Installer UX Ideas.

Jyllian Marie Thibodeau

16 May 2007 16 May '07

18:20

I was talking with Brian about which information we'd like to collect from the usability tests, and anticipating the various personas that might come to take the test (and, eventually, possibly use the installer). One such persona involves a low-to-medium experience user who is typically a Windows user. This person may or may not have installed Windows or Linux in the past, but is most likely to depend on the system guessing sane defaults, and may hit a usability snag if they don't. This is fine, if the system does indeed guess correctly, the only involvement required (and likely the most complicated interaction they'll faced) from them during the install would probably be from the partitioner (which I know we're working to improve). The Windows installer in particular glosses over the partioning, as its default involves using your whole hard drive as a single partition. I was trying to figure out how to synergize the sort of supportive, generally-non-technical install that this person would need with the sort of hands-on, tiny-detail install that a more advanced user might need or want. One idea for a compromise I came up with would be a screen at the beginning of the install, with a series of checkboxes to choose those components that you wanted to use during the install. These components can range from "Tweak Hardware", or "Install Additional Packages" to "Set Theme" -- and, short of a disaster, only those options which are selected will be presented to the user. For a custom install option, we could even have some of the more likely ones pre-selected." I include "Set Theme", because, particularly for the nontechnical user, customization (which, in my opinion, also includes the smooth installation of additional software via a nice package management system, but this is a different issue) is a big part of what makes them feel like they "own" their system. The sooner a user feels "at home" after an installation, the better. Ideas? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Show replies by thread

Benji Weber

16 May 16 May

21:36

On 5/16/07, Jyllian Marie Thibodeau wrote:

...

I was talking with Brian about which information we'd like to collect from the usability tests, and anticipating the various personas that might come to take the test (and, eventually, possibly use the installer).

One such persona involves a low-to-medium experience user who is typically a Windows user. This person may or may not have installed Windows or Linux in the past, but is most likely to depend on the system guessing sane defaults, and may hit a usability snag if they don't.

There's also this travesty of a screen. http://news.softpedia.com/images/reviews/large/opensuseinstallguide-large_01... Which breaks the "keep clicking next" path of least resistance. Instead the user is forced to make the choice of desktop environment which he/she will probably not understand, and the descriptions do not help. One of the examples of how stupid Novell politics have removed the sensible KDE default and ease of install that SUSE used to have. </rant> _ Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser

17 May 17 May

01:10

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jyllian Marie Thibodeau wrote: [...]

...

One idea for a compromise I came up with would be a screen at the beginning of the install, with a series of checkboxes to choose those components that you wanted to use during the install. These components can range from "Tweak Hardware", or "Install Additional Packages" to "Set Theme" -- and, short of a disaster, only those options which are selected will be presented to the user. For a custom install option, we could even have some of the more likely ones pre-selected."

But one can hardly skip the partitioning step. I do believe that just screwing the person's windows partition is worse than presenting a partitioning window. OTOH, problem is that configuring the partitioner is a highly technical task (in the scope of the audience you're targeting), most probably don't really know what partitions and filesystems are in the first place (they just know about the stone age C:, D:, ... - at best). Not sure the current automatic partitioning options do the trick. I somehow have the feeling there should be something in-between. Giving options such as choosing between ext3 and reiserfs, or creating a swap or not, is definitely a bad idea (just go for ext3, even if it's often worse than reiserfs, and don't create a swap at all if memory is

...

=1GB). Most Windows users have a cracked copy of Partition Magic though, so having a GUI where they can drag the partition sizes (without having to jump through hoops to select the partition type, the filesystem type, filesystem options, etc...) should make most of them feel at home (sort of).

I really wonder whether partitioning with Logical Volumes shouldn't be the default. It definitely helps a lot once the user lacks disk space and wants to give his SUSE some more. Typically, most Windows converts will dual-boot and have no idea at all on how much disk space they need for Linux. More specifically, they're used to Windows, which is just totally different (installation is minimal, barely any applications installed, and then most apps take huge amounts of disk space). IIRC (been a while I did a fresh install) the partitioning comes before the software selection. Maybe the opposite would be more appropriate, as the partitioner would know how much disk space is needed in order to install the packages and/or patterns the user has selected (+ some more space, depending on what can be resized). Not necessarily trivial to determine an algorithm here but well.. Furthermore, maybe the package/pattern selection could be skipped altogether in "newbie mode" -- just install KDE, firefox + thunderbird, an IRC client (with a .desktop on the.. Desktop to connect to #suse on irc.freenode.net to get interactive help from the community), and possibly OpenOffice.org (although even that should be skipped once we have a decent and easy to use interface to install stuff). Present a choice of "installation modes" really soon (possibly right after choosing between "installation"/"upgrade"/"repair"), with no more than 3 options, explain those options in the selection screen and have different workflows depending on that. [x] Linux newcomer (mmmh.. needs a better denomination) [ ] Intermediate [ ] Expert ? (and explain what configuration operations will be available for each "mode") Clearly, the less options, the better. And installing packages later on is a non-issue on Linux anyway. It's just that openSUSE+SLED need an interface that's easier to use [to install packages]. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGS6t2r3NMWliFcXcRAt66AJ9ZT6SSPAXX34F9ozzead6sNuJuqgCgggbs ATmdLlZEoDAX5C+2uzbMi94= =5uCI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Mohammad Bhuyan

04:36

...

Not sure the current automatic partitioning options do the trick. I somehow have the feeling there should be something in-between. Giving options such as choosing between ext3 and reiserfs, or creating a swap or not, is definitely a bad idea (just go for ext3, even if it's often worse than reiserfs, and don't create a swap at all if memory is

...
=1GB).

...

having a GUI where they can drag the partition sizes (without having to jump through hoops to select the partition type, the filesystem type, filesystem options, etc...) should make most of them feel at home (sort of).

I completely agree with above. My idea of taking care of this "partitioning" step User Friendly will be a "visual" environment and drag & drop. Also going with my concept of "Default Option" and "Expert Override", I will see it like this: 1: "Partitioning" step provides me with 2 Bar charts: a. Current b. Suggested where YaST lay out a default partition plan (root, swap etc) even with file systems specified (lets say most stable and common one of preference. We need to remember its not about which FS is superior. Here we need a newbie to get started with something that works stable. Lever it for experts to override). Drag will let me resize the partition. Right mouse menu for create, delete, Expert settings (Where geeks rule). Resizing Windows Zone (I am sure there will be one :P) will cause Warning to be prompted and asked to confirm (Not sure if I can actually resize from YasT. I heard I can, but never had the courage to touch it). My aim is that to have a page where I will be able to pass it with just accepting it but yet I see a graphical picture of what is going on.

...

Furthermore, maybe the package/pattern selection could be skipped altogether in "newbie mode" -- just install KDE, firefox + thunderbird, an IRC client (with a .desktop on the.. Desktop to connect to #suse on irc.freenode.net to get interactive help from the community), and possibly OpenOffice.org (although even that should be skipped once we have a decent and easy to use interface to install stuff).

This one I like. Not because I think it has any specific advantage over the other choices but just because it aligns the installation concept with how "large number" of PC users (Yeah hate to admit but its Windows users) think how a OS installation goes. OS + basic set of packages sounds good. Also aligning it to the Software Portal / Application manager, it works well to. Once I do my first boot into my desktop, its time for me to give a visit to Software Portal and do the shopping. I already feel at home :P

...

Present a choice of "installation modes" really soon (possibly right after choosing between "installation"/"upgrade"/"repair"), with no more than 3 options, explain those options in the selection screen and have different workflows depending on that. [x] Linux newcomer (mmmh.. needs a better denomination) [ ] Intermediate [ ] Expert ? (and explain what configuration operations will be available for each "mode")

Clearly, the less options, the better. And installing packages later on is a non-issue on Linux anyway. It's just that openSUSE+SLED need an interface that's easier to use [to install packages].

With this one, a bit of disagreement. Instead of forking the path from the start, I will love to have it "Default Option" with "Expert override" (which is visually present in the screen) along every step. My idea is this will give a learning / growing / curious mind to explore the options along the way and initiate learning (which eventually makes you a geek). So it will be like i explore the expert settings choices, since i don't know anything I go along with Default choices but then I know there are some things that I might learn and improvise my next installation. Also I guess its usually very hard to make profiles such as "Intermediate". I think it will be hard to differentiate between "Intermediate" choices vs "Expert Choices" I am planning to write a "review" thing with my ideas/imaginations. Planning to have some mockups. Few things I want to ask: 1. Running the imagination will with GUI is easy but how do we keep the text version of the installation in sync with that. Or we don't_want / avoid that? 2. Can we have multi-threading code on the YaST installer? Cheers, Mohammad -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schmidkunz

07:43

Benji Weber schrieb:

...

There's also this travesty of a screen. http://news.softpedia.com/images/reviews/large/opensuseinstallguide-large_01...

I agree with that. But so far we had no idea how to avoid this dialog without pissing off either the KDE or the GNOME guys. Basically both desktops have their advantages and disadvantages. So one solution could be to have one GNOME-openSUSE and one KDE-openSUSE and you have to choose the desktop before you download the distro. But this doesn't seem very elegant to me. Do you have any ideas how to solve that? Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schmidkunz

07:59

Pascal Bleser schrieb:

...

Jyllian Marie Thibodeau wrote: [...]

...
One idea for a compromise I came up with would be a screen at the beginning of the install, with a series of checkboxes to choose those components that you wanted to use during the install. These components can range from "Tweak Hardware", or "Install Additional Packages" to "Set Theme" -- and, short of a disaster, only those options which are selected will be presented to the user. For a custom install option, we could even have some of the more likely ones pre-selected."

But one can hardly skip the partitioning step. I do believe that just screwing the person's windows partition is worse than presenting a partitioning window. OTOH, problem is that configuring the partitioner is a highly technical task (in the scope of the audience you're targeting), most probably don't really know what partitions and filesystems are in the first place (they just know about the stone age C:, D:, ... - at best).

Right. That's why we should emphasize as much of automatic partitioning as possible. Partitioning is something for experienced people but of course we have to find out a solution that also prevents Newbies from loosing their Windows and its data.

...

Most Windows users have a cracked copy of Partition Magic though, so having a GUI where they can drag the partition sizes (without having to jump through hoops to select the partition type, the filesystem type, filesystem options, etc...) should make most of them feel at home (sort of).

I really don't want to present the full-blown partitioner during the installation. Maybe we should offer a simple GUI (something like partition magic GUI or the paragon partitioner GUI) as a fallback for users who don't trust the auto-partitioner?

...

IIRC (been a while I did a fresh install) the partitioning comes before the software selection. Maybe the opposite would be more appropriate, as the partitioner would know how much disk space is needed in order to install the packages and/or patterns the user has selected (+ some more space, depending on what can be resized). Not necessarily trivial to determine an algorithm here but well..

Cool idea!

...

Furthermore, maybe the package/pattern selection could be skipped altogether in "newbie mode" -- just install KDE, firefox + thunderbird, an IRC client (with a .desktop on the.. Desktop to connect to #suse on irc.freenode.net to get interactive help from the community), and possibly OpenOffice.org (although even that should be skipped once we have a decent and easy to use interface to install stuff).

I am afraid we have to take care of our decision not to preselect any desktop. Furthermore I don't think, that Newbies will enter an IRC channel :-) But it is an interesting concept though and I think we should just identify common newbie tasks and install the software needed for these tasks.

...

Present a choice of "installation modes" really soon (possibly right after choosing between "installation"/"upgrade"/"repair"),

I would really like to skip this dialog at all and to replace it with: * display update choice only when a previous openSUSE is detected * move repair into the boot screen

...

with no more than 3 options, explain those options in the selection screen and have different workflows depending on that. [x] Linux newcomer (mmmh.. needs a better denomination) [ ] Intermediate [ ] Expert ? (and explain what configuration operations will be available for each "mode")

We thought about that as well, but we decided to avoid this approach as it gives people a hard feeling having to rate themselves (like those stupid "... for Dummies" book series) and it might be difficult for the user to rate himself. We observed this during our usability tests, that people find it difficult to rate themselves even when the rating scale is explained in three lines :-)

...

And installing packages later on is a non-issue on Linux anyway. It's just that openSUSE+SLED need an interface that's easier to use [to install packages].

Fully agreed! I hope that we can start this discussion next week! Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Benji Weber

08:07

On 5/17/07, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:

...

Benji Weber schrieb:

...
There's also this travesty of a screen. http://news.softpedia.com/images/reviews/large/opensuseinstallguide-large_01...

I agree with that. But so far we had no idea how to avoid this dialog without pissing off either the KDE or the GNOME guys. Basically both desktops have their advantages and disadvantages. So one solution could be to have one GNOME-openSUSE and one KDE-openSUSE and you have to choose the desktop before you download the distro. But this doesn't seem very elegant to me. Do you have any ideas how to solve that?

Just making the kde radiobutton selected by default would be a vast improvement. This solution would not reduce the choice available at all (selecting gnome requires one click in both situations) but would mean that if the user didn't understand they could just click next and follow the path of least resistance. _ Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Benji Weber

08:10

On 5/17/07, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:

...

I am afraid we have to take care of our decision not to preselect any desktop. Furthermore I don't think, that Newbies will enter an IRC channel :-)

Really? The plan was to have something like "Support Options" on the desktop which would have Chat as one of the options, which would connect to IRC. _ Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schmidkunz

08:11

Mohammad Bhuyan schrieb:

...

My idea of taking care of this "partitioning" step User Friendly will be a "visual" environment and drag & drop. Also going with my concept of "Default Option" and "Expert Override", I will see it like this:

1: "Partitioning" step provides me with 2 Bar charts: a. Current b. Suggested where YaST lay out a default partition plan (root, swap etc) even with file systems specified (lets say most stable and common one of preference. We need to remember its not about which FS is superior. Here we need a newbie to get started with something that works stable. Lever it for experts to override).

Drag will let me resize the partition. Right mouse menu for create, delete, Expert settings (Where geeks rule). Resizing Windows Zone (I am sure there will be one :P) will cause Warning to be prompted and asked to confirm (Not sure if I can actually resize from YasT. I heard I can, but never had the courage to touch it).

My aim is that to have a page where I will be able to pass it with just accepting it but yet I see a graphical picture of what is going on.

I think, that this a cool concept and I would recommend that for the intermediate user (e.g. like me :-)). For the newbie user we should still do it via auto-partitioning.

...

With this one, a bit of disagreement. Instead of forking the path from the start, I will love to have it "Default Option" with "Expert override" (which is visually present in the screen) along every step.

But wouldn't this be annoying for the expert users to click on the expert button in each step to explore whats behind?

...

Also I guess its usually very hard to make profiles such as "Intermediate". I think it will be hard to differentiate between "Intermediate" choices vs "Expert Choices"

Yapp.

...

I am planning to write a "review" thing with my ideas/imaginations. Planning to have some mockups. Few things I want to ask:

Cool! Can you please them somewhere on http://en.opensuse.org/UX/Installation This makes it easier for everyone to look at your ideas.

...

1. Running the imagination will with GUI is easy but how do we keep the text version of the installation in sync with that. Or we don't_want / avoid that?

We have to take care of a text version.

...

2. Can we have multi-threading code on the YaST installer?

You mean differnt code strings for different kinds of installations? Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schmidkunz

08:15

Benji Weber schrieb:

...

Just making the kde radiobutton selected by default would be a vast improvement. This solution would not reduce the choice available at all (selecting gnome requires one click in both situations) but would mean that if the user didn't understand they could just click next and follow the path of least resistance.

I see your point and I will bring that into discussion, but I can't promise you anything so far. As you already mentioned: politics :-) Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Mohammad Bhuyan

08:17

Running my imagination wild: Is it possible to have a scheme where once basic install (OS+Basic apps) finishes (not asking for any desktop selection), user is given to explore the look/feel of KDE & GNOME . The user makes a decision and the other Desktop is cleaned up from the system. Too wild a thought? On 5/17/07, Benji Weber wrote:

...

On 5/17/07, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:

...
Benji Weber schrieb:

...
There's also this travesty of a screen. http://news.softpedia.com/images/reviews/large/opensuseinstallguide-large_01...

I agree with that. But so far we had no idea how to avoid this dialog without pissing off either the KDE or the GNOME guys. Basically both desktops have their advantages and disadvantages. So one solution could be to have one GNOME-openSUSE and one KDE-openSUSE and you have to choose the desktop before you download the distro. But this doesn't seem very elegant to me. Do you have any ideas how to solve that?

Just making the kde radiobutton selected by default would be a vast improvement. This solution would not reduce the choice available at all (selecting gnome requires one click in both situations) but would mean that if the user didn't understand they could just click next and follow the path of least resistance.

_ Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schmidkunz

08:19

Benji Weber schrieb:

...

Really?

Really, really :-)

...

The plan was to have something like "Support Options" on the desktop which would have Chat as one of the options, which would connect to IRC.

Might be something to think about improve our help system. Gee, I really need to take notes of all the ideas :-) Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schmidkunz

08:29

Mohammad Bhuyan schrieb:

...

Running my imagination wild:

Is it possible to have a scheme where once basic install (OS+Basic apps) finishes (not asking for any desktop selection), user is given to explore the look/feel of KDE & GNOME . The user makes a decision and the other Desktop is cleaned up from the system.

Too wild a thought?

Thought can't be wild enough :-) Cool! I am just concerned that this would require to install both desktops on the users system which requires more time, packages, etc. But maybe we can actually make short demo during the installation? Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Mohammad Bhuyan

08:56

for the "enlightened" one who knows what he/she wants, will be able to skip the Look&Feel demo and install the desired one.

...

Thought can't be wild enough :-) Cool! I am just concerned that this would require to install both desktops on the users system which requires more time, packages, etc. But maybe we can actually make short demo during the installation?

What if its a prefabricated "Live CD" type demo desktop with OS + Browser + Email + some basics (not based on user selection) running off from RAM Disk. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser

09:12

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Schmidkunz wrote:

...

Pascal Bleser schrieb: [...]

...
Most Windows users have a cracked copy of Partition Magic though, so having a GUI where they can drag the partition sizes (without having to jump through hoops to select the partition type, the filesystem type, filesystem options, etc...) should make most of them feel at home (sort of).

I really don't want to present the full-blown partitioner during the installation. Maybe we should offer a simple GUI (something like partition magic GUI or the paragon partitioner GUI) as a fallback for users who don't trust the auto-partitioner?

As a long-time Linux user, I definitely _want_ to see the full-blown partitioner during the installation. I always set it up with Software RAID1, LVM, several LV partitions for /, /boot, /usr, /var, /home, etc... Please don't discard the full-blown partitioner from the installation for experts ;) Currently the automatic partitioning proposals are a bit dry IMO. It would be very nice to have a graphical representation of the proposal with just very few options to change it (or select "expert mode" to fiddle with it). [ ] Use everything (WARNING: will remove any currently installed operating system from all your hard disks) [x] Resize Windows partition(s) {Modify} +-------------------------+ (show a bar graph |########## **************| for all disks) |### C: ### ** openSUSE **| ... |########## **************| (and also show sizes in GiB) +-------------------------+ [ ] Expert Mode {Modify} being a button ;) But note that this part would be quite difficult to render with the ncurses (text) interface of YaST2. Needs an alternative representation there. I think it's important to detect Windows partitions and label them accordingly (the logic being quite simple to determine what's C:, D:, ...), actually displaying "C:", "D:", etc... - because less experienced users only understand that. Telling them "disk 1 partition 2" won't let them know the installer is going to shrink their D: where they've got all their movies and MP3s ;)

...

...
IIRC (been a while I did a fresh install) the partitioning comes before the software selection. Maybe the opposite would be more appropriate, as the partitioner would know how much disk space is needed in order to install the packages and/or patterns the user has selected (+ some more space, depending on what can be resized). Not necessarily trivial to determine an algorithm here but well..

Cool idea!

...
Furthermore, maybe the package/pattern selection could be skipped altogether in "newbie mode" -- just install KDE, firefox + thunderbird, an IRC client (with a .desktop on the.. Desktop to connect to #suse on irc.freenode.net to get interactive help from the community), and possibly OpenOffice.org (although even that should be skipped once we have a decent and easy to use interface to install stuff).

I am afraid we have to take care of our decision not to preselect any desktop.

*g* yeah.. well.. ok.. politics. The recent survey showed a very significant preference for KDE though.

...

Furthermore I don't think, that Newbies will enter an IRC channel :-)

I don't agree. Sure, they probably don't know what it is nor how it works, but they'd just have to click to be in the room, and we will be there to help them along. The icon would just have to be labelled "meet the community" or something (instead of "IRC") but I'm sure it's going to he a big help when they've got questions or issues. Anyhow, it has already been proposed to AJ. And he likes the idea ;) Will probably be in 10.3.

...

But it is an interesting concept though and I think we should just identify common newbie tasks and install the software needed for these tasks.

Just install a basic desktop system. Once we have a better and easier interface to "add applications", it will be a snap to install OpenOffice.org and such later on. A desktop, a browser, an email client, full-blown YaST2, IRC client, IM client, that's it. Basically what a beginner would expect from a Windows installation + some more. The other advantage being that the installation would be *quick*, something not to underestimate, even wrt usability. Obviously, we still need an expert mode here, with full-blown selection of packages, patterns, etc... (that's already in the installer right now).

...

...
Present a choice of "installation modes" really soon (possibly right after choosing between "installation"/"upgrade"/"repair"),

I would really like to skip this dialog at all and to replace it with: * display update choice only when a previous openSUSE is detected * move repair into the boot screen

Yes, agreed, that's a lot better (especially repair on the first screen).

...

...
with no more than 3 options, explain those options in the selection screen and have different workflows depending on that. [x] Linux newcomer (mmmh.. needs a better denomination) [ ] Intermediate [ ] Expert ? (and explain what configuration operations will be available for each "mode")

We thought about that as well, but we decided to avoid this approach as it gives people a hard feeling having to rate themselves (like those stupid "... for Dummies" book series) and it might be difficult for the

I know, but maybe choosing a non-discriminating label would already do the trick ;) Or maybe just label it "Quick installation".. ?

...

user to rate himself. We observed this during our usability tests, that people find it difficult to rate themselves even when the rating scale is explained in three lines :-)

Hmm.. OK. But... see above. "Quick Installation" and "Expert Mode" ?

...

...
And installing packages later on is a non-issue on Linux anyway. It's just that openSUSE+SLED need an interface that's easier to use [to install packages].

Fully agreed! I hope that we can start this discussion next week!

What's next week ? cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGTBx7r3NMWliFcXcRAswbAKC2YxkHiOQZC2ovEemgaLAFhPcYpQCePHTN xd/NeGlD54+OFgEmrA9blwY= =pKUT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schmidkunz

09:50

Pascal Bleser schrieb:

...

As a long-time Linux user, I definitely _want_ to see the full-blown partitioner during the installation. I always set it up with Software RAID1, LVM, several LV partitions for /, /boot, /usr, /var, /home, etc...

Please don't discard the full-blown partitioner from the installation for experts ;)

As you already mentioned: it makes pretty much sense for experts to enter a full-blown partitioner during installation :-)

...

Currently the automatic partitioning proposals are a bit dry IMO. It would be very nice to have a graphical representation of the proposal with just very few options to change it (or select "expert mode" to fiddle with it).

Yes, it makes sense to have that for users with some experience. And I think that following your layout makes sense.

...

But note that this part would be quite difficult to render with the ncurses (text) interface of YaST2. Needs an alternative representation there.

Yapp. On the other hand, we can do something sophisticated there as people using ncurses are no newbies :-)

...

I think it's important to detect Windows partitions and label them accordingly (the logic being quite simple to determine what's C:, D:, ...), actually displaying "C:", "D:", etc... - because less experienced users only understand that. Telling them "disk 1 partition 2" won't let them know the installer is going to shrink their D: where they've got all their movies and MP3s ;)

Good point. We are doing some this already, but it is an issue that can't be stressed enough :-)

...

Just install a basic desktop system. Once we have a better and easier interface to "add applications", it will be a snap to install OpenOffice.org and such later on.

Mhm. But that would destroy the advantage that our marketing guys are stressing and that makes many, many users extremly happy: to have one working system for basic tasks out of the box and not to be forced to install many additional apps until you can use your system. This is the Windows/Linspire apporach and I don't think we should follow their example. There is a cool Mac vs. PC on apple.com about that :-)

...

The other advantage being that the installation would be *quick*, something not to underestimate, even wrt usability.

Mhm. Ubuntu is installing some basic apps like gimp or oo and it is still quite quick :-)

...

Obviously, we still need an expert mode here, with full-blown selection of packages, patterns, etc... (that's already in the installer right now).

Agreed.

...

I know, but maybe choosing a non-discriminating label would already do the trick ;) Or maybe just label it "Quick installation".. ?

Mhm. Doing the old windows trick: * custom installation (quick and recommended) * advanced installation Sounds nice to me.

...

What's next week ?

I wanted to start a discussion about the openSUSE updater and some thoughts about the organization of YaST modules concerned with software management. Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Lukas Ocilka

11:48

Martin Schmidkunz wrote:

...

Benji Weber schrieb:

...
There's also this travesty of a screen. http://news.softpedia.com/images/reviews/large/opensuseinstallguide-large_01...

I agree with that. But so far we had no idea how to avoid this dialog without pissing off either the KDE or the GNOME guys. Basically both desktops have their advantages and disadvantages. So one solution could be to have one GNOME-openSUSE and one KDE-openSUSE and you have to choose the desktop before you download the distro. But this doesn't seem very elegant to me. Do you have any ideas how to solve that?

Last time I did the 'Installation Review', I've found out a solution for having GNOME and KDE (and other choices) there. Requirements/Additional Info: 1.) We need to have both of these choices there... 2.) Users are forced to decide even without having any clue what GNOME/KDE is. To make this decision easier for users, there could be a link or a button near every selection that would open a pop-up window with more information about it. Such as: * More textual information what is which desktop good for, which are the default desktop applications, history of the desktop... * Screen-shots of the desktop containing also those default applications (Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, KMail, ...) also with general screen-shots of a themed desktop. N-joy! Lukas -- Lukas Ocilka, YaST Developer (xn--luk-gla45d) ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s. r. o., Lihovarska 1060/12, Praha 9, Czech Republic

Martin Schlander

12:48

Den Thursday 17 May 2007 10:17:43 skrev Mohammad Bhuyan:

...

Is it possible to have a scheme where once basic install (OS+Basic apps) finishes (not asking for any desktop selection), user is given to explore the look/feel of KDE & GNOME . The user makes a decision and the other Desktop is cleaned up from the system.

Other than the obivous technical problems of installing it and removing it again - choice of desktop is not just look&feel, it should be about functionality foremost, and you can't judge that by using it for a few minutes or some screenshots. I don't think having a default desktop is crucial either. In my opinion the problem is the descriptions that makes the choice a mere "flip of a coin" for users new to Linux and it's desktop. Imo the solution is to have meaningful descriptions that show some of the difference about, of course this is a very politically sensitive issue, but it should be possible I think, without offending anybody (too much). "KDE: This is a very powerful desktop - the functionality is unrivaled on any platform. The focus is to put the user in complete control of his desktop. Advanced features won't be hidden from the user or removed altogether." "GNOME: This is a modern desktop environment with enough basic functionality that most people can use it if they really want. These people think less is more and go for simplicity. They will rather remove functionality than have an interface that might confuse their dear ol' mum a little bit. This would normally be preferred by older women, who are scared of computers." Hmm.. maybe I didn't do a very good job. But I think this is a serious issue and the identical descriptions are making us look ridiculous to the rest of the world. It must be possible to do something. If we can't have differeing descriptions, maybe we could at least write something more general in that screen, like: "Multiple graphical desktop environments are available for Linux - KDE and GNOME are the most popular. openSUSE offers a choice of both. Both will cover your basic needs. Which one suits you best is a matter of personal taste and wants." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

23:52

On Thursday 17 May 2007 02:59, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:

...

I would really like to skip this dialog at all and to replace it with:

* display update choice only when a previous openSUSE is detected * move repair into the boot screen

Excellent idea. When it is going to happen? Alpha 5? -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Benji Weber

18 May 18 May

06:11

On 17/05/07, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:

...

* display update choice only when a previous openSUSE is detected

There must at least be a way to do a clean install with previous openSUSE, many people do this option. Myself being one as I have all my data separate to the OS install.

...

* move repair into the boot screen

This would be very useful, people don't find it where it is currently hidden. _ Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser

20:37

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Benji Weber wrote:

...

On 17/05/07, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:

...
* display update choice only when a previous openSUSE is detected

There must at least be a way to do a clean install with previous openSUSE, many people do this option. Myself being one as I have all my data separate to the OS install.

Absolutely. Note that Martin meant to only display *update* when an existing opensuse installation is found on disk. So it's either * upgrade or fresh install * fresh install

...

...
* move repair into the boot screen

This would be very useful, people don't find it where it is currently hidden.

Indeed. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGTg6Qr3NMWliFcXcRArQsAJ4hN4jti3GVfXFcG9WHbwFeAW7c7wCgvRdy 7s/KDNrPMWcUiLba+Kaq16Y= =XyOU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

6189

Age (days ago)

6191

Last active (days ago)

List overview

Download

20 comments

8 participants

participants (8)

Benji Weber
Jyllian Marie Thibodeau
Lukas Ocilka
Martin Schlander
Martin Schmidkunz
Mohammad Bhuyan
Pascal Bleser
Rajko M.