On 21:52 Tue 03 Aug 2010, Rajko M. wrote:
On Tuesday 03 August 2010 12:29:45 Brandon Philips wrote: ...
What are the advantages of a Portal/box model compared to a single page with sections?
I have read the Help:Portal and Help:Concept pages. The one possible advantage suggested in those pages is that Portals can be automatically generated. But, Portal:Distribution and Portal:Project look manually generated.
It is self explanatory that portal in entry point to the topic that stands after colon. Namespace is used so that we can direct traffic (search) where we want without much hassle.
Does using a Portal template require appending a Portal: namespace? What advantage does that bring? Can't you just search by all pages using the template just as easily?
Despite outcry for links and search, old wiki was mess and it was hard to find anything there. If some article wasn't in bookmarks it did not exist. There is long list of problems: unguessable titles, lack of links in articles, almost no use of categories, no common style, no maintainers to articles, etc.
I agree alot of pages on the Wiki were a mess, yes, but others like the Kernel pages were fine.
Portals are not entirely automatically created. Navigation there is created from categories, so it is updated as soon as some article is added to category. There is template that new contributors can use to get basic layout. The rest is up to their needs, we provide lego pieces they can combine it the way that suits their needs.
It is missing explanation what layout is preferred and why, but that will come.
Ok, at this point I don't need new lego pieces on the Kernel page. I will wait until I see how other Portals get assembled before converting to a Portal layout.
I moved from being a user to a developer by getting in over my head little by little. Exposing someone to new information by serendipity is OK.
And how does a Portal solve this issue?
You have ability to give beginners directions (but that you can do that in any article), what Portal makes different is the name. Users with some experience with Wikipedia, will expect general overview of the topic as that what they know from there.
I have never seen a Portal: Wikipedia article. Do you have an example? Most of the technical articles I have read follow the same flow: overview, define terms, technical details. Just as I am trying to do with the Kernel page. Examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computing) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color
It is redundant and thus adds no self-discoverable information. That was my thesis when I started this thread. ... Is there the will to change it though?
Would you change name when you see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Flying_monkeys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_Zealand_Wikipedians'_notice_board
This namespace looks to contain tools and pages used by the community of people similar to the "openSUSE wiki team". It would be fine if the openSUSE: namespace was used for these types of meta-wiki pages. And... it seems we agree on that, quote from later in this email:
That is another point to keep basic introduction in Main, or Portal (depends on size), and advanced in SDB. The openSUSE is really meant to keep meta information, not technical articles, but as you noticed we: 1) learning on the go, 2) don't have enough time to take care of each article.
Lets agree that the openSUSE namespace should not have development pages like the Kernel explanation. :) SDB is a poor name for things like the Kernel git article because it has nothing to do with support. The wiki and all service on opensuse.org are for all openSUSE people including users, support people, marketers, developers and so on. Creating namespaces that try to divide up these often very fuzzy lines is difficult and can create a ping-pong effect for some information that sits on the fuzzy line.
Did an announcement of this discussion go out to opensuse-announce? Could you send me the archive URL? Perhaps my mailer dropped it.
http://old-en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org#New_wiki_on_the_way That should be enough :)
It wasn't. :( Please announce major changes on announce in the future.
I don't have to contribute to the Wiki. I could just throw a README.Kernel in our kernel-source.git instead. It would take less time, I would have a URL I could count on and a simple document format I could quickly edit.
And not many will ever see that README.
That isn't true. The Kernel page URL is pasted into emails and bugs several times a day. The people that need this information aren't discovering the page on their own and are following a link I and other Kernel team members provide. Where the information is housed doesn't matter, I just need to count on it being there in the format I expect. Obviously, I want it to be housed on the Wiki as that brings some advantages.
Now when it is public everybody and his mother find better ways, but it is kind of late.
It is never too late to fix something. Lets not be self-defeating.
Is there a mediawiki special page that shows all incoming internal links to a page? Maybe a plugin could be written/installed to warn on page moves if there are existing internal links so that the mover puts up a REDIRECT.
Page move does put redirect automatically. Problem is that using old titles as redirects should be minimized otherwise we will have very soon all nice separation of content bypassed and search will give same useless results as it did in the old wiki.
But the user deleting the REDIRECT should have a warning of what he will break... this mistake seems very common on the new wiki.
Kernel is a good page, but too long for web readers (casual readers).
What? A webpage that is _too_ long? The user has full control over the scroll bar. I have never complained about a Wikipedia page that provides me with too much information. I skim, read the bits I need, and ignore the rest.
It is good for casual readers up to "openSUSE Kernel of the Day". After that is too technical for them and kind of short as introduction to hacking.
Then they stop reading, no one gets hurt. Curious users will stumble through and perhaps learn something. Our goal should not be to design a safety bubble for users on the wiki. Warning them of dangers is reasonable.
It is a problem to present information that requires some troubleshooting knowledge to casual reader without warning and explained prerequisites: zypper install -r KOTD kernel-default Someone can try that. Copy'n'paste is one of the first actions that people learn, far before they know how to undo kernel that doesn't boot.
Good point, I will add a warning to those instructions. But, if KOTD doesn't boot I want to hear about it! The KOTD today is the openSUSE Kernel of the future. Thanks, Brandon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org