSE Wiki Welcome" instead?

very good idea. Don't forget to add some meta tag with "home page", as most people search for "project home page" in google. "openSUSE home page" should find our wiki, even if this is not human visible :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rupert Horstkötter

13:50

Javier, 2009/12/17 John E. Perry :

...

Javier Llorente wrote:

...
I would name it "Welcome" instead of "Welcome to openSUSE wiki" (it's a bit long in my opinion).

A problem I see with just "Welcome" is that too many web sites use that as the name of their entry page. So I have to edit many of my bookmarks to give a meaningful name, otherwise I have a sidebar full of Welcomes and no way to find the site I want without either opening the bookmark's properties box or opening the site itself.

How about "openSuSE Wiki Welcome" instead? Gives the needed information up front so you don't have to depend upon tooltips. In any case, just "Welcome" is useless imo.

Now that all the hard stuff seems to be winding down, maybe you could give me something easy to contribute to? Sorry to just disappear as I did, but you guys went much too fast for me, and it seemed better not to get in the way. I really do want to contribute.

This is certainly much appreciated. We have defined 6 action items - they are outlined at http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2009-12/msg00040.html I'd like to ask you to contact the respective assignees, sync up with their current status and ask how to help them (for the AI you're interested in) Thanks, R

...

John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rupert Horstkötter

14:00

2009/12/17 Rupert Horstkötter :

...

Javier,

2009/12/17 John E. Perry :

...
Javier Llorente wrote:

...
I would name it "Welcome" instead of "Welcome to openSUSE wiki" (it's a bit long in my opinion).

A problem I see with just "Welcome" is that too many web sites use that as the name of their entry page. So I have to edit many of my bookmarks to give a meaningful name, otherwise I have a sidebar full of Welcomes and no way to find the site I want without either opening the bookmark's properties box or opening the site itself.

How about "openSuSE Wiki Welcome" instead? Gives the needed information up front so you don't have to depend upon tooltips. In any case, just "Welcome" is useless imo.

Now that all the hard stuff seems to be winding down, maybe you could give me something easy to contribute to? Sorry to just disappear as I did, but you guys went much too fast for me, and it seemed better not to get in the way. I really do want to contribute.

This is certainly much appreciated. We have defined 6 action items - they are outlined at http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2009-12/msg00040.html I'd like to ask you to contact the respective assignees, sync up with their current status and ask how to help them (for the AI you're interested in)

BTW, updates on AIs can be found at http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2009-12/msg00056.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2009-12/msg00049.html

...

Thanks, R

...
John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com

Javier Llorente

16 Dec 16 Dec

09:05

On Tuesday 15 December 2009 14:03:29 Frank Sundermeyer wrote: [...]

...

7. Everything I missed ---------------------- If there is any other thing you need (configuration option, skin, css) let me know.

What about wikis in other languages? Cheers, Javier

Henne Vogelsang

10:57

Hi, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:

...

before officially announcing the new wiki instance (wiki.opensuse.org) there are still a few things to do or to clarify.

So its finally there. Cool, thanks for making this happen :)

...

1. Sysop:

Have I forgotten someone?

Do i have to put on my puppy look?

...

2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

The frontpage, which should be named Welcome imho, should be a portal of the portals we will have. So the frontpage should be a copy of openSUSE:Portal_Template.

...

3. Namespaces: -------------- ATM we have the same namespaces as on en.o.o (SDB / SDB_Discussion, FAQ, howto). Let me know if you want to keep these and which ones I should add.

We should start with the namespaces i mentioned in the structure we talked about. So Portal, SDB, Project, Meta, 11.0, 11.1 and the other usual suspects (User, File and so on). And these should be removed: Help, FAQ, howto, openSUSE, Type, Concept. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rupert Horstkötter

11:46

2009/12/16 Henne Vogelsang :

...

Hi,

Frank Sundermeyer wrote:

...
before officially announcing the new wiki instance (wiki.opensuse.org) there are still a few things to do or to clarify.

So its finally there. Cool, thanks for making this happen :)

...
1. Sysop:

Have I forgotten someone?

Do i have to put on my puppy look?

Please! No seriously, ceratinly give Sysop and FlaggedRevs rights to Henne

...

...
2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

The frontpage, which should be named Welcome imho, should be a portal of the portals we will have. So the frontpage should be a copy of openSUSE:Portal_Template.

It will be a slightly modified version of openSUSE:Portal_Template. It's not created yet though. Remy? Shayon?

...

...
3. Namespaces: -------------- ATM we have the same namespaces as on en.o.o (SDB / SDB_Discussion, FAQ, howto). Let me know if you want to keep these and which ones I should add.

We should start with the namespaces i mentioned in the structure we talked about. So Portal, SDB, Project, Meta, 11.0, 11.1 and the other usual suspects (User, File and so on). And these should be removed: Help, FAQ, howto, openSUSE, Type, Concept.

Yeah, Henne's proposed structure is the way to go.

...

Henne

-- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

17 Dec 17 Dec

05:34

On Wednesday 16 December 2009 04:57:49 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

We should start with the namespaces i mentioned in the structure we talked about. So Portal, SDB, Project, Meta, 11.0, 11.1 and the other usual suspects (User, File and so on). And these should be removed: Help, FAQ, howto, openSUSE, Type, Concept.

Project namespace is named by the name of project, in our case it is openSUSE. Help is usually meta help around MediaWiki software, local writing guidelines deletion policy and similar help content that is of no interest to normal visitors. It would be nice to split openSUSE project meta information and Help for editor and authors that currently is in openSUSE namespace, which is unfortunate consequence of the fact that no one read http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Namespaces before acting. That means Help might be needed. Type, Concept and Property are not defaults. That is added by Semantic MediaWiki extension, so I would learn more before rush them out of sight. In all discussions no one mentioned what we are going to do with other purposes that wiki is currently used for: Ambassador program, Artwork, Weekly news, etc. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang

11:10

On 12/17/2009 06:34 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Wednesday 16 December 2009 04:57:49 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...
We should start with the namespaces i mentioned in the structure we talked about. So Portal, SDB, Project, Meta, 11.0, 11.1 and the other usual suspects (User, File and so on). And these should be removed: Help, FAQ, howto, openSUSE, Type, Concept.

Project namespace is named by the name of project, in our case it is openSUSE.

Okay with me. I don't care if its named Project or openSUSE...

...

Help is usually meta help around MediaWiki software, local writing guidelines deletion policy and similar help content that is of no interest to normal visitors.

All of this should be in the Meta namespace.

...

It would be nice to split openSUSE project meta information and Help for editor and authors that currently is in openSUSE namespace, which is unfortunate consequence of the fact that no one read http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Namespaces before acting. That means Help might be needed.

Yes thats the purpose of having an own namespace for the meta information.

...

Type, Concept and Property are not defaults. That is added by Semantic MediaWiki extension, so I would learn more before rush them out of sight.

Ah okay. I did not know that...

...

In all discussions no one mentioned what we are going to do with other purposes that wiki is currently used for: Ambassador program, Artwork, Weekly news, etc.

Ambassadors are a team and should be in the project namespace (openSUSE:Teams/Ambassadors). Artwork should be split into the respective namespaces. So for instance the style guides should be in the project namespace (openSUSE:Guidelines/Artwork), version specific artwork should be in the main namespace, the documentation about the tools should be in the SDB, user generated artwork should imho not be on the wiki but on the sites that actually are made for this (suse-art, kde-look, gnome-look etc.). And if we really want to, we can have in the main namespace Portal:Artwork. For weekly news the released content should be in the main namespace and all the other stuff should be in the project namespace (openSUSE:Teams/WeeklyNews). As you can see if you look at the wiki content in this way you can split everything into * Distro Pages: main, introduction to the current distribution * Support Database: SDB, one place for docu no matter what kind * Project stuff: openSUSE, effigy of the project structure * Wiki Documentation: Meta, everything you need to work in the wiki And if you think we need an overview about a specific topic as introduction to the world you put a Portal into the main namespace. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rupert Horstkötter

13:53

Henne, 2009/12/17 Henne Vogelsang :

...

On 12/17/2009 06:34 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

...
On Wednesday 16 December 2009 04:57:49 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...
We should start with the namespaces i mentioned in the structure we talked about. So Portal, SDB, Project, Meta, 11.0, 11.1 and the other usual suspects (User, File and so on). And these should be removed: Help, FAQ, howto, openSUSE, Type, Concept.

Project namespace is named by the name of project, in our case it is openSUSE.

Okay with me. I don't care if its named Project or openSUSE...

...
Help is usually meta help around MediaWiki software, local writing guidelines deletion policy and similar help content that is of no interest to normal visitors.

All of this should be in the Meta namespace.

...
It would be nice to split openSUSE project meta information and Help for editor and authors that currently is in openSUSE namespace, which is unfortunate consequence of the fact that no one read http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Namespaces before acting. That means Help might be needed.

Yes thats the purpose of having an own namespace for the meta information.

...
Type, Concept and Property are not defaults. That is added by Semantic MediaWiki extension, so I would learn more before rush them out of sight.

Ah okay. I did not know that...

...
In all discussions no one mentioned what we are going to do with other purposes that wiki is currently used for: Ambassador program, Artwork, Weekly news, etc.

Ambassadors are a team and should be in the project namespace (openSUSE:Teams/Ambassadors). Artwork should be split into the respective namespaces. So for instance the style guides should be in the project namespace (openSUSE:Guidelines/Artwork), version specific artwork should be in the main namespace, the documentation about the tools should be in the SDB, user generated artwork should imho not be on the wiki but on the sites that actually are made for this (suse-art, kde-look, gnome-look etc.). And if we really want to, we can have in the main namespace Portal:Artwork. For weekly news the released content should be in the main namespace and all the other stuff should be in the project namespace (openSUSE:Teams/WeeklyNews).

Released content of the OWN in the main namespace could generate problems with the FlaggedRevs QA and the RSS feed to the wiki forums .. only end-user interesting distro documentation should end up in there. Best, R

...

As you can see if you look at the wiki content in this way you can split everything into

* Distro Pages: main, introduction to the current distribution * Support Database: SDB, one place for docu no matter what kind * Project stuff: openSUSE, effigy of the project structure * Wiki Documentation: Meta, everything you need to work in the wiki

And if you think we need an overview about a specific topic as introduction to the world you put a Portal into the main namespace.

Henne

-- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

18 Dec 18 Dec

05:09

On Thursday 17 December 2009 07:53:41 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:

...

Henne,

2009/12/17 Henne Vogelsang : ... For weekly news the released content

...
should be in the main namespace and all the other stuff should be in the project namespace (openSUSE:Teams/WeeklyNews).

Released content of the OWN in the main namespace could generate problems with the FlaggedRevs QA and the RSS feed to the wiki forums .. only end-user interesting distro documentation should end up in there.

Right. FlaggedRevs can be enabled or disabled by namespace, that means it should be enabled only for namespace with actual content that should be checked. Allowing mixed content it the same namespace: - will allow articles with Unreviewed tag all over the place creating appearance of mess, - it will diminish effectiveness of reviewer tools. *** We still have no clear idea about tools that are installed, and how to incorporate those tools in our proposals about wiki structure. Even worse, we discuss namespaces without actually understanding what they are in context of MediaWiki. We can't have Portal namespace in Main mane space. MediaWiki doesn't have nested namespaces. IMHO, we have to take time and learn a bit about tools. For that we have to create list of articles that go in a new wiki and using them as test object analyze what we have to create. Such list we need for actual transfer, so it is not wasted time, it is a part of the process. Ad hoc discussion as current about namespaces have potential to break a plan of a clean structure before we actually start implementation. -- Regards Rajko, openSUSE Wiki Team: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team People of openSUSE: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rupert Horstkötter

09:50

Rajko, 2009/12/18 Rajko M. :

...

On Thursday 17 December 2009 07:53:41 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:

...
Henne,

2009/12/17 Henne Vogelsang : ... For weekly news the released content

...
should be in the main namespace and all the other stuff should be in the project namespace (openSUSE:Teams/WeeklyNews).

Released content of the OWN in the main namespace could generate problems with the FlaggedRevs QA and the RSS feed to the wiki forums .. only end-user interesting distro documentation should end up in there.

Right.

FlaggedRevs can be enabled or disabled by namespace, that means it should be enabled only for namespace with actual content that should be checked. Allowing mixed content it the same namespace: - will allow articles with Unreviewed tag all over the place creating appearance of mess, - it will diminish effectiveness of reviewer tools.

+1, thanks for pointing that out again.

...

*** We still have no clear idea about tools that are installed, and how to incorporate those tools in our proposals about wiki structure. Even worse, we discuss namespaces without actually understanding what they are in context of MediaWiki.

We can't have Portal namespace in Main mane space. MediaWiki doesn't have nested namespaces.

IMHO, we have to take time and learn a bit about tools. For that we have to create list of articles that go in a new wiki and using them as test object analyze what we have to create. Such list we need for actual transfer, so it is not wasted time, it is a part of the process.

I second this. We'll anyway get started with Articles Transition as described at http://en.opensuse.org/Transition_Guidelines#Articles_Transition and thus it's part of the process. Btw, do we have that separate "playground wiki" now (not wiki.o.o)? If so, we can also utilize that one for testing purposes. May you please take the lead in the tool-reviewing and keep seniors in sync here Rajko? That said, we certainly still need to concentrate on not to lose too much time at this point - the wiki transition to wiki.o.o should get started asap.

...

Ad hoc discussion as current about namespaces have potential to break a plan of a clean structure before we actually start implementation.

+1. Please take the lead in bringing this to a good shape. Would be much appreciated! Thanks, R

...

-- Regards Rajko,

openSUSE Wiki Team: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team People of openSUSE: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang

13:23

Hi, On 12/17/2009 02:53 PM, Rupert Horstkötter wrote:

...

...
For weekly news the released content should be in the main namespace and all the other stuff should be in the project namespace (openSUSE:Teams/WeeklyNews).

Released content of the OWN in the main namespace could generate problems with the FlaggedRevs QA and the RSS feed to the wiki forums

Care to elaborate why? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rupert Horstkötter

16 Dec 16 Dec

11:40

Frank, 2009/12/15 Frank Sundermeyer :

...

Hi Team,

before officially announcing the new wiki instance (wiki.opensuse.org) there are still a few things to do or to clarify.

see http://wiki.opensuse.org/Special:Version for details

PLEASE: Do not start adding content to wiki.o.o, yet. Let's wait until everything is in place (hopefully some time this week). However, you are welcome to test the new wiki - please delete articles once you do not need them. I will delete every remaining article before we officially start. Preferred place for testing should be your user page (I will not delete pages in the USER namespace).

1. Sysop: ---------- I think

Javier Jonathan Rajko Remy Rupert Shayon Sascha Spyhawk (I do not know the real name ;-))

should have sysop rights in the new wiki. Agreed? Have I forgotten someone?

Since you have to have been logged in once, before I can make you sysop, please log in at http://wiki.opensuse.org/ ASAP. Once you have done so, drop me a note including your wiki login name.

I logged in once. My wiki user name is "rhorstkoetter"

...

In case of problems logging in, please delete all opensuse cookies.

2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

The right column has to be removed. The content of that column actually is offloaded to www.opensuse.org, just the sponsors need to be moved to the left column. Afaik Robert's task (he is aware)

...

3. Namespaces: -------------- ATM we have the same namespaces as on en.o.o (SDB / SDB_Discussion, FAQ, howto). Let me know if you want to keep these and which ones I should add.

4. FlaggedRevs ------------------

Configuration: Rajko, any hints/input from your side is welcome.

CSS: I will try to adapt the CSS to our skin.

User Rights: Who should have which permissions in FlaggedRevs? Please see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:FlaggedRevs#User_rights

Only the wiki team, i.e. the wiki moderators should have user rights to FlaggedRevs. Otherwise the whole QA isn't worth it.

...

5. Lucene Search ---------------- This is the only requested extension that is currently not installed. Adding this would require a considerable change to the server configuration. We have tested the SphinxSearch extension (Sphinx is even faster than Lucene). The only difference I noticed was an increase in speed. The search interface remains the same, and the result list is sorted a bit differently than with the standard wiki search. Apart from that, no changes. Honestly I do not see any benefits using an external search engine rather than performance (and that AFAIK has never been a problem). Whatsmore, the internal wiki search has improved, too, since MediaWiki 1.5.8

6. Use of Semantic MediaWiki ---------------------------- Has anything been decided on this topic?

We'll use it but it's still not discussed neither it is advertised in the Wiki Guidelines. Remy?

...

7. Everything I missed ---------------------- If there is any other thing you need (configuration option, skin, css) let me know.

-- Regards Frank

Frank Sundermeyer, Technical Writer, Documentation SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.opensuse.org/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane" Dogbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rémy Marquis

17 Dec 17 Dec

00:21

...

...
6. Use of Semantic MediaWiki ---------------------------- Has anything been decided on this topic?

We'll use it but it's still not discussed neither it is advertised in the Wiki Guidelines. Remy?

I'm not familiar (not at all) with semantic wiki, so input from everybody is more than wanted (as I understand it, it's a kind of dynamic categorization, right) I think the explanation/into to semantic wiki could be merged with the "Categorization Guidelines" (which is still wip). See also http://semantic-mediawiki.org/

...

...
...
2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

The frontpage, which should be named Welcome imho, should be a portal of the portals we will have. So the frontpage should be a copy of openSUSE:Portal_Template.

It will be a slightly modified version of openSUSE:Portal_Template. It's not created yet though. Remy? Shayon?

Unfortunately, I don't really have time to look at this this week... But would be good to have a basic idea of the Portals that will be linked on the frontpage: Portals - Project (overview, communicate, ..) - Wiki (structure, templates and stuff) - 11.2 - Development (?) R. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Jon Rocker

01:52

I found this article to be of more help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_Web I do think sematic wiki content would be a true advantage and greatly enhance the wiki. Not just as far as categorization, but also for searching, tags, and so much more. The way I see it, this is a must have. Articles change all the time, and might fit in more than one category. Something like semantic wiki would allow us to accomplish this. At least from what I read. I certainly can't find a downside to this. Respectfully Jon Rocker On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 17:21, Rémy Marquis wrote:

...

...
...
6. Use of Semantic MediaWiki ---------------------------- Has anything been decided on this topic?

We'll use it but it's still not discussed neither it is advertised in the Wiki Guidelines. Remy?

I'm not familiar (not at all) with semantic wiki, so input from everybody is more than wanted (as I understand it, it's a kind of dynamic categorization, right) I think the explanation/into to semantic wiki could be merged with the "Categorization Guidelines" (which is still wip).

See also http://semantic-mediawiki.org/

...
...
...
2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

The frontpage, which should be named Welcome imho, should be a portal of the portals we will have. So the frontpage should be a copy of openSUSE:Portal_Template.

It will be a slightly modified version of openSUSE:Portal_Template. It's not created yet though. Remy? Shayon?

Unfortunately, I don't really have time to look at this this week... But would be good to have a basic idea of the Portals that will be linked on the frontpage:

Portals - Project (overview, communicate, ..) - Wiki (structure, templates and stuff) - 11.2 - Development (?)

R. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

jdd

08:00

Le 17/12/2009 01:21, Rémy Marquis a écrit :

...

I'm not familiar (not at all) with semantic wiki,

neither do I. First time I notice this. (as I understand it, it's a kind of

...

dynamic categorization, right)

this seems to need a large base of seasoned editors Google being very good as searching infirmal text in preent wikis, I'm always doubtfull of the interset of structured but difficult to edit things that only make the casual editor run away jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Shayon Mukherjee

09:35

Rémy Marquis wrote:

...

...
...
...
2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

The frontpage, which should be named Welcome imho, should be a portal of the portals we will have. So the frontpage should be a copy of openSUSE:Portal_Template.

It will be a slightly modified version of openSUSE:Portal_Template. It's not created yet though. Remy? Shayon?

Unfortunately, I don't really have time to look at this this week... But would be good to have a basic idea of the Portals that will be linked on the frontpage:

Portals - Project (overview, communicate, ..) - Wiki (structure, templates and stuff) - 11.2 - Development (?)

Hello , I very much agree with you regarding the same , as i on the same page too [1] . Well yesterday i just started with testing around the frontpage with my previous idea and having the new ones too on my test page.And few more views/proposals on this . But will update the list as soon as i get the definite things to come up with . For now the below link :) [1] http://en.opensuse.org/User:Wwarlock/Test2

...

R.

-- Regards, Shayon Mukherjee openSUSE Wiki Team http://en.opensuse.org/User:Wwarlock Email: hkwarlock@gmail.com Twitter: ShayonM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang

11:17

Hi, On 12/17/2009 01:21 AM, Rémy Marquis wrote:

...

But would be good to have a basic idea of the Portals that will be linked on the frontpage:

We can start with the namespaces we have for starters. So - Project (overview, communicate, ..) - Wiki (structure, templates and stuff) - 11.2 - SDB (Documentation about using the distro) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rupert Horstkötter

13:45

Remy, 2009/12/17 Rémy Marquis :

...

...
...
6. Use of Semantic MediaWiki ---------------------------- Has anything been decided on this topic?

We'll use it but it's still not discussed neither it is advertised in the Wiki Guidelines. Remy?

I'm not familiar (not at all) with semantic wiki, so input from everybody is more than wanted (as I understand it, it's a kind of dynamic categorization, right) I think the explanation/into to semantic wiki could be merged with the "Categorization Guidelines" (which is still wip).

See also http://semantic-mediawiki.org/

...
...
...
2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named?

The frontpage, which should be named Welcome imho, should be a portal of the portals we will have. So the frontpage should be a copy of openSUSE:Portal_Template.

It will be a slightly modified version of openSUSE:Portal_Template. It's not created yet though. Remy? Shayon?

Unfortunately, I don't really have time to look at this this week... But would be good to have a basic idea of the Portals that will be linked on the frontpage:

Shayon actually started to work on that one http://en.opensuse.org/User:Wwarlock/Test2 (WIP) Best, R

...

Portals - Project (overview, communicate, ..) - Wiki (structure, templates and stuff) - 11.2 - Development (?)

R.

Shayon Mukherjee

17:10

Rupert Horstkötter wrote:

...

Remy,

...
Unfortunately, I don't really have time to look at this this week... But would be good to have a basic idea of the Portals that will be linked on the frontpage:

Shayon actually started to work on that one http://en.opensuse.org/User:Wwarlock/Test2 (WIP)

Well yes this thing is WIP [1] , Rajko , Remy (comments / suggestion) :) ?. Also we need to focus more on the content of the Navigation ( 9-Box-Frame).That said , Are the current categories mentioned over there are fine or do we need to have a re-work on it . Like pointing out only 6-9 major/key categories to the user ? Currently the 9 -box-frame is just highlighted,later on after the things are finalized i am going to make them under the dafult box as of openSUSE:Portal_Template , so as to maintain the consistency. Update : At the same time , the concerned ones should not forget that the guideline thing is still pending ( including me) and has to be presented while or after the transition. But so far the progress is good . The entire guidelines are being well taken care by Remy -with major support (he's out this week) ,Rajko and Me.Lets hope for the Best ! [1] http://en.opensuse.org/User:Wwarlock/Test2

...

Best, R

...
Portals - Project (overview, communicate, ..) - Wiki (structure, templates and stuff) - 11.2 - Development (?)

R.

Sascha 'saigkill' Manns

16 Dec 16 Dec

16:24

Hello Frank, Am Dienstag, 15. Dezember 2009 14:03:29 wrote Frank Sundermeyer:

...

see http://wiki.opensuse.org/Special:Version for details You have done an great job :-)

...

PLEASE: Do not start adding content to wiki.o.o, yet. Let's wait until everything is in place (hopefully some time this week). Could you tell us, if we can start working?

I've tried to Login, but it shows that iChain doesn't work ATM.

...

Since you have to have been logged in once, before I can make you sysop, please log in at http://wiki.opensuse.org/ ASAP. Once you have done so, drop me a note including your wiki login name. saigkill doesn't work

...

2. Home page: ----------------- Do you want to keep the right column or should I remove it? How should the wiki homepage be named? In my view, i think we can leave it...

...

3. Namespaces: -------------- ATM we have the same namespaces as on en.o.o (SDB / SDB_Discussion, FAQ, howto). Let me know if you want to keep these and which ones I should add. As proposed in an other Mail, i think Development would be good.

-- Sincerely yours Sascha Manns open-slx GmbH openSUSE Member openSUSE Community & Support Agent openSUSE Ambassador Web: http://www.open-slx.de openSUSE Marketing Team Web: http://www.open-slx.com openSUSE Build Service openSUSE Medical Team Web: http://saschamanns.gulli.to Blog: http://saigkill.wordpress.com ClaimID: http://claimid.com/saigkill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang

16:44

Hi, On 12/16/2009 05:24 PM, Sascha 'saigkill' Manns wrote:

...

Am Dienstag, 15. Dezember 2009 14:03:29 wrote Frank Sundermeyer:

...
3. Namespaces: -------------- ATM we have the same namespaces as on en.o.o (SDB / SDB_Discussion, FAQ, howto). Let me know if you want to keep these and which ones I should add. As proposed in an other Mail, i think Development would be good.

Please. Don't introduce random namespaces just because they sound cool. Once we have content _and_ Portal:Development we can create it. Not before... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

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participants (11)

Frank Sundermeyer
Henne Vogelsang
Javier Llorente
jdd
John E. Perry
Jon Rocker
Rajko M.
Rupert Horstkötter
Rémy Marquis
Sascha 'saigkill' Manns
Shayon Mukherjee