page naming and translations
Hello :-) The translation guide (I beg, not verified) say that the names of the pages should be translated. This is nearly impossible if we need a consistent localized wikis. This is a proposal to cope with this. * the need of translating the name localized wikis are done mostly for people not able, not willing or not wishing to read the english one. Such people will probably be upset to see english title bars. Don't forget that the page name is also the main title of the page (and displayed so). So we need to translate the name. * the need to keep the english name It"s mostly for easy the interwiki links process. If any name is translated, interwiki links become a one by one control process. If ever an, said, spanish page is done from the english one _after_ I already translate the french one, I will never know and so fail to link it. However the solution is pretty simple: It's to keep the english name for a page only containing a redirect. There are two ways of doing so. first create the english name page, then move (rename) it, the redirect is done automatically. or second if the localized page is already there, create the english name page and fill it with #REDIRECT [[localized page]] Then in all pages, translated or not :-), add [[en:englishname]] [[sp:english name]] [[de:... [[fr:... (all the localized wikis) so as soon as the link will be created it will be activated in the sidebar. Is not active, it will be shown as a red "see also" link at the bottom of the page, wich if not really disturbing. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 09:37 schrieb jdd:
However the solution is pretty simple:
It's to keep the english name for a page only containing a redirect.
There are two ways of doing so. first create the english name page, then move (rename) it, the redirect is done automatically. or second if the localized page is already there, create the english name page and fill it with
#REDIRECT [[localized page]]
Then in all pages, translated or not :-), add
I described it in the translation guide (the interwiki one, thanks to pflodo for merging it to one article). --- The name of the Page should be the same as in the English master wiki, this makes the handling of interwikilinks much easier. Because the pagename is also the headline for the article you should move it after editing the page to the right name in your language. Just click at the move button at the end of the page. This will allow to access the page with the new name and the name the "master" wiki uses. --- The disadvantage is that we have a lot of links in the wiki, but imho it's worth to do it this way. -- with kind regards, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Lasarsch, Subsystems SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg martin.lasarsch@suse.de ---------------------------------------------------------------------- simply change to www.suse.de
Martin Lasarsch wrote:
Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 09:37 schrieb jdd:
However the solution is pretty simple:
It's to keep the english name for a page only containing a redirect.
There are two ways of doing so. first create the english name page, then move (rename) it, the redirect is done automatically. or second if the localized page is already there, create the english name page and fill it with
#REDIRECT [[localized page]]
Then in all pages, translated or not :-), add
I described it in the translation guide (the interwiki one, thanks to pflodo for merging it to one article). --- The name of the Page should be the same as in the English master wiki, this makes the handling of interwikilinks much easier. Because the pagename is also the headline for the article you should move it after editing the page to the right name in your language. Just click at the move button at the end of the page. This will allow to access the page with the new name and the name the "master" wiki uses. ---
The disadvantage is that we have a lot of links in the wiki, but imho it's worth to do it this way.
nice. I add for details only thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
I add the template {{IW|page name}} as well jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
Hello! Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 11:11 schrieb Martin Lasarsch:
--- The name of the Page should be the same as in the English master wiki, this makes the handling of interwikilinks much easier. Because the pagename is also the headline for the article you should move it after editing the page to the right name in your language. Just click at the move button at the end of the page. This will allow to access the page with the new name and the name the "master" wiki uses. ---
The disadvantage is that we have a lot of links in the wiki, but imho it's worth to do it this way.
Two questions concerning the above. 1. What to do, if I create a page that does not exist in the English wiki. 2. What to do, if I did not move the page, because I do not understand the above at that time? Delete the translated page, create it again with the English name and move it to the translated name? Another question: "Every page you translate should use interwiki links to the other translated pages. To make interwiki links, please add to the Template:<pagename>_Translations page the interwiki links:" Than it states that one should link to the other sites by [[de:Paagename]], should that not be [[:de:Pagename]]? Sven
Hi! Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 12:13 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
Another question: "Every page you translate should use interwiki links to the other translated pages. To make interwiki links, please add to the Template:<pagename>_Translations page the interwiki links:"
Than it states that one should link to the other sites by [[de:Paagename]], should that not be [[:de:Pagename]]?
Oh, I think I just got it. In the template [[de:Pagename]] which links to the "dead" translated page with English title and that one then links to the one with German title? Sven
Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 12:13 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
Hello!
Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 11:11 schrieb Martin Lasarsch:
--- The name of the Page should be the same as in the English master wiki, this makes the handling of interwikilinks much easier. Because the pagename is also the headline for the article you should move it after editing the page to the right name in your language. Just click at the move button at the end of the page. This will allow to access the page with the new name and the name the "master" wiki uses. ---
The disadvantage is that we have a lot of links in the wiki, but imho it's worth to do it this way.
Two questions concerning the above.
1. What to do, if I create a page that does not exist in the English wiki.
This will happen. And maybe there is no need for an english page, like special provider settings which are only usefull in your country. I think this is no static rule, but imho it will save us (everybody who is working on the wiki) a lot of work when everybody try to work this way. Suggestion: If you|someone wrote an article and think this is also usefull for other languages but you don't want to translate it to english|whatever by yourself, just send a mail the this list.
2. What to do, if I did not move the page, because I do not understand the above at that time? Delete the translated page, create it again with the English name and move it to the translated name?
Moving the page 2 times should work.
Another question: "Every page you translate should use interwiki links to the other translated pages. To make interwiki links, please add to the Template:<pagename>_Translations page the interwiki links:"
Than it states that one should link to the other sites by [[de:Paagename]], should that not be [[:de:Pagename]]?
if you use [[de:page]] it will add an interwiki link on the left side, if you use [[:de:page]] you can make a link to a page in the de wiki inside the text without a link on the left side. So, without : is the right interwiki link. -- with kind regards, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Lasarsch, Subsystems SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg martin.lasarsch@suse.de ---------------------------------------------------------------------- simply change to www.suse.de
Martin Lasarsch wrote:
Moving the page 2 times should work.
no, don't. the better way is noted on the wiki http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Translation_Guide#Interwiki_Links basically create the page with the english name and fill it with #REDIRECT [[local name]] If you think a new local page deserves translating, add the {{IW}}, this will give links in the sidebar to nonexistent other langage pages and lead somebody to translate it :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 12:46 schrieb jdd:
Martin Lasarsch wrote:
Moving the page 2 times should work.
no, don't.
right, this is dirty :-) -- with kind regards, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Lasarsch, Subsystems SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg martin.lasarsch@suse.de ---------------------------------------------------------------------- simply change to www.suse.de
Martin Lasarsch wrote:
Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 12:46 schrieb jdd:
Martin Lasarsch wrote:
Moving the page 2 times should work. no, don't.
right, this is dirty :-)
it simply don't works, mediawiki is a complicateed beast :-) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Redirect#What_is_a_redirect.3F jdd (far from mastering it :-) -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 13:10 schrieb jdd:
Martin Lasarsch wrote:
Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 12:46 schrieb jdd:
Martin Lasarsch wrote:
Moving the page 2 times should work.
no, don't.
right, this is dirty :-)
it simply don't works, mediawiki is a complicateed beast :-)
hmm .. i tried it before posting, works for me ... -- with kind regards, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Lasarsch, Subsystems SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg martin.lasarsch@suse.de ---------------------------------------------------------------------- simply change to www.suse.de
On Tuesday, 21. February 2006 12:46, jdd wrote:
If you think a new local page deserves translating, add the {{IW}}, this will give links in the sidebar to nonexistent other langage pages and lead somebody to translate it :-)
I really fail to see the advantage if any of this IW template solution: - Language links are now duplicated in the left bar on several pages, eg Download, Product_Highlights - This macro has to be manually added to every translation of the page within en.opensuse.org instead only once to Template:<foo>_Translations - It adds link to pages in other wikis which don't exist and even worse MediaWiki doesn't display with color that they don't exist, eg it links now to es:Product_Hightlights which doesn't exist. Bye, Steve
Stephan Binner wrote:
On Tuesday, 21. February 2006 12:46, jdd wrote:
If you think a new local page deserves translating, add the {{IW}}, this will give links in the sidebar to nonexistent other langage pages and lead somebody to translate it :-)
I really fail to see the advantage if any of this IW template solution:
- Language links are now duplicated in the left bar on several pages, eg Download, Product_Highlights
this can happen in two situations: * the page is done by transclusion of other pages, the problem is the same with any way of interwki use * the naming convention was not respected byt the translators and they added manually an interwiki link. it's very easy to clic on the nonexistent link, and create the english named page as a redirect to the langage one, as should be to follow the guide, then deleting the extra interwiki link. I had myself a long time before understanding the interest of having english named pages in the french wiki and need to edit some of my own pages.
- This macro has to be manually added to every translation of the page within en.opensuse.org instead only once to Template:<foo>_Translations
I don't know that one, may be the two can be merged
- It adds link to pages in other wikis which don't exist and even worse MediaWiki doesn't display with color that they don't exist, eg it links now to es:Product_Hightlights which doesn't exist.
it's not a bug, it's a feature. most of the actual users don't even know there is a translated wiki, they go straight to opensuse.org. with these links they know such a localized wiki exists. If the page is not translated yet, they are encouraged to do so, and anyway if they come from the en page they read english and can return to the english page. I think it's the better way to advertise the localized wikis. anyway, we should work to enhance the templates (and it would be nice to fill the templates page), because it's the better way to have an coherent wiki. French one: http://fr.opensuse.org/Modèles English one: http://en.opensuse.org/Templates (and no translations template in it) For example, here, as soon as a new localized wiki is created, is enough to edit the template to have it advertised on all the translated pages but don't think I wan to oblige you to anything. we must discuss things and enhance from the others work sincerely yours jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On 2/21/06, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
If you think a new local page deserves translating, add the {{IW}}, this will give links in the sidebar to nonexistent other langage pages and lead somebody to translate it :-)
I don't like this. I think that the interlink links should only exist for pages that are translated, and should never point to non-existent and if I had my way, not even to unfinished translations. I do understand that there is an issue keeping all the interwiki links up to date, but if the IW template was the answer, it should just be hardcoded into the left column for everypage, and I don't think that should happen. Wikipedia solves this by using wikibots. This would be a much better solution. ie a script checks if there is a translated page for each english page, and updates the page with an interlink. I will not remove your edit of the Translation Guide, but I don't think it should work this way. Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin.
Peter Flodin wrote:
On 2/21/06, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
If you think a new local page deserves translating, add the {{IW}}, this will give links in the sidebar to nonexistent other langage pages and lead somebody to translate it :-)
I don't like this. I think that the interlink links should only exist for pages that are translated, and should never point to non-existent and if I had my way, not even to unfinished translations.
this an english point of view :-() We must make the localized wikis live. At present time there only _one_ address given anywhere, that is opensuse.org. so there are many ways to cope with this, the template is the only one I can manage myself. else could be _hudge_ langages links on the en front page or automatic routing by browser langage consideration. If incomplete translations should not be linked, not at all one could be, wiki moves all the time, translations are never finished.
I do understand that there is an issue keeping all the interwiki links up to date, but if the IW template was the answer, it should just be hardcoded into the left column for everypage, and I don't think that should happen.
not all the pages needs a translation link
Wikipedia solves this by using wikibots. This would be a much better solution. ie a script checks if there is a translated page for each english page, and updates the page with an interlink.
and how the script can know that? I know little about wikibots, but I beg they are server admin work??
I will not remove your edit of the Translation Guide, but I don't think it should work this way.
I proposed the IW here with little answer so go on, as usual. but this must be discussed (as we do now) and if possible by all the translators. I understand en wiki english speaking users have little use if this :-) - notice that this give them the category of the pages at least translated once Bear in mind that the en wiki will still be the "international" one and the other ones deserve some help, jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 01:06:15PM +0100, jdd wrote:
this an english point of view :-()
We must make the localized wikis live. At present time there only _one_ address given anywhere, that is opensuse.org.
so there are many ways to cope with this, the template is the only one I can manage myself.
else could be _hudge_ langages links on the en front page or automatic routing by browser langage consideration.
Why OR? Use the AND statement. ;-) Redirection by language if you go to opnensuse.org and www.opensuse.org, but not if you go to fr or de.opensuse.org Links on other languages confirm wiki at the left bottom
not all the pages needs a translation link
They should. Ideally all pages should be translated to all languages. It will most likely never be achieved, but it should be the goal.
Wikipedia solves this by using wikibots. This would be a much better solution. ie a script checks if there is a translated page for each english page, and updates the page with an interlink.
and how the script can know that? I know little about wikibots, but I beg they are server admin work??
Most likely, but a very clean solution and workable once it is implemented. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
Wikipedia solves this by using wikibots
I see this. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_bot do you think it's a good solution? is it usable here (the wikibot operator needs writing rights on all the wikis, if I understand well) I can make tests if you think so and if I have rights sorry to ask so much, but we need to solve the problem ASAP for the localized wikis to go on, thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
jdd wrote:
Wikipedia solves this by using wikibots
I see this.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_bot
do you think it's a good solution?
to go on, I set up a wiki page here http://en.opensuse.org/May_we_use_wikibots where you can find links and give your advice. it seems the script can be run with ordinary rights (no sysop nor admin), but once run, a great bunch of pages will be writen, so we should all be ok to do this :-) even if we don't run the script now, knowing we will do in the future will impact the work of the translators, so the answer can't wait too long :-( jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On 2/23/06, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
jdd wrote:
Wikipedia solves this by using wikibots
I see this.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_bot
do you think it's a good solution?
to go on, I set up a wiki page here
http://en.opensuse.org/May_we_use_wikibots
where you can find links and give your advice. it seems the script can be run with ordinary rights (no sysop nor admin), but once run, a great bunch of pages will be writen, so we should all be ok to do this :-)
even if we don't run the script now, knowing we will do in the future will impact the work of the translators, so the answer can't wait too long.
Some facts: 1. I have never run, written or operated a wikibot :-) 2. Wikibots can't be stopped, other than blocking accounts used by them. Anybody with a user account can automate the action of HTTP requests from their machine to operate the wiki. I think we should as a group have these guidelines: 1. All wikibots should run in an interactive mode until proven reliable. ie a human confirms any edit action. 2. All wikibots should run under their own account eg "jdd bot", with their user page describing what it does, who runs it, when, etc. This means actions can be easily tracked (and reverted). Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin
Peter Flodin wrote:
1. I have never run, written or operated a wikibot :-) 2. Wikibots can't be stopped, other than blocking accounts used by them.
as long as I understand, the wikibots are run on the client machine, so yes the wikibot can't be stopped (can be only by the people that launch it) Anybody with a user account can automate the action of HTTP
requests from their machine to operate the wiki.
I think so
I think we should as a group have these guidelines: 1. All wikibots should run in an interactive mode until proven reliable. ie a human confirms any edit action.
anyway, they always runs under they owner's control (that is I I run the bot, I can stop it any time, simply with control C :-) - they are console apps)
2. All wikibots should run under their own account eg "jdd bot", with their user page describing what it does, who runs it, when, etc. This means actions can be easily tracked (and reverted).
this is the normal way. but easily reverted, I'm not sure, if not by writing an own bot :-( interwiki.py write many pages, revert by hand should be very difficult (or get a backup, but this delete all the recent work. however I don't mind to run a home programmed bot :-)) but the wikipedia one. the bots can be run from a letter, so we could try "Z" :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
Hi! Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 12:36 schrieb Martin Lasarsch:
Suggestion: If you|someone wrote an article and think this is also usefull for other languages but you don't want to translate it to english|whatever by yourself, just send a mail the this list.
Ok, maybe there could also be a category, like the ...for deletion.
2. What to do, if I did not move the page, because I do not understand the above at that time? Delete the translated page, create it again with the English name and move it to the translated name?
Moving the page 2 times should work.
So I go to en.opensuse.org and have to move Updating_KDE_and_other_software_via_YaST to de:Updating_KDE_and_other_software_via_YaST which makes the page available at de.opensuse.org and I can move it from there to KDE_und_andere_Software_mittels_YaST_aktualisieren? Because KDE_und_andere_Software_mittels_YaST_aktualisieren already exists I cannot do the last step and will have to add #REDIRECT [[localized page]] manually?
if you use [[de:page]] it will add an interwiki link on the left side, if you use [[:de:page]] you can make a link to a page in the de wiki inside the text without a link on the left side.
So, without : is the right interwiki link.
Got that, yet there are some issues with this and inconsistencies. Interwiki states: --------------------------- The name of the Page should be the same as in the English master wiki, [...] Every page you translate should use interwiki links to the other translated pages. [...] [[en:Download]] [[de:Download]] [[es:Download]] [[fr:Download]] -------------------- If I have a look at the template used for the Documentation-page I see the following. ---------------- {{Translations|[[文档|Simplified Chinese]] <br />[[NL-Documentatie|Dutch]] <br />[[Documentation|English]] <br />[[JA-Documentation|日本語]] <br /> [[HU-Dokumentacio|Magyar]] <br />[[PT-Documentation|Português]] <br />[[PT-BR-Documentacao|Português-Brasil]] <br />[[TR-Documentation| Turkish]] [[de:Dokumentation]] [[fr:Documentation]] [[es:Documentación]] }} ------------ So one of the main pages contradicts the translation-guide which got me really confused because I had a look at existing pages to see, how it is done properly. Sven
Hi again! Am Dienstag, 21. Februar 2006 13:13 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
So I go to en.opensuse.org and have to move Updating_KDE_and_other_software_via_YaST to de:Updating_KDE_and_other_software_via_YaST which makes the page available at de.opensuse.org and I can move it from there to KDE_und_andere_Software_mittels_YaST_aktualisieren?
Because KDE_und_andere_Software_mittels_YaST_aktualisieren already exists I cannot do the last step and will have to add #REDIRECT [[localized page]] manually?
This is really confusing, so I got it wrong again. Steps are: - Put [[de:Updating_KDE_and_other_software_via_YaST]] on the English page - Go to de.opensuse.org, create Updating_KDE_and_other_software_via_YaST - Move that one to the German title. I hope I got it right this time. :( Sven
On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 12:36:18PM +0100, Martin Lasarsch wrote:
This will happen. And maybe there is no need for an english page, like special provider settings which are only usefull in your country.
Please don't make the mistake by connecting a language to a country or a country to a language. I live in Belgium and the official langages are Dutch, French and German. Yet I prefer to read in English and have an qwerty amd not an azerty keyboard. In an ideal situation each page is translated into each and every language. I understand that is a huge undertaking, but that should be the goal. That must be the target we aim for. First perfection and then world domination. If possible in that order. ;-) houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
participants (6)
-
houghi -
jdd -
Martin Lasarsch -
Peter Flodin -
Stephan Binner -
Sven Burmeister