If we transition to a "live" installation, could we give the option for desktop environment at boot (or soon thereafter) and give the user the option of running either of the desktops live? That way, they can play with either one without installing it to their machine and if they don't like the one they chose, they can reboot and try the other... this is assuming there is space on the installer cd/dvd for both pieces of software. Maybe distinct desktop installer cd images (a la Mandriva) and a unified dvd image which presents the user with an option before running the live environment? The description of each desktop's functionality could appear on a page for downloading the installer media... could the installer then be made to only offer the user a choice of desktop (along with appropriate descriptions) if more than one environment is available on the source media? Brian "Multiple graphical desktop environments are available for Linux - KDE and GNOME are the most popular. openSUSE offers a choice of both. Both will cover your basic needs. Which one suits you best is a matter of personal taste and wants." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Am 17.05.2007, 19:32 Uhr, schrieb Brian Imhausen <bimhausen@novell.com>:
Maybe distinct desktop installer cd images (a la Mandriva) and a unified dvd image which presents the user with an option before running the live environment?
Yeah! That sounds like a good idea! We should do that.
The description of each desktop's functionality could appear on a page for downloading the installer media...
Maybe we can link not only to a description but also to a short demo of each desktop environment? So that each user can figure out, which basic layout fits him most?
"Multiple graphical desktop environments are available for Linux - KDE and GNOME are the most popular. openSUSE offers a choice of both. Both will cover your basic needs. Which one suits you best is a matter of personal taste and wants."
That is exactly the description we need. It is no suggestions but doesn`t confuse the user. I like it. I would just add something like: [...] Both will cover your basic needs like browsing the internet, emailing, doing office work, picture editing and multimedia. [...] Mhm. Maybe the description is too long. But something similar. What do you think? Enjoy, Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Am 17.05.2007, 19:32 Uhr, schrieb Brian Imhausen <bimhausen@novell.com>:
Maybe distinct desktop installer cd images (a la Mandriva) and a unified dvd image which presents the user with an option before running the live environment?
Yeah! That sounds like a good idea! We should do that.
The description of each desktop's functionality could appear on a page for downloading the installer media...
Maybe we can link not only to a description but also to a short demo of each desktop environment? So that each user can figure out, which basic layout fits him most?
"Multiple graphical desktop environments are available for Linux - KDE and GNOME are the most popular. openSUSE offers a choice of both. Both will cover your basic needs. Which one suits you best is a matter of personal taste and wants."
That is exactly the description we need. It is no suggestions but doesn`t confuse the user. I like it. I would just add something like: [...] Both will cover your basic needs like browsing the internet, emailing, doing office work, picture editing and multimedia. [...]
Mhm. Maybe the description is too long. But something similar. What do you think?
1] openSUSE offers more than just the choice of KDE or GNOME. Virtually every other living desktop environment can be, more or less easily, installed on openSUSE, especially XFCE. 2] I think it should be made very clear that selecting a desktop environment isn't a one way street and can be easily changed. Once installed, it can be selected from the Session menu on the login screen (assuming you have one:-) 3] I think it should be made clearer how to go about adding a new DE after installation, especially in regards to YaST and using Patterns. 4] Perhaps some distinction should be made with regards to Windows, explaining that, unlike Windows, you have many choices for your graphical desktop environment. I do think that reminding people that the desktop choice isn't a final one, and in general, short of having a real preference, either of the "big" ones will suffice, with the only caveat being that I believe someone unfamiliar with X, coming from Windows, will be more comfortable with KDE. -- Jonathan Arnold (mailto:jdarnold@buddydog.org) Daemon Dancing in the Dark, an Open OS weblog: http://freebsd.amazingdev.com/blog/ UNIX is user-friendly. It's just a bit picky about who its friends are. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
I have read some great ideas on this list but we do have to remember we are dealing with users that might have no idea of how Linux and SUSE operate. I can relate to this telling or having a IRC install off of the disc and the user will have no idea what it is (even if we fully explain the function I know from experience a lot of new users will not go that route). Pointing them to a forum would have better results or just a plain chat (instead of using the word IRC maybe we can figure out how to use words like chat, chat type forum, etc which they might understand). I do go along with partition ideas as I have found people who stop installing because they do not understand the partition and are afraid of losing their 'Window platform or corrupting it. This is usually the time I receive telephone calls for help. This area is of great importance because until the new user becomes accustomed to SUSE ease of installing is very important. Areas I see as confusing is creating a new partition and it shows 25G+ (I receive a lot of questions of why the plus or what is that for). Since we do not know the size of the users HDD it will not be easy changing this to some type of auto config. If it is a newer computer we know there will be 80GB or more, but if it is one of the lower cost ones could be only 40GB plus we do not know exactly what they are using in space for Windows. This area needs close attention as once the partition is selected a new user would have no recollection of how to make it bigger if they need to add space. Also with the lower cost computers I feel we should auto create a swap drive because of their low RAM. When the install scans the computer we should detect the current amount of RAM which would decide whether a Swap drive is needed or not and/or give the choice to the user (but fully explain its usage, size, advantage or disadvantage). As for the desktop, KDE or GNOME I always install KDE because of ease of use compared to GNOME. My reason is the current GNOME menu would be to confusing to new users. Even for me I feel it is way over bloated and some parts need to be combined or dropped altogether. I find it hard explaining to a user why he has to open 3 or 4 different programs to do the same thing 1 does on Windows. My main concern in getting a Window user to convert or even to dual boot with SUSE is the ease of installation and also the ease of use until they get the feel of SUSE. Complicating the install with all sorts of instructions and/or areas they cannot figure out is a big turn off. Since most users coming to SUSE have another platform the partition is the area we truly need to work on remembering some will not even know what a partition is. Maybe setting up some sort of mandatory volumns when the disc scans the computer according to the space remaining on the HDD. What does everyone think of this? Instead of all the mumbo jumbo of set point at ___ and hda1 just show that it is installed after windows using so many GB's laying it out where a new user from Windows will understand. It just auto creates a Swap if the RAM is below a certain number or a pop up window with something about Swap and whether they want to create one or not. The biggest problem I have is when they have a ISP email, MSN, AOL, Earthlink, and they do not want to lose that email program. Earthlink is the biggest problem because of their server spam filters with transferring address books and then notifying all their Earthlink buddies of the email move (everything bounces). We do have one advantage over most other distros as SUSE can config dial up modems and a lot of people I get to switch are on dial up (mainly because of cost). I get a lot of people trying Ubuntu over to SUSE because they cannot get their dial-up to work on Ubuntu so whatever is changed we must make sure whomever is doing internet connections does not change this feature. I would say 85%+ I switch are dial up users. George greenarrow1 InNetInvestigations-Forensic SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache GoBoLinux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Am 21.05.2007, 02:15 Uhr, schrieb member greenarrow1 <greenarrow1@opensuse.us>:
I do go along with partition ideas as I have found people who stop installing because they do not understand the partition and are afraid of losing their 'Window platform or corrupting it.
Very good point! I have to admint myself that our partitioner is quite difficult to handle for non-experienced users. I will start a new topic on this list, right after finishing this e-mail :-)
I get a lot of people trying Ubuntu over to SUSE because they cannot get their dial-up to work on Ubuntu so whatever is changed we must make sure whomever is doing internet connections does not change this feature.
OK, we will take care of that :-) Just to assure you, it was not planned to touch this module :-) Thanks for your thought and comments, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Hi Jonathan,
I do think that reminding people that the desktop choice isn't a final one, and in general, short of having a real preference, either of the "big" ones will suffice, with the only caveat being that I believe someone unfamiliar with X, coming from Windows, will be more comfortable with KDE.
Good points. We should try not to forget about them :-) Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Hi everyone! To me, there is no difference on whether the radio button is preselected to either KDE or GNOME, although I prefer GNOME over KDE. Although I don't want to hear/read the complaints by either pro-KDE or pro-GNOME users the will definitely emerge, if such a decision is made. We already have read the benefits/problems either approach has. To me a pre-selection might also be problematic, because either desktop might not be the perfect fit for every user. But a Live-CD/Live-DVD environment might be the best approach to solve this issue. It's where part of the success of Ubuntu/Kubuntu comes from. We (KDE- and GNOME-Teams) actually used this to our advantage at Cebit this year. Both booths stood next to each other and in the majority of 'new-to-linux' cases we handed out both Live-CDs to enable them to testdrive each environment at home. The visitors were very pleased. In a recent 'brainstorm'-like session, an idea was brought up that we might go with a Live-DVD that offers something like 'fast desktop switching'. It should work with a modified gdm/kdm that offers a 'login' with a one-click GNOME or KDE start. Later you are able to switch from one environment to the other with a special icon, button whatever. If you have made a decision, switch to the environment of your choice and hit the install icon. => Users have made a decision on a much more solid ground. => The installation-step in question is gone. BUT: What about the others, e.g. XFCE, GNUstep...? Anyway, we should continue to toss ideas around about this issue and see which ones are the most feasible from dev and ux perspective. Regards, -- Jörg Kreß <jkress@suse.de> YaST2 Development _________________________________________________________________ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Hi Jörg,
Although I don't want to hear/read the complaints by either pro-KDE or pro-GNOME users the will definitely emerge, if such a decision is made.
Right! I think it is pretty much an issue of personal taste and so we want come to an argumentive conclusion about that topic.
It should work with a modified gdm/kdm that offers a 'login' with a one-click GNOME or KDE start. Later you are able to switch from one environment to the other with a special icon, button whatever.
You mean something like the session management (I think it is labeled that way) at login? It gives you the chance to start KDE or GNOME or anything else, but it is quite hidden at present.
BUT: What about the others, e.g. XFCE, GNUstep...?
Japp. Maybe we should offer something like a desktop playground somewhere on openSUSE where the user can get an idea of the various desktops available. Another point we have to consider are those people installing from a non-Live medium? Should they also explore first and choose later?
Anyway, we should continue to toss ideas around about this issue and see which ones are the most feasible from dev and ux perspective.
Sounds good to me :-) Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Hi Martin, On Mon, 2007-05-21 at 11:53 +0200, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
It should work with a modified gdm/kdm that offers a 'login' with a one-click GNOME or KDE start. Later you are able to switch from one environment to the other with a special icon, button whatever.
You mean something like the session management (I think it is labeled that way) at login? It gives you the chance to start KDE or GNOME or anything else, but it is quite hidden at present. Yes, more or less. But instead of providing a login mask, it shows a big icon for each desktop available in the live environment (as we don't need a login for a live session).
I will create a mockup of what I mean later the day, when I'm done with my updater-tasks.
BUT: What about the others, e.g. XFCE, GNUstep...?
Japp. Maybe we should offer something like a desktop playground somewhere on openSUSE where the user can get an idea of the various desktops available.
Another point we have to consider are those people installing from a non-Live medium? Should they also explore first and choose later?
IMHO, a user choosing a non-live medium over a live medium can be considered as someone who knows what he/she is doing. As with KDE / GNOME we could go the Fedora/[U,Ku,Xu,whatever]buntu way and offering different images for different purposes: - Desktop-GNOME Edition - Desktop-KDE Edition - Server - Maximum Freedom (aka. I want it all in one) It's up to the community on whether and how much 'flavors', 'spins' etc. we offer as iso-images. Of course, the last version must offer the Desktop-Options again. Maybe Desktop-GNOME and Desktop-KDE should only be two options among others then, including Workgroup-Server, Web-Server, Firewall etc. Patterns might do this trick... Cheers, Josh -- Jörg Kreß <jkress@suse.de> YaST2 Development _________________________________________________________________ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Hi Jörg,
I will create a mockup of what I mean later the day, when I'm done with my updater-tasks.
Cool! As we had it in the discussion of the partitioner: A picture sometimes says more than 1000 words :-)
As with KDE / GNOME we could go the Fedora/[U,Ku,Xu,whatever]buntu way and offering different images for different purposes:
I also think, that we can offer this choice to Newbies before they are downloading the live-CD. That might also be a good place to give them the possibilities to explore these two desktops. Somewhere in the "download here" section.
- Maximum Freedom (aka. I want it all in one)
Yeah! Gimme 5 GB of stuff :-) (just kidding :-))
Patterns might do this trick...
We should remeber that, while redesigning the software management :-) Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Hi list, hi Martin On Mon, 2007-05-21 at 13:00 +0200, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
I will create a mockup of what I mean later the day, when I'm done with my updater-tasks.
Cool! As we had it in the discussion of the partitioner: A picture sometimes says more than 1000 words :-)
There you go: http://en.opensuse.org/UX/LiveEnvironment Josh -- Jörg Kreß <jkress@suse.de> YaST2 Development _________________________________________________________________ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Hi Josh, hi list,
There you go: http://en.opensuse.org/UX/LiveEnvironment
Thanks :-) It looks like a nice idea to me. Nonetheless the user doesn't get an idea of the look of each of the two desktops. * Maybe it would be a good idea to use screenshots from the desktop + startmenu instead of the big logos? * Wouldn't the text below the icon be the same for KDE and for GNOME? Maybe we can skip it. Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-05-21 at 18:10 +0200, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Hi Josh, hi list,
There you go: http://en.opensuse.org/UX/LiveEnvironment
Thanks :-) It looks like a nice idea to me. Nonetheless the user doesn't get an idea of the look of each of the two desktops. * Maybe it would be a good idea to use screenshots from the desktop + startmenu instead of the big logos? I fear, that we get in trouble, because the Screenshots would be far too small to recognize any difference (from the point of view of an uninitiated -- I would _always and with closed eyes_ recognize my desktop of choice ;-) )
I attach the svg source to the wiki, so everyone can play with it.
* Wouldn't the text below the icon be the same for KDE and for GNOME? Maybe we can skip it. Au contraire my friend! Actually the text I chose is little more than a dummy text. Of course the final text should be more descriptive. I think it is up to the respective communities to come up with a good description. Or we just rip it out of the wiki.
But seriously: Maybe we should make some tests to actually know, what we need in this screen. Honestly, I don't know it; I'd first have to see some users actually using it, to see whether something is wrong with the screen... Cheers, Josh -- Jörg Kreß <jkress@suse.de> YaST2 Development _________________________________________________________________ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
participants (6)
-
Brian Imhausen -
Joerg Kress -
Jonathan Arnold -
Martin Schmidkunz -
Martin Schmidkunz -
member greenarrow1