Hello, I have made a quite significative -still not so visible- change to the front page at http://fr.opensuse.org. The french page being much less seen than the english one, it's a good place to test (I already asked the users they advice, will see the answer-and yours, I can go back). to summarise, I don't change anything in the layout. the goal was to make the hole page fit in 800x600 screen I reduce the number of sidebar entries (and reworked accordingly the content of the menu pages). I also add an image of the 10.1 box in the upcomming events place :-) I also decided not to quote any other langage wiki in my pages (for example the IW template-interwiki links), because I'm unable to follow the growth of the wiki number, and I don't read some of these strange pages (strange for me, of course). On the contrary I quote the english page and I set on the french front page an info box advertising the fact that many new wikis exists. Note that on the right part of the screen, I only report things having a meaning for french readers. I think more and more than an important part of the community work can only made in english and so on the english wiki. it's of little use to translate all the pages on build system, bugzilla stuff or development participation, because nobody who don't at least read english can participate to these things. Localised wikis are very good for beginners, end user documentation, tips and tricks,download... and to speak bask about front page, I really would like to have a wikipedia like main page for all wikis (with all these little flags on a nice lizard), but I'm definitively NOT an artmaker, sorry :-))) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 05:49:16PM +0200, jdd wrote:
to summarise, I don't change anything in the layout. the goal was to make the hole page fit in 800x600 screen
That is the wrong goal. I know you have been going on how SUSE should be workable with older PC's. The goal should howver be to make it workable in every size. Due to this, I now have a left to right movement as well.
I reduce the number of sidebar entries (and reworked accordingly the content of the menu pages).
The `Page de Garde` links to itself, why? There are not enough links in the Utiliser part
I also add an image of the 10.1 box in the upcomming events place :-)
Wich most likely is the cause of the left to right movement I am able to do now. <snip>
Note that on the right part of the screen, I only report things having a meaning for french readers.
French as a language or as a country? If you say as a language, then you asume e.g. Belgians, Swiss and Canadians (among others) are not interested in any other things or are too stupid to understand them. Please let them decide for themselves.
I think more and more than an important part of the community work can only made in english and so on the english wiki.
It should be the goal from the community to be one community, not 650 small ones devided by either Language or country. See below.
it's of little use to translate all the pages on build system, bugzilla stuff or development participation, because nobody who don't at least read english can participate to these things.
Then the pages need to be translated. The only workable solutions is to work, at least for development, in one langyuage. That language is English.
Localised wikis are very good for beginners, end user documentation, tips and tricks,download...
Not if parts of it are on one language and others are on another.
and to speak bask about front page, I really would like to have a wikipedia like main page for all wikis (with all these little flags on a nice lizard), but I'm definitively NOT an artmaker, sorry :-)))
As a person living in Belgium, these flags are the most stupid invention ever. Flags are countries, langages are not. Will you have a Belgium flag? If so, to what language will it point? If not, why don't you give the Belgians their own flag? I am sorry, but I think it is in whole a bad idea, especially to put it on the frontpage at this stage. It would have been better to put it on the designated page for this discussion. openSUSE should have one look and part of that look is the (now bad) layout of the frontpage. If feel that localisation should be about the langage and the language alone. Making each langage look different will not help. The English version should be a central point of translation. Meaning that when somebody changes something on the "en" pages, oothers should translate it. When somebody translates something on a "fr" page, this change should be done as soon as possible to the "en" pages, so that other translations have the information as well. I admire your will to change things, I do not like the direction you want to go. Please understand that this is not a flame. It is just my point of view. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
houghi wrote:
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 05:49:16PM +0200, jdd wrote:
to summarise, I don't change anything in the layout. the goal was to make the hole page fit in 800x600 screen
That is the wrong goal. I know you have been going on how SUSE should be workable with older PC's. The goal should howver be to make it workable in every size.
? I don't see what you mean. sidebar is of fixed height. the english one fills more than my 20" screen, and is not at all resizable - it's mostly unreadable.
Due to this, I now have a left to right movement as well.
what do you mean is a "left to right movement"? the "right" stuff was there before...
I reduce the number of sidebar entries (and reworked accordingly the content of the menu pages).
The `Page de Garde` links to itself, why?
"Page de garde" is the french for "home page", so on the home page it links to itself, as it always did (it's the same in english page)
There are not enough links in the Utiliser part
why? we are not to create links only to take place, there is room for one if necessary
I also add an image of the 10.1 box in the upcomming events place :-)
Wich most likely is the cause of the left to right movement I am able to do now.
sorry, I don't understand
<snip>
Note that on the right part of the screen, I only report things having a meaning for french readers.
French as a language or as a country? If you say as a language, then you asume e.g. Belgians, Swiss and Canadians (among others) are not interested in any other things or are too stupid to understand them.
no. I report french speaking events - for the others, the english page is there. Please let them
decide for themselves.
if they offer to tranlate, why not?
I think more and more than an important part of the community work can only made in english and so on the english wiki.
It should be the goal from the community to be one community, not 650 small ones devided by either Language or country. See below.
I have the need to work with two langages - there are people not speaking english, we have to cope with this - the non-speaking community will lack things as long as automatic translation is not trustable (and it is not, I tried). Bugzilla wil never be in french, we know that.
it's of little use to translate all the pages on build system, bugzilla stuff or development participation, because nobody who don't at least read english can participate to these things.
Then the pages need to be translated. The only workable solutions is to work, at least for development, in one langyuage. That language is English.
? what do you mean? it's exactly what I said
Localised wikis are very good for beginners, end user documentation, tips and tricks,download...
Not if parts of it are on one language and others are on another.
complete bi(multi?)-directional translation is not likely to be done. It would ask for much more power than we can afford
As a person living in Belgium, these flags are the most stupid invention ever. Flags are countries, langages are not. Will you have a Belgium flag? If so, to what language will it point? If not, why don't you give the Belgians their own flag?
do you speak "belgium"? or "français"? words are the most stupid... (same phrase as your)
I am sorry, but I think it is in whole a bad idea, especially to put it on the frontpage at this stage. It would have been better to put it on the designated page for this discussion.
I didn't change the layout of the page, only part of the content of the sidebar, and did you notice this sidebar changes from time to time? without anybody answered?
The English version should be a central point of translation. Meaning that when somebody changes something on the "en" pages, oothers should translate it.
do it :-) When somebody translates something on a "fr" page, this
change should be done as soon as possible to the "en" pages, so that other translations have the information as well.
this is not to happen anytime soon :-(((
I admire your will to change things, I do not like the direction you want to go. Please understand that this is not a flame. It is just my point of view.
I wish it could be possible, but it's not the actual french wiki state is a three month work 2 hours a day and it's not nearly done as well as I would like. translation is not a goal in itself. The goal is to attract as many people as we can, with the best doc we can. the real problem is number. we are a very little community but here we are far from my original post... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 07:52:14PM +0200, jdd wrote:
? I don't see what you mean. sidebar is of fixed height. the english one fills more than my 20" screen, and is not at all resizable - it's mostly unreadable.
I think it is readable. It needs a lot of work, that is true. Especially the order might become important. The fact that you might need to scroll might be an issue on the layout.
Due to this, I now have a left to right movement as well.
what do you mean is a "left to right movement"?
A scrollbar at the bottom. Seems to be gone now, Strange
The `Page de Garde` links to itself, why?
"Page de garde" is the french for "home page", so on the home page it links to itself, as it always did (it's the same in english page)
OK. Clear.
There are not enough links in the Utiliser part
why? we are not to create links only to take place, there is room for one if necessary
Not one, many more. I already have given an example of what I think should be there.
Wich most likely is the cause of the left to right movement I am able to do now.
sorry, I don't understand
It seeems to be gone. I do not know why.
no. I report french speaking events - for the others, the english page is there.
And here I disagree. Why should a French speaking person not be interested in an event in an other language? Or a German speaking or whatever language.
It should be the goal from the community to be one community, not 650 small ones devided by either Language or country. See below.
I have the need to work with two langages - there are people not speaking english, we have to cope with this - the non-speaking community will lack things as long as automatic translation is not trustable (and it is not, I tried).
Not automated, but better organized. You have one central language. To wich everything will be translated and from wich wich everything will be translated. So if a Chinese person adds something on a chines page, we need to have a system in place that translates it to English, so that others can translate it from English to e.g. French.
? what do you mean? it's exactly what I said
Great. Then there we agree. :-)
Localised wikis are very good for beginners, end user documentation, tips and tricks,download...
Not if parts of it are on one language and others are on another.
complete bi(multi?)-directional translation is not likely to be done. It would ask for much more power than we can afford
That is however the only way to keep all languages on the same level. Otherwise you will have one article that is great in French, another that is great in German and some pages that have people working on the same content next to eachother.
As a person living in Belgium, these flags are the most stupid invention ever. Flags are countries, langages are not. Will you have a Belgium flag? If so, to what language will it point? If not, why don't you give the Belgians their own flag?
do you speak "belgium"? or "français"? words are the most stupid... (same phrase as your)
I do not speak "Belgium" because it is not a language. That is the whole point of why flags are not a good idea to use on a Wiki that is directed at languages. I speak some French, but it is only my fourth language. It is not possible to interchange langages and countries. I live long enough in Belgium to understand the problem
I didn't change the layout of the page, only part of the content of the sidebar, and did you notice this sidebar changes from time to time? without anybody answered?
The pages look different enough to me. The left sidebar has much less information, there is suddenly a picture in the right sidebar. There is different information and the information in the middle is bold. Also there is a different Linuxtag picture. Even tough the same colours and some basic layout is used, it is clear that the content is different with some layout changes. For me this translates as to that there are two different sorts of openSUSE. A fr one and all the rest.
The English version should be a central point of translation. Meaning that when somebody changes something on the "en" pages, oothers should translate it.
do it :-)
I already do that by placing my changes on the "en" page. You would not want be translating to any language, believe me.
When somebody translates something on a "fr" page, this
change should be done as soon as possible to the "en" pages, so that other translations have the information as well.
this is not to happen anytime soon :-(((
So what can we do to make this possible or easier? I would love to get an email when somebody does a change on http://en.opensuse.org/Making_a_DVD_from_CDs or on http://de.opensuse.org/Erstellen_einer_DVD_aus_den_CDs or on http://en.opensuse.org/JA-Making_a_DVD_from_CDs even though I can't read that last one. Other people might then also be warned when a change is done on the page and linked pages and thus get to implement these changes if they can
I admire your will to change things, I do not like the direction you want to go. Please understand that this is not a flame. It is just my point of view.
I wish it could be possible, but it's not the actual french wiki state is a three month work 2 hours a day and it's not nearly done as well as I would like.
translation is not a goal in itself. The goal is to attract as many people as we can, with the best doc we can.
Yes, and this goes for all languages, not only French. That is the reason changes to the frontpage should be uniform and not just done on one language. I believe it is a bad idea to change one language and see if anybody likes it and then later change it back and forth. I think a frontpage is completely the wrong place to experiment. To me it looks un-organised and it would scare me away, rather then be attracted to the whole project. It shows how devided we are, whereas identical and only a translated frontpage will show a unified coherent front. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
houghi wrote:
A scrollbar at the bottom. Seems to be gone now, Strange
I didn't change at all the width of the page, anyway
Not one, many more
desagree. good info is little info, is not you get sunk
no. I report french speaking events - for the others, the english page is there.
And here I disagree. Why should a French speaking person not be interested in an event in an other language? Or a German speaking or whatever language.
why not also japanese events? if you don't undeerstand english, why did you bother english meetings? but of course the choice of events is not that simple, I'm open to ideas - english front page is not always up to date. linuxtag image, I was first to have one :-)
Not automated, but better organized. You have one central language. To wich everything will be translated and from wich wich everything will be translated.
idealistic :-) - english will certainly be central, but translators are not that a number :-(
So if a Chinese person adds something on a chines page, we need to have a system in place that translates it to English, so that others can translate it from English to e.g. French.
if it's done, it's good, but nobody can have it if he don't do it himself
That is however the only way to keep all languages on the same level. Otherwise you will have one article that is great in French, another that is great in German and some pages that have people working on the same content next to eachother.
life is like this :-)
So what can we do to make this possible or easier? I would love to get an email when somebody does a change on
same for me. This exists in mediawiki but seems disabled on opensuse
Yes, and this goes for all languages, not only French. That is the reason changes to the frontpage should be uniform and not just done on one language.
you wont find linuxtag on others languages frontpages. I set it up because linuxtag is near France and I ope some of our readers could go.
It shows how devided we are, whereas identical and only a translated frontpage will show a unified coherent front.
such thing, for now, only show how unable we are of doing things - how many month front page discussion for nothing? this is a problem. just keep a mess because it's here is not an answer. lokk and feel is a graphic chart, this must be kept jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 09:22:48PM +0200, jdd wrote:
Not one, many more
desagree. good info is little info, is not you get sunk
Not always. You need correct information, not just a little.
why not also japanese events? if you don't undeerstand english, why did you bother english meetings?
Indeed why not. You have no idea if the reader understands English or not. You just asume they do not.
but of course the choice of events is not that simple, I'm open to ideas - english front page is not always up to date. linuxtag image, I was first to have one :-)
For me it is easy. All of them.
That is however the only way to keep all languages on the same level. Otherwise you will have one article that is great in French, another that is great in German and some pages that have people working on the same content next to eachother.
life is like this :-)
I do not think the smiley is apropriate.
So what can we do to make this possible or easier? I would love to get an email when somebody does a change on
same for me. This exists in mediawiki but seems disabled on opensuse
So to SUSE: Please enable it.
you wont find linuxtag on others languages frontpages. I set it up because linuxtag is near France and I ope some of our readers could go.
I think it is a pity that it is not on all pages.
such thing, for now, only show how unable we are of doing things - how many month front page discussion for nothing?
I know and that still does not mean to just storm and start changing the frontpage of one language. Eiter all or none. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
Hello, I am one who uses the language in so limited location.
I would love to get an email when somebody does a change on http://en.opensuse.org/Making_a_DVD_from_CDs or on http://de.opensuse.org/Erstellen_einer_DVD_aus_den_CDs or on http://en.opensuse.org/JA-Making_a_DVD_from_CDs even though I can't read that last one.
How about making a rule that: One should edit at first the original(English) page if he would make a major change of the content. We have yet not so many people to edit JA pages and we have, as is the case for Japanese, an implicit rule to make an exact translation of EN page without any modification(I assure JA-Making_a...is an exact one!). But if someone would make a drastic change only in JA page without noticing to anyone, it would be a serious problem. No one but Japanese could know if his description is right or wrong. noniko If my next reply is late, please excuse me! I live at night if you live in the daytime.
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 11:26:40PM +0900, noniko wrote:
Hello, I am one who uses the language in so limited location.
I would love to get an email when somebody does a change on http://en.opensuse.org/Making_a_DVD_from_CDs or on http://de.opensuse.org/Erstellen_einer_DVD_aus_den_CDs or on http://en.opensuse.org/JA-Making_a_DVD_from_CDs even though I can't read that last one.
How about making a rule that:
One should edit at first the original(English) page if he would make a major change of the content.
If that is possible, that would be the best. The disadvantage is that many times the person who can do the change does not know any English or enough Enlish to do the changes. It would be a pity to loose the knowledge of these people. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
Hello, today I went to fr.opensuse.org. I don't see any strange difference in design between fr and en pages. I read some French though being poor at writing. It's interesting and instructive to see how the technical terms are translated into French. By the way,
One should edit at first the original(English) page if he would make a
major change of the content.
If that is possible, that would be the best. The disadvantage is that many times the person who can do the change does not know any English or enough Enlish to do the changes.
It would be a pity to loose the knowledge of these people.
Ah, yes I can't deny that disadvantage. There are many people also in Japan who have much knowledge on computer but just be very shy to explain it in English.
only a sysop can modify the front page (and I'm glad of this :-) .
As for the front page and some important pages, I'm glad they are protected, too.
Italians say "traduttore tradittore" (the translator is a treator).
It's probably because Italians have a long history of translation. I respect for that :)
However I asked once here how Novell is verifying the locilized wikis are really on scope (vandalism is always a great problem with wikis), but didn't had an answer.
In Japan recently I got contact with Novell Japan staff. They are interested in the current situation in translation and localization , so we're going to have a "sashi-de-hanasu (face to face) " discussion on it next week. noniko If my next reply is late, please excuse me! I live at night if you live in the daytime.
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:23:03AM +0900, noniko wrote:
Hello, today I went to fr.opensuse.org. I don't see any strange difference in design between fr and en pages.
There are much less links on the left and an extra picture on the right, To me that means that there is less (or different, wich is even worse) information. For me not a good thing, but it seems I am the only one who cares about it and/or thinks that each first page should have the same content and layout. So this will be my last comment on it (unless others suddenly plan to get into the discussion) <snip>
In Japan recently I got contact with Novell Japan staff. They are interested in the current situation in translation and localization , so we're going to have a "sashi-de-hanasu (face to face) " discussion on it next week.
Great. Perhaps some SUSE people here can give you some pointers and extra information on whom to contact internally at SUSE. That way they might get use of the tools available for only SUSE/Noevell people. I am just guessing here. Perhaps Sonja can give some pointers. Ain't it great. openSUSE people going to talk to Novell about translation. I love it.
If my next reply is late, please excuse me! I live at night if you live in the daytime.
The same for me. Only I realy live at night. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
Am Mittwoch, den 03.05.2006, 03:38 +0200 schrieb houghi:
If my next reply is late, please excuse me! I live at night if you live in the daytime.
The same for me. Only I realy live at night.
houghi
vampire? sun allergy? newlywed neighbours? or are you a connoisseur of the famous Brussels nightlife? c'mon, come out of the closet, let us know! -- Andreas
vampire? sun allergy? newlywed neighbours? or are you a connoisseur of the famous Brussels nightlife? c'mon, come out of the closet, let us know!
My reason is simple: I am live in the far east. This is what I regret, it's difficult for me to attend a real time net meeting (chat, IRC...) in the world-wide community. When my husband had been a business trip to Wiesbaden (wow, it's just the place of the LinuxTag now!), I woke up 5 o'clock in the morning to chat with him before sleeping. And I don't have sun allergy....I like Solaris as much as SUSE, ha ha. noniko
Am Mittwoch, den 03.05.2006, 15:26 +0900 schrieb noniko:
My reason is simple: I am live in the far east.
Sunny & hot California here.
This is what I regret, it's difficult for me to attend a real time net meeting (chat, IRC...) in the world-wide community.
I admit I didn't attend any irc-meeting yet either :(
And I don't have sun allergy....
Come to California and you might develop one ;) Gruß Andreas
Great. Perhaps some SUSE people here can give you some pointers and extra information on whom to contact internally at SUSE. That way they might get use of the tools available for only SUSE/Noevell people.
I am just guessing here. Perhaps Sonja can give some pointers.
Ain't it great. openSUSE people going to talk to Novell about translation.
I love it.
Thanks for the helpful information, houghi. The most thing I'm afraid of is separated or disconnected multiple entrances of openSUSE for Japanese users. I think not bad of multiple entrances, but they must be connected each other. Otherwise, Japanese users are confused where to get or post the information on openSUSE. The Novell Japan staff has the same thinking and we are going to colaborate in the activity in Japan. I will report the detail after we have the meeting. This Novell Japan staff I have known for years. He gave me a stuffed Geeko when I last visited a Novell event. noniko
noniko wrote:
The most thing I'm afraid of is separated or disconnected multiple entrances of openSUSE for Japanese users. I think not bad of multiple entrances, but they must be connected each other. Otherwise, Japanese users are confused where to get or post the information on openSUSE.
think of goals, not image. The goal is to bring with us the more people we can. so localized wikis are aimed at all the guys that don't read english or don't like to see english rule the world. So get in the wiki all the stuff you think Japan folks needs, don't ask at first if this will fit also english ones. think the biggest localized wiki (german) has only 650 members, when the en one (older, of course) have more than 20.000. Of course this don't mean that the interesting info of localized wikis don't need to be translated in english, it would be much better is almost all the pages could be the same in all langages, but may be the english subscribers can do the job? with as little as 210 members, the french wiki needs badly to grow I don't know what is the member limit for a wiki to live, but certainly much more than that - and I hope SUSE willl sell more than 200 french boxes, if not they could not afford to makes them. so _today_ local work is priority
The Novell Japan staff has the same thinking and we are going to colaborate in the activity in Japan. I will report the detail after we have the meeting.
This Novell Japan staff I have known for years. He gave me a stuffed Geeko when I last visited a Novell event.
this is very good. In France Novell quite desapear and it's a shame. They used to have a facility near my home, but it's closed :-( jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
Hi, jdd.
think of goals, not image. The goal is to bring with us the more people we can.
so localized wikis are aimed at all the guys that don't read english or don't like to see english rule the world.
So get in the wiki all the stuff you think Japan folks needs, don't ask at first if this will fit also english ones.
Right. Japanese SUSE users are increasing, but never enough. A high school student, friend of mine recently told me, she is taught at school "Linux is a CUI-based application for server, not recommended for beginners." We should let more people how SUSE is confort to use.
think the biggest localized wiki (german) has only 650 members, when the en one (older, of course) have more than 20.000.
Huge numbers! As for Japanese members, I don't know. Perhaps many Japanese is reading, but only a few of them make any action.
Of course this don't mean that the interesting info of localized wikis don't need to be translated in english, it would be much better is almost all the pages could be the same in all langages, but may be the english subscribers can do the job?
It's a pity many Japanese communities or user's groups are closed, saying "Sorry, only in Japanese". Many activities and discussions are not known in the world. I wish the localized wiki be at the same time a local base for sending informations to the world. noniko
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 09:12:27AM +0200, jdd wrote:
think of goals, not image. The goal is to bring with us the more people we can.
No, The goals of the openSUSE project are: * Make SUSE Linux the easiest Linux distribution for anyone to obtain and the most widely used open source platform. * Provide an environment for open source collaboration that makes SUSE Linux the world's best Linux distribution for new and experienced Linux users. * Dramatically simplify and open the development and packaging processes to make SUSE Linux the platform of choice for Linux hackers and application developers. http://en.opensuse.org/Project_overview http://fr.opensuse.org/Project_overview The first one has many more languages it is translated to then the French one. Both on the left and on the right. The same with other languages.
so localized wikis are aimed at all the guys that don't read english or don't like to see english rule the world.
That is obvious.
So get in the wiki all the stuff you think Japan folks needs, don't ask at first if this will fit also english ones.
Indeed. See also that there is a process that this will be brought to other languages.
think the biggest localized wiki (german) has only 650 members, when the en one (older, of course) have more than 20.000.
Where do you get that number 650?
Of course this don't mean that the interesting info of localized wikis don't need to be translated in english, it would be much better is almost all the pages could be the same in all langages, but may be the english subscribers can do the job?
If they can read Japanese, Yes, please. Or a French person or whomever. <snip>
so _today_ local work is priority I would start with translating the available information and only later start adding information.
houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
houghi wrote:
Where do you get that number 650?
specialpage:statistics jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 06:00:50PM +0200, jdd wrote:
houghi wrote:
Where do you get that number 650?
specialpage:statistics
On what are these stats based? e.g. am I calculated in these pages as well? I did a change on http://fr.opensuse.org/D%C3%A9clarer_un_bug (Completely by accident did I stumble on that page. I was not looking for anything specific.) houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
Hi,
Where do you get that number 650?
specialpage:statistics
It seems interesting. Can I search also for Japanese members? I only grab the JA-team members, that is, only six! But there might be someone who doesn't write his name in Translation_Team page but giving his help in edit. Or people just making use of JA-docs. I'd like to know how many they are, if I could. noniko
noniko wrote:
Hi,
Where do you get that number 650?
specialpage:statistics
It seems interesting. Can I search also for Japanese members? I only grab the JA-team members, that is, only six! But there might be someone who doesn't write his name in Translation_Team page but giving his help in edit. Or people just making use of JA-docs. I'd like to know how many they are, if I could.
the special page is only worth on independant wikis (and the statistics are broken, however the number of members is good - one can have the list) but in your case it's pages inside the former wiki. The only way I see is to look at the history of the pages and count the authors jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On 5/3/06, houghi
For me not a good thing, but it seems I am the only one who cares about it and/or thinks that each first page should have the same content and layout. So this will be my last comment on it (unless others suddenly plan to get into the discussion)
It is my belief that it is stated that the English wiki is the project master, and all "important" pages should be kept in synch by the language maintainers. I know Jdd has previously expressed his own concerns over how all the language maintainers can be trusted to do the right thing. I think that it is crucial that all the wikis keep the same look and structure, but I am not sure that anybody is actually proposing that they shouldn't be. Some experimentation must be allowed, if what Jdd has done is a good thing, then we can incorporate it, otherwise I think it should be reverted. It is a Wiki, it is dynamic, that's part of it's power. Anything changed can be undone. Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin
Peter Flodin wrote:
On 5/3/06, houghi
wrote:
It is my belief that it is stated that the English wiki is the project master, and all "important" pages should be kept in synch by the language maintainers.
true. but kept in sync mean nothing important must lack. and I very concerned by the fact (better say my sentiment) that most important pages of the english wiki are a mess :-(( - the dowload page being the worst example. with the arrival of the 10.1 stable, we must anticipate some affluences and make the things smarter.
I think that it is crucial that all the wikis keep the same look and structure, but I am not sure that anybody is actually proposing that they shouldn't be. Some experimentation must be allowed, if what Jdd has done is a good thing, then we can incorporate it, otherwise I think it should be reverted.
+1
It is a Wiki, it is dynamic, that's part of it's power. Anything changed can be undone.
absolutely. But in fact very few people dare do so, and with ages, pages become worst because small patches are coming. of course any change hurts somebody (sorry :-() but not changing is dying :-() jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
noniko wrote:
One should edit at first the original(English) page if he would make a major change of the content.
only a sysop can modify the front page (and I'm glad of this :-). SUSE employees are very busy making the new 10.1 and it's understandable they have litle time to give to the wiki (having still "project milestone" as RC3 on front page is not that good). May be they should considere nominating a non employee sysop for the english wiki (if it's already the case, forgive me)
case for Japanese, an implicit rule to make an exact translation
Italians say "traduttore tradittore" (the translator is a treator). An exact translation is a dream :-) anyway I don't think I made a major change, only a cosmetic one.
noticing to anyone, it would be a serious problem. No one but Japanese could know if his description is right or wrong.
can't happen for the some blocked pages. However I asked once here how Novell is verifying the locilized wikis are really on scope (vandalism is always a great problem with wikis), but didn't had an answer. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 06:44:21PM +0200, jdd wrote:
noniko wrote:
One should edit at first the original(English) page if he would make a major change of the content.
only a sysop can modify the front page (and I'm glad of this :-).
Looking on the change done on the fr.* page it also is obvious that there is no communication between these sysops. Sorry, but I feel very strongly that the content on each page is also part of the corporate identity og openSUSE. <snip>
May be they should considere nominating a non employee sysop for the english wiki (if it's already the case, forgive me)
If the fr.* individual change is a direction, then please no.
case for Japanese, an implicit rule to make an exact translation
Italians say "traduttore tradittore" (the translator is a treator). An exact translation is a dream :-)
As openSUSE is more a technical one, it is however much better to achieve. e.g. makeSUSE explaining can be pretty easily translated. Translating should be converting a *meaning* from one language to another, not just words. That is the hard part.
anyway I don't think I made a major change, only a cosmetic one.
That can be a HUGE change when it comes to web pages. Look at http://houghi.org with Firefox. The do 'View, Page Style, Newer' ;-) houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
houghi wrote:
anyway I don't think I made a major change, only a cosmetic one.
That can be a HUGE change when it comes to web pages.
for me, a cosmetic change is a change nobody see when looking at the page two feets away :-) that is a small change. Changes that are made in the right column are cosmetic (and frequent as they must be) in this meaning using flags as front page or raja layout, or going from green to blue _is_ a hudge change (and was made for some suse distro: box is green, boot screen is now blue...) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 07:14:52PM +0200, jdd wrote:
for me, a cosmetic change is a change nobody see when looking at the page two feets away :-)
I can see the difference beteen the en and fr frontpage from much farther away. :-/ By removing many main links, you have made it in a different page just the same css file.
that is a small change. Changes that are made in the right column are cosmetic (and frequent as they must be) in this meaning
I think we agree that both the right and the left must be changed (and the middle. I just extremely strongly feel that these changes must be done on all languages at the same time and not just by fr.* or any other singular language. I am not even discussing the fact if these changes are good or not. I am discussing the fact that the fr.* pages are now different from the rest and that is wrong. I rather have all pages with the ugly layout of links then 5 with the good and one with the wrong layout.
using flags as front page or raja layout, or going from green to blue _is_ a hudge change (and was made for some suse distro: box is green, boot screen is now blue...)
The changes done on fr.* are huge in my opinion. As long as all boxes are the same and all boot screens are the same, I see no problem. If all boxes are green, exept for the German one, then I have an issue with the boxes. Uniforimty is something that is important and people associate that with strenght. That uniformity is now gone. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
participants (5)
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Andreas
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houghi
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jdd
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noniko
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Peter Flodin