[opensuse-usability] A Usability Based Challenge!
Hi. I've lurked here for quite a bit (I was advised to subscribe to this list on another forum in response to the challenge posted below) and haven't really seen much activity, so I just thought I'd toss in my 2c. To be honest I have not used Suse that much - I've seen it in action and used it for a short time, but nothing in depth. I've mainly used Ubuntu (I seriously don't know what all the fuss is about), Mepis, PCLinuxOS (Quite like it) and a few other random distro's. My concern is based around the general feeling and attitudes of the Linux community at large, rather than centered around any one distro. Anyway... I first decided to try out Linux a couple of years ago (I've known of it for much longer) as I run an Internet cafe and would have quite liked to avoid the Microsoft tax. I tried a few distro's for a short time - FC4, Mepis and Ubuntu (warty). At the end of the trial I weighed the various benefits of all platforms and decided to stick with Windows, as none of the distros offered enough advantages to make it worth the extra time and had many significant limitations (mainly with regard to usability). I am not 'Pro Microsoft', nor am I 'Pro Linux', I am 'Pro whatever gets the job done best'. I decided to put a post on the Ubuntu forums detailing the reasons why I was not going to use it and the limitations I found. As a programmer myself that is the sort of information I want to know. The reasons people are using my software are nice, the reasons people aren't are nicer. Unfortunately I was promptly flamed to a crisp by a vocal percentage of the forum regulars who refuse to hear a bad word about Linux. Even saying something as simple as 'Why not make .deb's double clickable?' would get a hail of negative responses. Excuses were made for everything - nobody would recognize one single point as valid. I tried a few other forums, all with the same results. Bringing up issues with usability always ended the same way. I in fact found it impossible to have any constructive discussion of usability issues without it turning into a flamewar. My eventual conclusion is that constructive criticism of Linux simply doesn't happen in an open forum, that there is no place set aside for it to happen (no Linux distro I have yet seen has a 'tell us what you think' forum) and pretty much no effort is made to open a (honest) dialogue with end users about what they like/dislike. The only place close to this is bugzilla, which doesn't handle usability issues, only programming bugs. From my experiance using Linux (and OSS software in general) the software is generally powerful, stable, yet usually with a sub-par GUI and pretty much no attention paid to usability. I do not approve of people signing up on Linux forums to bash the OS but I feel the community in general is so defensive any comments no matter how benign or well said are seen as attacks - possible because they see it as an attack on the FOSS ideology - and any comment made is seen in a 'Linux vs Windows' capacity, even when only talking about Linux with Windows being irrelevant to the discussion. It always gets twisted to X vs Y. As a result of this no public discussions of Linux' pitfalls are allowed to exist resulting in the developers being essentially insulated from the end users. Criticisms and comments from the people using the software are not sought after and more often than not actively suppressed, and the only form of feedback that works is bugzilla - which will never address usability issues. So, anyway, after that longer-than-planned rant, my challenge is this: Find a place on the Internet that constructive criticism of Linux actually takes place where you can discuss caveats in the OS and talk about usability and what can be done to improve it in a calm and civilized manner. It's a harder task than you'd think. And if no such discussions take place how are any developers ever meant to know what the main concerns/problems that the general userbase is having? I just think that the open sharing of ideas is just as important as the open sharing of code, yet it practically never happens. I'd also like to contribute my expertise (graphic design & usability) as would many other people yet even discussing the topic in public is pretty much prohibited. Hey, I just reckon if you let (and encourage) people talk about what they would like, many good ideas may come of it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Actually a problem really exists, and of the places to look is OpenUsability project... Anyways, I feel that usability gets better every passed year... (KDE, OpenOffice, FireFox, ...) everything gets better. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 24 March 2007 12:45, Andrew Laignel wrote:
Hi Andrew, the general problem of usability is simple if one looks only do certain task with whatever is on hand. The problem is arising if one tries to define usability for broad sample of tasks, tools and skills. There is no such thing as user friendly and usable without defined subject, as both terms cover all actions, all tools, and all skill levels. You can imagine that in all kind of actions you have such that have opposite goals, use tools that have to help us achieving such goals and are used with very different set of skills. Classic example is CLI vs. GUI. Myth: CLI is not user friendly, GUI is. This depends on task. When we want speed, to use as many CPU cycles for job that has to be done, what we use? As little other running tasks as possible which means among other things no GUI. If we have to wade trough zillion options in programs that we need, but we have no time to learn every function that we might need, than we need GUI that gives us menus and we can choose functions that we need. We still have to know what function will perform, but that is much lesser number of items to remember. Another example is CLI, alone. Myth: Long options in CLI are user friendly, short not. The reality here is the same as with GUI. If I know exactly what options to use, I use always short, but if I have to remember many that I don't use often, than long are easy to remeber. Both have the same idea about the number of options. Myth: To many options are not user friendly. Truth is again, depends on what you do. Some letter, from time to time doesn't need a load of options in one office suite writer program, it actually needs few descent templates and that is all, but for professional writer that doesn't cut. So, we can discuss usability, but tell us example, what are premises and what are the goals, and we can start. Just stating that in general Linux lacks usability features, or Windows safety, or some other OS something else is from the onset doomed to be pointless exchange of mythical stories without much logic in it. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Thank you for all your replies. I think I am still a bit jaded by the larger Linux communities *cough* Ubuntu *cough* who refuse to ever admit to a problem. I plan on giving Suse a fair try, and I'll let you know what I think. I am a massive supporter of OSS but as I said I will use whatever software is best for the job, rather than using software out of ideological reasons. I'll try to explain some of the usability issues I have been having and some of my thinking. I run an Internet cafe, so I see and help people of all skill levels interacting with computers all day. If someone can do something the wrong way, they will. I see what people find hard, and difficult. It gives a good insight into how average people use a computer. Firstly, GUI vs CLI. CLI will never be 'easier' than a GUI. It may be quicker, it may be more resource efficient but it's not easier. The benefit that a GUI environment brings is discoverability. In a GUI environment (provided its a well made one) you should be able to achieve your goals without knowing how to work the system prior to this. With a GUI you can sit down in front of pretty much any software on any platform and be able to work it out in a few minutes. It provides a visual metaphor (icons, windows) to make things easy. Since you are limited to clicking, all options you need are on the screen and if you look, you can find them. CLI's are entirely unintuitive, undiscoverable and not user friendly. The only way you'll know how to do anything in a CLI is by reading the manual first. Also since you can have no idea of the scope of the abilities of the CLI you need to read the *entire* manual before you know all the options. Unlike a GUI which enables you to discover and learn as you go, a CLI is a brick wall to you, no matter how clever. Imagine going back in time and putting Archimedes in front of a GUI based system (say OSX (Greek edition :)) and then put him in front of a CLI on a Linux distro. I would bet large sums he would be whizzing about on OSX (or even KDE/Gnome) after a few hours, where with the CLI system he'd probably still be sitting at a blinking cursor. That's not to say CLI's are useless, or crap. They have many applications and are extremely useful (I use them, and scripts, a lot), but they are certainly not 'user friendly', and should never be presented to a user as such. I used to use Ubuntu as a recovery CD to rescue files off of people with botched copies of Windows. Where I used to have to remove the HDD and plug it in to another machine, I could now put in a Linux CD and just copy it across the network. Great! The Ubuntu team has decided though to not only stop automounting any drives, but to also remove the GUI mount tools from the LiveCD (it may be fixed now). I tried to rescue someones HDD using this 'new' CD, here's a rough guide (of how I remember) to how it went...
So I was unable to get the files off of the HDD onto the network share. I tried a few other things (chmod'ing the ./media dir) but to no avail. In the end I just downloaded Knoppix, which worked. After a few weeks I stumbled across the solution. I didn't use the umask=0222 switch, which sets the access permissions. I suppose I should have scoured the mount command manual but I was in a hurry. If there was a GUI mount system available (there used to be) I would have had no problems. Again though, I do not think CLI systems are bad, only that they should be presented 'as well as' rather than 'instead of' a GUI. They are for advanced users who do the same tasks repeatedly, and are incredibly useful, but they are a pain in the neck to learn and use the first few times, even for someone who already has plenty of CLI experience. It's ridiculously easy to shoot yourself in the foot. I personally still use the CLI to do all my searches on Windows boxes as I hate the search feature so much (want an example of a bad GUI, there's one). I wouldn't even think of suggesting to a casual user to do the same though - it's easier for me because I know how, but everything is easy once you know how. Secondly, I do not feel that there is much advancement when it comes to GUI's in FOSS software. Improvements are always in added functionality and stability, very rarely is the GUI focused on as a 'lets redesign this to be as user friendly and discoverable as possible.' Generally any improvements in this department are only minor. I can understand why though, given the amount posted to Bugzilla. For example the Ubuntu GUI has not changed significantly since its launch. It is also just a carbon copy of the Windows 98 interface, split onto two bars. Apart from the desktop switcher and log-off button it's feature identical. You can make it look like the Windows interface in about 5 minutes. The real giveaway is the quicklaunch bar. It has FireFox(Internet Explorer), Show Desktop and Evolution(Outlook). This is exactly the same configuration as Windows. The thing is I have always doubted Microsoft's wisdom of adding a POP based email client in such a prominent position, given the widespread use of webmail. It makes even less sense on a LiveCD where all your settings go when you reboot. It would make much more sense to add a shortcut to the console, or synaptic there instead. The only reason for it to be a mail client is thats what it is on Windows. Not that I have any problem with copying (there is no reason not to have a good feature just because someone else thought of it first), it just it shows the lack of innovation in the GUI arena. It's not that the GUI is horrible, it's just not particularly great, and no effort seems to be committed to improving it. It seems 'good enough' is good enough. This is true for a large majority of the FOSS software I have tried. There are exceptions, of course, but as a general rule I do not see much effort put into GUI development on FOSS software - I think largely because nobody ever really says anything about it. I always link this article by ESR about CUPS when talking about usability - http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html The points he brings up are exactly what I mean. If I was to post that exact same article on a Linux forum I would be torn to shreds. I think curing problems such as the ones he listed for CUPS are of paramount importance for FOSS to gain a foothold, yet progress in that direction still seems glacial. Usability is often seen as a joke, something to be despised, or even just a myth. The surprising thing is despite the glaring problems he pointed out, nobody else before him said anything. I am assuming that people had been putting up with CUPS for years before this point. What I would like to see is an open forum (not necessarily a web one) for discussion on OSS usability issues. A set of recommendations could then be drawn up for the software (with GUI mockups, descriptions of functionality) that the developers could then see and take on board - essentially do the usability testing for them. Anyway I certainly think that discussion never hurts. I am going to download Suse and try it out tonight. I'll try to share my thoughts about it tomorrow. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 26 March 2007 06:18, Andrew Laignel wrote: ...
Note: Average people are not the only computer users.
Firstly, GUI vs CLI. CLI will never be 'easier' than a GUI. It may be quicker, it may be more resource efficient but it's not easier.
Note: Easier is word describing something relative to something else.
The benefit that a GUI environment brings is discoverability.
It is the very reason for existence of GUI.
That is possible for relative simple tasks. Take as an example image processing. Simple home photo enhancement it possible to learn in few minutes, but if one has to produce professional looking image that will be included in presentation, than knowledge about photography and digital processing alone is subject of long studies.
Text writing?
For the first time, even GUI is not that user friendly. I can tell that as I still remember my first contact with GUI. By that moment I was experienced computer user, and moving mouse was fun, but nothing was there to tell me about click, double click, click and drag, etc. I had to read the book first.
I guess he'll be faster than I was, but he would look for manual too.
User friendly you use as "new user friendly", and the scope is discovering abilities of the software. ...
It is also ridiculously easy to hit the finger instead of nail, but hammer is usefull tool for what is designed. ...
Sigi answered about current trend in SUSE. I can add that FOSS software is created mostly by programmers. They know how to add functionality, but they have no interest and skills to research usability. BTW you can see that the same is happening with documentation. ...
Exactly, but that is everywhere in the life. People listen carefully someone with authority in the field.
See above. Many people are aware that their word means little and they don't want to spend time writing something that will make them only trouble.
Recommendations are good idea, but they have to be usable too ;-) Developers have a lot to read and learn in their field, in order to stay current, so just put recommendations and let them find the way won't work. There must be someone that will have time to read recommendations and warn developers that certain functionality might be better applied in different way.
-- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Andrew, Usability in the OpenSource environment seems to be a science of it's own and your statement reminds me of an article by Nichols & Twidale -- The Usability of Open Source Software. http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue8_1/nichols/ The text will provide a better understanding in which situation/environment usability discussions take place in the OS development process.
At the moment, we do not know much in detail about the developers and the users of openSUSE. So we try to get information via our "Online Survey Project", the openSUSE 10.2 online questionnaire was only the first step to collect real data and will be available soon. Perhaps this and other information will us enable to create clear defined primary (and/or) secondary Personas. I think, the challenge will be to combine the "normal user view" with the "Geek/Sysadmin user view" because the openSUSE is the base for Server and Desktop development. To implement the general use of the Personas into the OS development process will be another project ;) Greetings! Sigi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Siegfried Olschner wrote:
I have to say I really agree with that article. I am far more interested in Usability and interface design than programming (although I am a programmer), but the problem I always found was the method of getting involved. My contributions are always viewed as unimportant and there are far too many toes to step on, especially considering improving for usability usually involves massive UI overhauls. I hope that's changing now though! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 24 March 2007, Andrew Laignel said:
I'm prejudiced against forums, so I don't believe it's possible to have any constructive discussion on them. They are just too attractive for kids and idiots. And *buntu, as flavour-of-the-month (still), will have most of the fanboys and zealots. Mailing lists have a somewhat better signal-to-noise ratio, especially if they belong to slightly older and less fashionable distros. So, let's see some informed discussion (In a separate thread, it goes without saying ;)). Will -- Desktop Engineer Interfaces and Applications Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Alexey Eremenko -
Andrew Laignel -
Rajko M. -
Siegfried Olschner -
Will Stephenson