[opensuse-wiki] help/support performance
Hello! Please perform the following experiment: Take somebody you know and never has been to www.opensuse.org before. Tell him to find help/support on that site. Stop the time until the user finds the links to help/support. My guess: it takes ages to even get to the page where one could find it because the frontpage does not even mention support/help and wiki is not a synonym for those words. Take the same person and stop the time until he finds help/support on www.ubuntu.com. Compare both sites' performance. Tell that person that one has to click on wiki, stop the time until the person finds help/support on the following page. My guess: it takes ages because help is only mentioned once and as a tiny, tiny link and that link does not even link to helo/support but to download-help. Sorry to be that sarcastic, but one could think that opensuse.org maintainers do not expect a lot of users to come to this site looking for help. My suggestion, put a big fat icon on the frontpage and the following that displays a question-mark and a link below it that states: help/support. In fact help on opensuse.org is artificially split into communicate and documentation both not being as straight forward as a simple big icon and the two words/help/support. Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
В Вск, 11/11/2007 в 16:52 +0100, Sven Burmeister пишет:
Hello!
Please perform the following experiment:
Take somebody you know and never has been to www.opensuse.org before. Tell him to find help/support on that site. Stop the time until the user finds the links to help/support. My guess: it takes ages to even get to the page where one could find it because the frontpage does not even mention support/help and wiki is not a synonym for those words.
Take the same person and stop the time until he finds help/support on www.ubuntu.com.
Compare both sites' performance.
Tell that person that one has to click on wiki, stop the time until the person finds help/support on the following page. My guess: it takes ages because help is only mentioned once and as a tiny, tiny link and that link does not even link to helo/support but to download-help.
Sorry to be that sarcastic, but one could think that opensuse.org maintainers do not expect a lot of users to come to this site looking for help.
My suggestion, put a big fat icon on the frontpage and the following that displays a question-mark and a link below it that states: help/support.
In fact help on opensuse.org is artificially split into communicate and documentation both not being as straight forward as a simple big icon and the two words/help/support.
http://help.opensuse.org and "Online Help" button on the desktop work pretty well. Anyway, I suggest adding one more line to "openSUSE" box on the top left - "Get Support", which links to "help.opensuse.org". -- Regards, Nikolay Derkach --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Sonntag, 11. November 2007, Nikolay Derkach wrote:
http://help.opensuse.org and "Online Help" button on the desktop work pretty well.
Said the person who started off at www.opensuse.org? Or you who knows about these? The latter would pretty much prove my point. Just measure the performance in the experiment outlined above and if opensuse.org stays below I'll admit that I was wrong and that opensuse.org is better designed to help users.
Anyway, I suggest adding one more line to "openSUSE" box on the top left - "Get Support", which links to "help.opensuse.org".
Which does not solve the issue of the frontpage not having any relation to help. Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
В Вск, 11/11/2007 в 17:53 +0100, Sven Burmeister пишет:
On Sonntag, 11. November 2007, Nikolay Derkach wrote:
http://help.opensuse.org and "Online Help" button on the desktop work pretty well.
Said the person who started off at www.opensuse.org? Or you who knows about these? The latter would pretty much prove my point.
Everyone who installed openSUSE 10.3 has this button on his/her desktop, so this is not a point.
Anyway, I suggest adding one more line to "openSUSE" box on the top left - "Get Support", which links to "help.opensuse.org".
Which does not solve the issue of the frontpage not having any relation to help.
Sure, it does. -- Regards, Nikolay Derkach --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Sonntag, 11. November 2007, Nikolay Derkach wrote:
В Вск, 11/11/2007 в 17:53 +0100, Sven Burmeister пишет:
On Sonntag, 11. November 2007, Nikolay Derkach wrote:
http://help.opensuse.org and "Online Help" button on the desktop work pretty well.
Said the person who started off at www.opensuse.org? Or you who knows about these? The latter would pretty much prove my point.
Everyone who installed openSUSE 10.3 has this button on his/her desktop, so this is not a point.
Are you kidding? Can people just not admit that the current design is not helpful? What if I could not install opensuse or want to have a look at available help before deciding to install it? Sorry, but you are just ignorant. Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
В Вск, 11/11/2007 в 19:18 +0100, Sven Burmeister пишет:
Are you kidding?
Nah, are you?
Can people just not admit that the current design is not helpful?
Sure, it has some rough edges, but it's not totally bad.
What if I could not install opensuse or want to have a look at available help before deciding to install it?
Sorry, but you are just ignorant.
That's why I suggest adding a link for help.o.o, and I don't ignore problems at all. -- Regards, Nikolay Derkach --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Sonntag, 11. November 2007, Nikolay Derkach wrote:
Can people just not admit that the current design is not helpful?
Sure, it has some rough edges, but it's not totally bad.
In terms of finding help it is. And instead of admitting it you try to argue against it, which would be alright if you would actually state valid arguments on a _website's_ performance. The fact that you point to a) a site that is neither linked on the frontpage, nor on the following and b) an icon that is on the desktop, i.e. not on the website, really says it all. Just perform the experiment, as I did, and you will see the differnece in time until the user gets to the help-pages.
What if I could not install opensuse or want to have a look at available help before deciding to install it?
Sorry, but you are just ignorant.
That's why I suggest adding a link for help.o.o, and I don't ignore problems at all.
No, you just point to an icon on the desktop when arguing about a website's performance on guiding the user to the actual help-pages. You just made my day! As long as opensuse.org's performance in guiding the user to the help-pages is worse than ubunut's or any other there is a problem being ignored there is something to be improved. If you perform the xperiment you will see the factor and how bad it performs on this. Did you ever wonder why this list has hardly any traffic? Is it because there are no big problems left or because this is an example of group-think? Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-11 at 20:27 +0300, Nikolay Derkach wrote:
Said the person who started off at www.opensuse.org? Or you who knows about these? The latter would pretty much prove my point.
Everyone who installed openSUSE 10.3 has this button on his/her desktop, so this is not a point.
Suppose they haven't installed yet or that the installation failed. FYI: that icon in my desktop fires up an unintelligible page in German (http://help.opensuse.org/), with nothing obvious like the British or Spanish flag to change the language. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHOCngtTMYHG2NR9URAgLmAJ48KeOlqC+4c3G6tdrHLGzXWx/L+QCffkr7 7HmAT/VWG4UTul54XLY2SQo= =nJNJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
FYI: that icon in my desktop fires up an unintelligible page in German (http://help.opensuse.org/), with nothing obvious like the British or Spanish flag to change the language.
your browser is probably not configured correctly about langage or es is not yet online :-( but if I only clic on mine, it opens... in gvim :-! (I know why and corrected this already - when one clic right on a file and choose "open with" and clic "keep the config" it make this choice the first [very bad idea], as I edit html with gvim... it have to be changed in the kde control center later) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Montag, 12. November 2007 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
The Sunday 2007-11-11 at 20:27 +0300, Nikolay Derkach wrote:
Said the person who started off at www.opensuse.org? Or you who knows about these? The latter would pretty much prove my point.
Everyone who installed openSUSE 10.3 has this button on his/her desktop, so this is not a point.
Suppose they haven't installed yet or that the installation failed.
FYI: that icon in my desktop fires up an unintelligible page in German (http://help.opensuse.org/), with nothing obvious like the British or Spanish flag to change the language.
As jdd already wrote, your browser is probably misconfigured and has accept-language set to german. The spanish page exists: http://help.opensuse.org/index.html.es I also verified with a manual telnet call [1] that the server delivers it if your browser preferences are correct ;-) However, you are right that there should be a language selector - the best solution is probably to use a language dropdown as done in the wiki. Regards, Christian Boltz [1] # telnet help.opensuse.org 80 GET / HTTP/1.0 Accept-Language: es Host: help.opensuse.org -- write permissions for you? are you crazy? :-))) [Martin Lasarsch in https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=188068] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-11-12 at 13:30 +0100, Christian Boltz wrote:
FYI: that icon in my desktop fires up an unintelligible page in German (http://help.opensuse.org/), with nothing obvious like the British or Spanish flag to change the language.
As jdd already wrote, your browser is probably misconfigured and has accept-language set to german.
Dunno, it's a browser I have never used. It's not mozilla, firefox, konqueror... It it "web browser 2.20.0". It pops an error going to preferences, where there is no language defined at all. I have no idea what browser this is - and remember that I'm wearing my absolute newbie hat, I know nothing :-P For your info, I have selected "English" as language, exited the program, hit the help icon again... and it again comes back in German - I verify that English is the selected language in preferencees. The icon is firing... I have no idea what the icon is firing, looking at "properties" of the icon. It just says "online help", no path to a binary. It opens the link "http://help.opensuse.org/".
The spanish page exists: http://help.opensuse.org/index.html.es I also verified with a manual telnet call [1] that the server delivers it if your browser preferences are correct ;-)
Then the browser above - which I assure you is not the browser I normally use, ie, firefox - has now the correct preferences and pulls the German page. Sure, it must be broken and this deserves a bugzilla - but remember the newbie hat, I know nothing :-p Ah, looking at "ps afx" I learn that it is epiphany: 8105 ? Sl 0:06 epiphany http://help.opensuse.org but this I do not know, remember, and you would have to have a long support conversation with me, if I discover where is the help forum or mail list and how to bottom post and... Ok, I shut up X'-)
However, you are right that there should be a language selector - the best solution is probably to use a language dropdown as done in the wiki.
yep :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHOFhPtTMYHG2NR9URAnECAJ4nOIO9GmkjdUZf1Umbly7galM3PwCdE3UM 9if97YoQp29ZBbb5CmQLdMo= =XwTA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Dunno, it's a browser I have never used. It's not mozilla, firefox, konqueror... It it "web browser 2.20.0"
it's the browser setup in the kde config, usually this is konqueror, but you may have changed this (probably blindly, like I did with gvim :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-11-12 at 15:07 +0100, jdd wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Dunno, it's a browser I have never used. It's not mozilla, firefox, konqueror... It it "web browser 2.20.0"
it's the browser setup in the kde config, usually this is konqueror, but you may have changed this (probably blindly, like I did with gvim :-)
No, I don't think so: I'm simply using gnome. It might be worse: in fvwm2 the help thing opens firefox pointing to the local susehelp via local apache - which actually is what I personally want the help icon to do, but I didn't configure it either, as far as I remember. We really must not assume the user is already using linux, nor that his setup works correctly when he seeks help. Very probably he will be using windows and iexplorer! - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHOG5rtTMYHG2NR9URAgF0AJ9uDnNozDP1/80abWvKYZ1+9n7s7ACcCMy2 Iq+6WzB5dROodom66COjTYc= =s61E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
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The Monday 2007-11-12 at 15:07 +0100, jdd wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Dunno, it's a browser I have never used. It's not mozilla, firefox, konqueror... It it "web browser 2.20.0"
it's the browser setup in the kde config, usually this is konqueror, but you may have changed this (probably blindly, like I did with gvim :-)
No, I don't think so: I'm simply using gnome.
and evolution is probably the default browser :-)
It might be worse: in fvwm2 the help thing opens firefox pointing to the local susehelp via local apache - which actually is what I personally want the help icon to do, but I didn't configure it either, as far as I remember.
I think it was the old way it worked jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 12 November 2007 11:05:53 am jdd wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
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The Monday 2007-11-12 at 15:07 +0100, jdd wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Dunno, it's a browser I have never used. It's not mozilla, firefox, konqueror... It it "web browser 2.20.0"
it's the browser setup in the kde config, usually this is konqueror, but you may have changed this (probably blindly, like I did with gvim :-)
No, I don't think so: I'm simply using gnome.
and evolution is probably the default browser :-)
In earlier Carlos post: Ah, looking at "ps afx" I learn that it is epiphany: 8105 ? Sl 0:06 epiphany http://help.opensuse.org
It might be worse: in fvwm2 the help thing opens firefox pointing to the local susehelp via local apache - which actually is what I personally want the help icon to do, but I didn't configure it either, as far as I remember.
I think it was the old way it worked
jdd
Yes, that is how fvwm was configured and that was never changed :-) -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Nikolay Derkach wrote:
http://help.opensuse.org and "Online Help" button on the desktop work pretty well.
AFAIK this is brand new (even if already localized, nice :-!) can we link to it from front pages? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
В Вск, 11/11/2007 в 18:13 +0100, jdd пишет:
Nikolay Derkach wrote:
http://help.opensuse.org and "Online Help" button on the desktop work pretty well.
AFAIK this is brand new (even if already localized, nice :-!)
can we link to it from front pages?
Why not? Yes, it's already localised into several languages (cz dk fr nl pt_BR de fi it pt ru es). -- Regards, Nikolay Derkach --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister пишет:
Hello!
Please perform the following experiment:
Take somebody you know and never has been to www.opensuse.org before. Tell him to find help/support on that site. Stop the time until the user finds the links to help/support. My guess: it takes ages to even get to the page where one could find it because the frontpage does not even mention support/help and wiki is not a synonym for those words.
Take the same person and stop the time until he finds help/support on www.ubuntu.com.
Compare both sites' performance.
Tell that person that one has to click on wiki, stop the time until the person finds help/support on the following page. My guess: it takes ages because help is only mentioned once and as a tiny, tiny link and that link does not even link to helo/support but to download-help.
Sorry to be that sarcastic, but one could think that opensuse.org maintainers do not expect a lot of users to come to this site looking for help.
My suggestion, put a big fat icon on the frontpage and the following that displays a question-mark and a link below it that states: help/support.
In fact help on opensuse.org is artificially split into communicate and documentation both not being as straight forward as a simple big icon and the two words/help/support.
Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
wiki it was easier to find the answer to an interesting question in the old version. It is the fact! Now it is necessary to search long, I agree with you Sven. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 11 November 2007 09:52:32 am Sven Burmeister wrote:
Hello!
Please perform the following experiment:
Take somebody you know and never has been to www.opensuse.org before. Tell him to find help/support on that site. Stop the time until the user finds the links to help/support. My guess: it takes ages to even get to the page where one could find it because the frontpage does not even mention support/help and wiki is not a synonym for those words.
Take the same person and stop the time until he finds help/support on www.ubuntu.com.
Compare both sites' performance.
Tell that person that one has to click on wiki, stop the time until the person finds help/support on the following page. My guess: it takes ages because help is only mentioned once and as a tiny, tiny link and that link does not even link to helo/support but to download-help.
It is interesting mental experiment, where you came to common sense conclusion. I agree that for visitor that want to see what is openSUSE about and what kind of support is offered it will be hard to find any link with words help or support.
Sorry to be that sarcastic, but one could think that opensuse.org maintainers do not expect a lot of users to come to this site looking for help.
The ideas about organization come from all maintainers, and there I can see one person more, you. Yes, anyone showing more interest in openSUSE wiki, like you right now is maintainer. Though, Novell has responsibility to keep content on their servers within legal limits. To ensure that they have their employees at final stage of implementation.
My suggestion, put a big fat icon on the frontpage and the following that displays a question-mark and a link below it that states: help/support.
Big fat icon is in style with modern GUI that suffer from too many icons, and designers should start thinking about using Chinese or Japanese characters instead of icons, at least some people will have easy job to understand commands without popups. I would vote for a big fat written words "Help and Support". That can be liked to page that will offer free and for pay options.
In fact help on opensuse.org is artificially split into communicate and documentation both not being as straight forward as a simple big icon and the two words/help/support.
Well, this is not artificial if you don't think that they are only for help. They contain help options, but they are used for other purposes, so they will persist. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hey! On 11.11.2007, at 16:52, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Hello!
Please perform the following experiment:
Take somebody you know and never has been to www.opensuse.org before. Tell him to find help/support on that site. Stop the time until the user finds the links to help/support. My guess: it takes ages to even get to the page where one could find it because the frontpage does not even mention support/help and wiki is not a synonym for those words.
Take the same person and stop the time until he finds help/support on www.ubuntu.com.
Compare both sites' performance.
Tell that person that one has to click on wiki, stop the time until the person finds help/support on the following page. My guess: it takes ages because help is only mentioned once and as a tiny, tiny link and that link does not even link to helo/support but to download-help.
Sorry to be that sarcastic, but one could think that opensuse.org maintainers do not expect a lot of users to come to this site looking for help.
My suggestion, put a big fat icon on the frontpage and the following that displays a question-mark and a link below it that states: help/ support.
In fact help on opensuse.org is artificially split into communicate and documentation both not being as straight forward as a simple big icon and the two words/help/support.
Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
I totally agree, that the help.o.o page is not easy to find when you come from the web. You have the same situation with news.o.o and users.o.o. Tat is pretty bad! Well, the front-page was made at a time, when opensuse.org had only a download-page, wiki and the Build Service. That's the reason, why e.g. help.o.o is not listed. I think, the easiest way to face this problem is a combo box on the fist page, which contains all sub-pages (like the language combo box at "discover it"). That would be a good workaround for a while. Any vetoes? I could do it in the next days. Cheers! Robert --- Robert Lihm, Graphics Designer - Build Service Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0 - rlihm@suse.de ____________________________________________________________ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ____________________________________________________________ SUSE - a Novell business --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Robert Lihm wrote:
I think, the easiest way to face this problem is a combo box on the fist page, which contains all sub-pages (like the language combo box at "discover it"). That would be a good workaround for a while.
very good idea... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Den Monday 12 November 2007 11:31:57 skrev Robert Lihm:
I totally agree, that the help.o.o page is not easy to find when you come from the web. You have the same situation with news.o.o and users.o.o. Tat is pretty bad! I think, the easiest way to face this problem is a combo box on the fist page, which contains all sub-pages (like the language combo box at "discover it"). That would be a good workaround for a while.
Any vetoes? I could do it in the next days.
I don't think it's enough to just have it on the "splash" (www.o.o). Couldn't we easily also add links to help.o.o, news.o.o and users.o.o in the "openSUSE-box" in the left pane of "normal" wiki pages (en.o.o)? (where there are already links to "get software", "openSUSE wiki" and "build software"). --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 12.11.2007, at 12:45, Martin Schlander wrote:
Den Monday 12 November 2007 11:31:57 skrev Robert Lihm:
I totally agree, that the help.o.o page is not easy to find when you come from the web. You have the same situation with news.o.o and users.o.o. Tat is pretty bad! I think, the easiest way to face this problem is a combo box on the fist page, which contains all sub-pages (like the language combo box at "discover it"). That would be a good workaround for a while.
Any vetoes? I could do it in the next days.
I don't think it's enough to just have it on the "splash" (www.o.o).
Couldn't we easily also add links to help.o.o, news.o.o and users.o.o in the "openSUSE-box" in the left pane of "normal" wiki pages (en.o.o)? (where there are already links to "get software", "openSUSE wiki" and "build software").
Yes , we will do this. That is, what the box is for :) I planed to do such thing when Franks is back at work (=> December) and we make some general technical changes on all o.o pages. May I find some time to make it earlier; no promise :)
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Robert --- Robert Lihm, Graphics Designer - Build Service Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0 - rlihm@suse.de ____________________________________________________________ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ____________________________________________________________ SUSE - a Novell business --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hello, on Montag, 12. November 2007, Robert Lihm wrote: [...]
Well, the front-page was made at a time, when opensuse.org had only a download-page, wiki and the Build Service. That's the reason, why e.g. help.o.o is not listed.
Seems it needs an update ;-)
I think, the easiest way to face this problem is a combo box on the fist page, which contains all sub-pages (like the language combo box at "discover it"). That would be a good workaround for a while.
Why a combo box with (somewhat) hidden links? I'd prefer to have normal, _visible_ links in the "openSUSE" box. Yes, they will take some lines, but we are talking about the main (and most important) navigation... Regards, Christian Boltz -- Ist doch ganz einfach. Windows arbeitet nach dem WYSIAS-Prinzip: What you see is Allgemeine Schutzverletzung! [Dieter Bruegmann in dag°] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 12.11.2007, at 13:24, Christian Boltz wrote:
Hello,
on Montag, 12. November 2007, Robert Lihm wrote: [...]
Well, the front-page was made at a time, when opensuse.org had only a download-page, wiki and the Build Service. That's the reason, why e.g. help.o.o is not listed.
Seems it needs an update ;-)
Yeah. ... :-/ I'm working right now on the merchandising shop for openSUSE. When this one is finished I take a look on the front page.
I think, the easiest way to face this problem is a combo box on the fist page, which contains all sub-pages (like the language combo box at "discover it"). That would be a good workaround for a while.
Why a combo box with (somewhat) hidden links?
I'd prefer to have normal, _visible_ links in the "openSUSE" box. Yes, they will take some lines, but we are talking about the main (and most important) navigation...
I'm frighten, that t would damage the (more or less) clear look of the page. But I can imagine to write under the "The openSUSE project is a worldwide community program sponsored by Novell that promotes the use of Linux everywhere." "Help News User Directory" in blue. I think, that's more usable.
Regards,
Christian Boltz -- Ist doch ganz einfach. Windows arbeitet nach dem WYSIAS-Prinzip: What you see is Allgemeine Schutzverletzung! [Dieter Bruegmann in dag °] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Cheers! Robert --- Robert Lihm, Graphics Designer - Build Service Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0 - rlihm@suse.de ____________________________________________________________ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ____________________________________________________________ SUSE - a Novell business --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Montag, 12. November 2007, Robert Lihm wrote:
Well, the front-page was made at a time, when opensuse.org had only a download-page, wiki and the Build Service. That's the reason, why e.g. help.o.o is not listed. I think, the easiest way to face this problem is a combo box on the fist page, which contains all sub-pages (like the language combo box at "discover it").
I am a really bad artist, yet I think the mockups show what I am trying to mediate, i.e. help being as easy as possible to find. A question-mark is somehow established as signal for help, so it should be part of whatever link is placed on the pages. http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7370/help1le5.png http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2346/help2sj5.png Even though they certainly need refinement, I think they are hardly beatable in terms of guiding the user to help, which should have the highest priority IMHO. Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister wrote:
this one seems good, the other less. in fact there should be somewhere a list of the opensuse domain names by se. may be simply at the bottom of the hub page (www) now there are * www * localized (en, fr, es...) * news * build * help * lists * ?? there should be a way to make difference between the help one can find inside the wiki and the help domain. also a complete study of the search engine is necessary. any search done on any opensuse domain should * give answers of the current domain first * add answers from the other domain also under preferably not using google :-). The main Google problem is the slow update of the indexes. opensuse indexes should be updated very often... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Dienstag, 13. November 2007, jdd wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
this one seems good, the other less.
So where would you place the help-button on the second frontpage and in a menu in order to have it accessible not only on the first two frontpages? Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister wrote:
On Dienstag, 13. November 2007, jdd wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7370/help1le5.png this one seems good, the other less.
So where would you place the help-button on the second frontpage and in a menu in order to have it accessible not only on the first two frontpages?
as I said, all the wiki is help... so the problem is different. May be all the upper left box should be modified to show only "opensuse domains" (drop down list), including help.opensuse.org jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Dienstag, 13. November 2007, jdd wrote:
as I said, all the wiki is help... so the problem is different. May be all the upper left box should be modified to show only "opensuse domains" (drop down list), including help.opensuse.org
A drop-down hides everything but one item, so that's not a good idea. I don't think the whole wiki is help as such. If that was true, there would not be the need for a link on any of the pages since all of the links on the first start-page lead to the wiki, i.e. following your argumentation, lead to help. Since the wiki as such is not the help a user is looking for, otherwise there would be no need for help.opensuse.org, a link to exactly that site and a button signaling help is needed to get the user started. Anything else is not as direct and obvious as it should be. Of course the search can be improved, but that's the second step. Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister wrote:
I don't think the whole wiki is help as such.
it is. what is a help in your mind? shouting "help"?? the help domain is only usefull for people wanting an other sort of indexing
would be no need for help.opensuse.org
there is a need for whatever kind of index users may want, if ever somebody wants to maintain it. I don't maintain help.opensuse.org nor use it, so I have no further advice of the utility of the page.
Of course the search can be improved, but that's the second step.
on my opinion it's a main one, the only I ever use... and mediawiki one is severely broken (not opensuse fault), google is better but slowly indexing the problem is not giving help, it is giving the help the user need, and there are so many possible entry points... keep in mind why google is so popular: most time the first or second entry is the relevant one... so any help index page must quote the other ones. AFAIK the upper right box is common to all the domains? if so, it could be titled "HELP, openSUSE ressources" and host all the domains (there are too many to keep in one box, don't forget this one is not localized - may be a drop down list could be) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-11-13 at 13:25 +0100, jdd wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
I don't think the whole wiki is help as such.
it is. what is a help in your mind? shouting "help"?? the help domain is only usefull for people wanting an other sort of indexing
As a user, I simply don't know how to find help for a particular problem in the wiki - unless somebody tells me the exact page, and then I bookmark it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHOZ7mtTMYHG2NR9URAgkOAKCLRJIRhUCFvrBlu+WDTiqKB756twCfSkva jYidYTY4149NAWKuD5qYpys= =KhbT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Tuesday 2007-11-13 at 13:25 +0100, jdd wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
I don't think the whole wiki is help as such.
it is. what is a help in your mind? shouting "help"?? the help domain is only usefull for people wanting an other sort of indexing
As a user, I simply don't know how to find help for a particular problem in the wiki - unless somebody tells me the exact page, and then I bookmark it.
I agree. However, I don't think ubunto system is better (I see tons of questions for help about ubuntu on my LUG mailing list). in fact, no system is ideal. I never said the wiki is ideal, but what mean "help"? nothing. all is a question on page content. The help domain page content may agree some people and the wiki some other, and google some other again. there are two different things: pages content and indexes. pages contents are manual, LfL, wiki, novell data base, sdb, mailins lists, forums, news groups, IRC... indexes are : wiki front page, wiki categories, wiki portals, wiki inexes, help domain, build search, wiki search, google... of course the list is not complete. we can share as many indexes as we can maintain, each will please a given group of users but we should not use too many page contents, because the real info is there and it's extremely difficult to sync several similar pages jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 13.11.2007, at 17:06, jdd wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-11-13 at 13:25 +0100, jdd wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
I don't think the whole wiki is help as such.
it is. what is a help in your mind? shouting "help"?? the help domain is only usefull for people wanting an other sort of indexing As a user, I simply don't know how to find help for a particular problem in the wiki - unless somebody tells me the exact page, and then I bookmark it.
I agree. However, I don't think ubunto system is better (I see tons of questions for help about ubuntu on my LUG mailing list).
in fact, no system is ideal. I never said the wiki is ideal, but what mean "help"? nothing.
all is a question on page content. The help domain page content may agree some people and the wiki some other, and google some other again.
there are two different things: pages content and indexes.
pages contents are manual, LfL, wiki, novell data base, sdb, mailins lists, forums, news groups, IRC...
indexes are : wiki front page, wiki categories, wiki portals, wiki inexes, help domain, build search, wiki search, google...
of course the list is not complete.
we can share as many indexes as we can maintain, each will please a given group of users
but we should not use too many page contents, because the real info is there and it's extremely difficult to sync several similar pages
jdd
In general, we should differ between help/support for 'advanced users'/ experts and newbies. These two groups need different help in a different way! Currently we serve just the expert, what is bad! help.o.o is AFAIK just a hlep-page for "How to get help". That is a good fist step :) Take a look on Apples-Suppot Pages. They are not perfect! But they have some interesting ideas too. About the "openSUSE"-Box. The idea behind the box is, that all o.o pages are listed there. And I don't think, that they should be localised, because ... imagine that you end up as a Czech on a ... e.g Japanese openSUSE-Wiki Page where everything -including the openSUSE Box- is localised. You are lost :) So, as I wrote before, I will add the other o.o-pages to these box as soon as possible. The front-page needs to be reviewed. Till I do this the http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7370/help1le5.png draft shows more or less what I had in mind in my last post. I'm going to do this ASAP, too. That's IMHO a valid workaround.
-- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
So far ... :) Robert --- Robert Lihm, Graphics Designer - Build Service Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0 - rlihm@suse.de ____________________________________________________________ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ____________________________________________________________ SUSE - a Novell business --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Dienstag, 13. November 2007, jdd wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
I don't think the whole wiki is help as such.
it is. what is a help in your mind? shouting "help"?? the help domain is only usefull for people wanting an other sort of indexing
It is everything, including help-content, with far too many informations on a single page and thus no help when looking for help. Otherwise there would be no issue, since people already have found help when looking at en.opensuse.org, which is not the case. Google is also help, yet not helpful if a user comes to the site and does not search. If you search that does not mean that everybody does and it certainly does not mean there is no need for a big icon and help/support link on each second start-page. Please conduct the experiment I outlined and measure whether people will find help quicker with my approach or via your search-line, which is already there. Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Dienstag, 13. November 2007, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Please conduct the experiment I outlined and measure whether people will find help quicker with my approach or via your search-line, which is already there.
Obviously one should not tell people to search when conduction the experiment, because they should pick their own means. If there is a big icon and text and the search, they should pick on their own which one they use. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
jdd -
Litkevich Yuriy -
Martin Schlander -
Nikolay Derkach -
Rajko M. -
Robert Lihm -
Sven Burmeister