* Jerry Feldman (gaf@blu.org) [030419 12:19]: ->On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:24:58 -0700 ->Ben Rosenberg wrote: -> ->> I don't mean this in a mean way but the only reason RH is the " ->> biggest" distribution is because Americans think they must " buy ->> American ". ->I think this is bull. While there is certainly a "buy American" movement ->in the US, especially in the South, I don't think that has ever been the ->case with Linux. There are several other American distributions (such as ->Caldera and Debian) that have never been able to make a big dent. Red ->Hat grew because its distributions were in the right place at the right ->time, and because of some decent marketing. Many of the engineers at HP ->(formerly Digital) are and were SuSE users. One problem I see is that ->some people (and businesses) equate Red Hat and Linux. It's not bull. RH is an American company and most of us never look beyond the front of our noses for things..in this case that's why people equate RH with Linux. It's called being marketed too. And I've heard people at my job say they want to use RH because they are an American company and I heard this from some people at Linuxworld last year. Otherwise SuSE would be kicking their ass more because SuSE's a better product. But this is just what I've heard, seen and formed my opinion on. *shrug* -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org Tell me what you believe.. I'll tell you what you should see.

On Saturday 19 April 2003 23:27, Peter B Van Campen wrote: <snip>

There seems to be an entire segment of the Linux crowd that simply MUST be gratified by (free beer) FREE PRODUCT. If they don't get it, they get hostile and vindictive. The bottom feeders that are illegally copying and selling 8.2 CDs and DVDs on Ebay even refer customers to the REDHAT Website for justification as to why it is OK for them to rip SuSE off!! But rest assured that those bottom feeders are selling a lot of SuSE sets.

Well, rant =OFF. I feel better now anyway.

PeterB

Agree with your sentiments. One way of supporting SuSE is to buy the distro. I have always done and will continue. £40 or £60 for the professional edition once or twice a year is well worth it.

-- --

Proud to be a SuSE Linux User since 5.2

--

Since 6.4 :)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

It's not bull. RH is an American company and most of us never look beyond the front of our noses for things..in this case that's why people equate RH with Linux. It's called being marketed too. And I've heard people at my job say they want to use RH because they are an American company and I heard this from some people at Linuxworld last year. Otherwise SuSE would be kicking their ass more because SuSE's a better product. But this is just what I've heard, seen and formed my opinion on. *shrug*

Ben, I think your right, at least partially. I know that some of the people I have talked to seem to think that an American based disto is more suitable (for various reasons, mostly antecdotal and not always clear about a "real" reason). I have the overwhelming impression that they seem to think that an American company is more accessible in terms of support and product. On the other hand, I can't help but get the feeling that perhaps this is due to the outsourcing of IT labor/jobs to companies other than those in the U.S. I'm sure you're aware of the issues revolving around how many companies are outsource product development to non-U.S. comanies. Though, from what I can gather, this trend may be reversing due to hassles with follow up accountiblity and after market product resources and developments. It might be that those in the IT sector that are in the cat bird chair (or not [cat bird = decision makers postion for the unfamiliar with U.S. idioms]) probably want to promote those in U.S. markets due to their economic tendencies and biases. I think that many in your work place may subscribe to the is notion (whether they admit it or not). One the up note, the BIG BOYS on Wall Street and the like have chosen SuSE for the big runners, which says loads about the product since many in these companies put a high value on both functionality and reliability. I know that many of the Wall Street/Fortune 500 companies that decided on SuSE did so only after fairly extensive testing and shake downs of the various products. So, even though there may or may not be a bias in the U.S for "made in the U.S.A." wares. The players that have to have tighter constraints with less tolerance for mal/misfeasance in their operation have opted for SuSE. Just an observation. Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ovB+7WVLiDrqeksRAvgIAKC50AzlSzNKn67eiXMLybAooV2+oQCcDl5g zQBkpZOocUOPcqUAlEuiXJM= =Q2LQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

* Jim Norton (jrn@oregonhanggliding.com) [030420 13:11]: ->Then again, some Americans just want to spend their money on American companies ->to help the American economy. Though I have used RH, Mandrake and SuSE, it's not ->altogether an unreasonable ideal - spend your money on products created in your ->homeland, for your homelands benefit. True. But most of the Honda's sold in the U.S. are made in Kentucky and Linux was made by developers all over the planet and created by a Fin. So I guess the better arguement would be that people like to buy products packaged in the states that American companies get the cash for. Made in the U.S.A is subjective now :) I mean if you buy a VW in the states it's not made in Germany, but in Mexico. :) Anyway. I'd rather buy a good product then let some idealizm get in the way and have to deal with something substandard. Oh well. -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org Tell me what you believe.. I'll tell you what you should see.

On Mon, 2003-04-21 at 01:26, Jim Norton wrote:

True enough, many "foreign" products are made in the US. My point was simply one possible reason why SuSE might not be selling as well in the US as RH is.

When people buy a product, they do not simply purchase what is in the box. If you buy a car, you want a car that can still be serviced and repaired in ten years time - at least that it should be sellable when you've filled the ash-trays. So, as economists have pointed out, it is perfectly rational to buy goods that are heavily advertised. Advertising is rather like the peacock's tail : it demonstrates that once the bird, or the firm, has expended resources on the basic business of staying alive, it still has energy left-over to make a fine display. At present, Red Hat makes a fine display, thereby signalling that it is in good health, and that if you buy the distribution, there is a good chance that it will be followed up by new versions, that there will be books and articles directed to it, and that you will be able to find people to help you if you are in trouble. So people will buy it. Mandrake, on the other hand, has - or at least had - a web-site that made any potential buyer suspect that it was a basket-case. Suse has been discrete, which is more sensible than their French competitors under present market-conditios. I first purchased Suse because it said on the box that there was a French service bureau. Silly me ; by the time I got home, Suse had closed it down. I played with changing over to Mandrake, but the panhandling web-site put me right off. In the end, a couple of reviews suggested that Suse 8.0 installed more cleanly than the latest Red Hat, and I was somewhat used to Suse, so I got myself the 8.1. But first-time buyers are sensibly going to go for a product that is present in the media and, preferably, in their home country - for both selfish and ideological reasons. I buy European when possible because they're closer to home and because I have a stronger cultural identity with the producers. I'm not surpriesed when Americans or anyone else does the same thing. (In France, it is much easier to buy either Mandrake or Red Hat than Suse. Both the former are present in the big stores like the Fnac, while Suse is hidden away in the specialist shops - and even some of those have stopped stocking it for GNU-based ideological reasons - as you will find out if you follow the links offered by Suse itself - wake up fellas). Best wishes Timothy Mason

What links are you referring to about GNU-Ideology and software stocking?

On Mon, 2003-04-21 at 01:26, Jim Norton wrote:

...

True enough, many "foreign" products are made in the US. My point was simply one possible reason why SuSE might not be selling as well in the US as RH is.

When people buy a product, they do not simply purchase what is in the box. If you buy a car, you want a car that can still be serviced and repaired in ten years time - at least that it should be sellable when you've filled the ash-trays. So, as economists have pointed out, it is perfectly rational to buy goods that are heavily advertised. Advertising is rather like the peacock's tail : it demonstrates that once the bird, or the firm, has expended resources on the basic business of staying alive, it still has energy left-over to make a fine display.

At present, Red Hat makes a fine display, thereby signalling that it is in good health, and that if you buy the distribution, there is a good chance that it will be followed up by new versions, that there will be books and articles directed to it, and that you will be able to find people to help you if you are in trouble. So people will buy it. Mandrake, on the other hand, has - or at least had - a web-site that made any potential buyer suspect that it was a basket-case. Suse has been discrete, which is more sensible than their French competitors under present market-conditios.

I first purchased Suse because it said on the box that there was a French service bureau. Silly me ; by the time I got home, Suse had closed it down. I played with changing over to Mandrake, but the panhandling web-site put me right off. In the end, a couple of reviews suggested that Suse 8.0 installed more cleanly than the latest Red Hat, and I was somewhat used to Suse, so I got myself the 8.1. But first-time buyers are sensibly going to go for a product that is present in the media and, preferably, in their home country - for both selfish and ideological reasons. I buy European when possible because they're closer to home and because I have a stronger cultural identity with the producers. I'm not surpriesed when Americans or anyone else does the same thing.

(In France, it is much easier to buy either Mandrake or Red Hat than Suse. Both the former are present in the big stores like the Fnac, while Suse is hidden away in the specialist shops - and even some of those have stopped stocking it for GNU-based ideological reasons - as you will find out if you follow the links offered by Suse itself - wake up fellas).

Best wishes

Timothy Mason

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 21 April 2003 02:03 am, Timothy Mason wrote:

On Mon, 2003-04-21 at 01:26, Jim Norton wrote:

...

True enough, many "foreign" products are made in the US. My point was simply one possible reason why SuSE might not be selling as well in the US as RH is.

When people buy a product, they do not simply purchase what is in the box. If you buy a car, you want a car that can still be serviced and repaired in ten years time - at least that it should be sellable when you've filled the ash-trays. So, as economists have pointed out, it is perfectly rational to buy goods that are heavily advertised. Advertising is rather like the peacock's tail : it demonstrates that once the bird, or the firm, has expended resources on the basic business of staying alive, it still has energy left-over to make a fine display.

Precisely! This is exactly what I meant by "perception is reality" where, at least in the U.S., the market place is concerned.

At present, Red Hat makes a fine display, thereby signalling that it is in good health, and that if you buy the distribution, there is a good chance that it will be followed up by new versions, that there will be books and articles directed to it, and that you will be able to find people to help you if you are in trouble. So people will buy it. Mandrake, on the other hand, has - or at least had - a web-site that made any potential buyer suspect that it was a basket-case. Suse has been discrete, which is more sensible than their French competitors under present market-conditios.

Yes, most of the impressions I get related to this is that A) Redhat fits in the mold of the archetypical U.S. corporate business. And in doing this plays into the mind set of the other corporates. B) People in the U.S. see RH as being managed in a way the engenders a feeling that they are here to stay and near. They "percieve" this as being solid and working toward being stable and hence this is their "reality". I started on Mandrake back in 7.1 days. The experience was positive enough to convince me to stick with Linux. But, I agree with your take on how Mandrake interacted with the public client base. I felt as if I were being manipulated into buy services and and upgrades far more than get help and updates for the product I already have. And in this manner I felt less inclined to be loyal to Mandrake because I always had questions about their intentions related to me as a valued customer - this always lurked in the back of my mind and led me to investigate what else was out there - hence I bought SuSE and after a few months of using it and participating with this list dropped Mandrake like a bad habit.

I first purchased Suse because it said on the box that there was a French service bureau. Silly me ; by the time I got home, Suse had closed it down. I played with changing over to Mandrake, but the panhandling web-site put me right off. In the end, a couple of reviews suggested that Suse 8.0 installed more cleanly than the latest Red Hat, and I was somewhat used to Suse, so I got myself the 8.1. But first-time buyers are sensibly going to go for a product that is present in the media and, preferably, in their home country - for both selfish and ideological reasons. I buy European when possible because they're closer to home and because I have a stronger cultural identity with the producers. I'm not surpriesed when Americans or anyone else does the same thing.

I agree and understand this as a reasonable stance to take. If I lived in Japan and used a non-Japanese distro for my business I would only do so if I could get access to something/someone that I could contact or meet within Japan. I think the same holds true for any place.

(In France, it is much easier to buy either Mandrake or Red Hat than Suse. Both the former are present in the big stores like the Fnac, while Suse is hidden away in the specialist shops - and even some of those have stopped stocking it for GNU-based ideological reasons - as you will find out if you follow the links offered by Suse itself - wake up fellas).

This is what I've also noticed, insofar about being discrete. SuSE in the U.S. can be found in the major shops such as BestBuy, CompUSA, Fry's etc.. But, the focus in the U.S. as far has who gets more of the Lime Light and exposure in the public sector is RH. I think it's time to step up to the plate and starting pitching a little more. SuSE needs to stop acting as if they are a nitch player. They're now considered one to the Top 2 distros on the world market overall and only second to RH. Now grabbing the #1 spot for the sake of grabbing the #1 spot isn't all it's cracked up to be and often more bother than it's worth. But I have no doubt that SuSE could definitely gather more market share. I think this should be the focus of their advertising and marketing.

Best wishes Timothy Mason

Cheers, Curtis . :) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+pC707WVLiDrqeksRAo0OAKDfmncag588nZge5PAJqo6WedCRRQCghuaz zfACWUL6CpbDEaGJ/23ZBHg= =4T0d -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Sunday 20 April 2003 9:08 pm, Jim Norton wrote:

Then again, some Americans just want to spend their money on American companies to help the American economy. Though I have used RH, Mandrake and SuSE, it's not altogether an unreasonable ideal - spend your money on products created in your homeland, for your homelands benefit.

-Jim-

The second class [non American] citizens of the world are grateful to be allowed on this list besides being grateful that President Bush protected the American steel industry by banning imports of European steel [hurting the UK steel industry - but we are only holding your coats while you fight your War of Terror]. Day after day, B52's have been flying over my house from RAF Fairford here in England to drop bombs on Iraqiis, innocent and guilty alike. It is not as if it was an operation against bin Laden, it is just that the 3000 dead of September 11 provided an convenient pretext [acceptable to the stupid] for an already planned operation against a tinpot dictator, who might really have been too shit scared to actually have any Weapons of Mass Destruction like America has. But then in the fog of war, everyone will forget to verify that issue. The US army has been manhandling British protestors outside RAF Fairford [on UK soil], your unmarked Black Hawk helicopter was flying low [40m] over the protest march I attended, to drown speeches and disrupt - although the UK police were completely in control of the situation. Please understand, I am white, English speaking and nearly middle aged, and I am becoming seriously pissed at general American arrogance. Don't take this too personally Jim, 'cos you are only responsible for what you said above and I don't hold you responsible for the context in which it is insensitive to say the above in an international forum. But if you sense how I feel, just imagine how non-white non-English speaking young men around the world are feeling. So, if Americans wish to talk about doing stuff which is primarily to benefit Americans, that is fine. But if you are going to do it on an international list, please appreciate: 1] American values are NOT universal 2] Non-Americans are not a minority interest group 3] Dissent from American values is unremarkable and to be expected 4] Americans are treading on thin ice internationally at the moment regards Vince Littler

Guy's I understand both your points, but please take your political discussions off the list. You can reply to each other and "discuss" (or argue) all you want, just do it off-list. The list is for Linux discussions, *not* political debates. Thanks! On Sun, 2003-04-20 at 16:23, Vince Littler wrote:

On Sunday 20 April 2003 9:08 pm, Jim Norton wrote:

-- Travis Owens Linux MDs

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 20 April 2003 23:23, Vince Littler wrote: WELL SAID.

On Sunday 20 April 2003 9:08 pm, Jim Norton wrote:

...

Then again, some Americans just want to spend their money on American companies to help the American economy. Though I have used RH, Mandrake and SuSE, it's not altogether an unreasonable ideal - spend your money on products created in your homeland, for your homelands benefit.

-Jim-

The second class [non American] citizens of the world are grateful to be allowed on this list besides being grateful that President Bush protected the American steel industry by banning imports of European steel [hurting the UK steel industry - but we are only holding your coats while you fight your War of Terror].

Day after day, B52's have been flying over my house from RAF Fairford here in England to drop bombs on Iraqiis, innocent and guilty alike. It is not as if it was an operation against bin Laden, it is just that the 3000 dead of September 11 provided an convenient pretext [acceptable to the stupid] for an already planned operation against a tinpot dictator, who might really have been too shit scared to actually have any Weapons of Mass Destruction like America has. But then in the fog of war, everyone will forget to verify that issue.

The US army has been manhandling British protestors outside RAF Fairford [on UK soil], your unmarked Black Hawk helicopter was flying low [40m] over the protest march I attended, to drown speeches and disrupt - although the UK police were completely in control of the situation.

Please understand, I am white, English speaking and nearly middle aged, and I am becoming seriously pissed at general American arrogance. Don't take this too personally Jim, 'cos you are only responsible for what you said above and I don't hold you responsible for the context in which it is insensitive to say the above in an international forum. But if you sense how I feel, just imagine how non-white non-English speaking young men around the world are feeling.

So, if Americans wish to talk about doing stuff which is primarily to benefit Americans, that is fine. But if you are going to do it on an international list, please appreciate: 1] American values are NOT universal 2] Non-Americans are not a minority interest group 3] Dissent from American values is unremarkable and to be expected 4] Americans are treading on thin ice internationally at the moment

regards

Vince Littler

- -- A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. Groucho Marx - ---------------------------------------------------- This mail has been scanned for virus by AntiVir for UNIX Copyright (C) 1994-2003 by H+BEDV Datentechnik GmbH. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+oxeSKiWi8VifhEkRAkd8AJ91tyVyU+hvICY0b2iAFZ00914YGgCeKZ/7 6q9Xu5d10IJcLc9QlDFBiAE= =4rX8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Enough with the politics. As an aside however, your statement that Bush wasn't elected is patent propaganda. EVERY independant audit/recount of the votes in Florida show Bush the winner by a good size margin. You don't have to like it, you don't have to like Bush, hell you don't even have to like America, but you don't have the right to tell your left-wing liberal bullshit lies about the election. I didn't like Clinton, but he was the president. Just as Bush is the president now. And don't lump us all together, we don't all support Michael Moore either. Sorry folks, had to say it. No more politics on the list for me. BTW: You have a yahoo email address. Are you one of the liberals that I can and do count on for a good laugh in the Yahoo message boards?

--- Ian David Laws wrote:

...

...

Please understand, I am white, English speaking and nearly middle aged, and I am becoming seriously pissed at general American arrogance.

I am white, English speaking and totally middle aged, and I am becoming seriously pissed at general world view that all Americans support George Bush's war against Irag. Please remember that Bush was not elected president. A very large number of us don't like him, don't want him, and are embarrassed by him. He has brought great shame to our great country. So please remember this when lumping all of us together under the rubric of "gemeral American arrogance." It may seem that way, but it really isn't so.

...

just imagine how non-white non-English speaking young men

...

around the world are feeling.

Not to mention non-white young men right here in America.

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* Michael ONeill [04-20-03 21:17]:

--- Ian David Laws wrote:

...

...

Please understand, I am white, English speaking and nearly middle aged, and

[snip]

I am white, English speaking and totally middle aged, and I am becoming seriously pissed at general world [snip again]

Talk about a busy day. This is the third redirection to /dev/null I have made in procmail today. But the total list IQ has risen by at least 31 points in the meantime. Remember, Keep A Positive Outlook (that's not OutBreak)! -- Patrick Shanahan Please avoid TOFU and trim >quotes< http://wahoo.no-ip.org Registered Linux User #207535 icq#173753138 @ http://counter.li.org Linux, a continuous *learning* experience

I thought there was an off topic list associated with this one. On Sunday 20 April 2003 11:05 pm, Hans Forbrich wrote:

Folks,

Any chance of having senders, repliers, or whoever, put [Politics] in the subject line. That would give the rest of us a chance to put this stuff into the kill file.

The traffic on this list is busy enough - stop with the non-SuSE stuff ... pretty please

TIA /Hans

Hey Group: I am also an White American and would like to mention that Bush WAS ELECTED by the public wishes. We have an old government election system known as "The Electoral College". It is in our Federal Government documents that this group of US citizens "select" the President. They did there job. NO where is it that the President is elected by the people directly. Gore lost, get over it! As for like George Bush - according the media he has 80+ percent of the public support. Note: No flames or nasty un-needed words. Michael ONeill wrote:

--- Ian David Laws wrote:

...

Please understand, I am white, English speaking and nearly middle aged, and I am becoming seriously pissed at general American

...

arrogance.

I am white, English speaking and totally middle aged, and I am becoming seriously pissed at general world view that all Americans support George Bush's war against Irag. Please remember that Bush was not elected president. A very large number of us don't like him, don't want him, and are embarrassed by him. He has brought great shame to our great country. So please remember this when lumping all of us together under the rubric of "gemeral American arrogance." It may seem that way, but it really isn't so.

...

just imagine how non-white non-English speaking young men around the world are feeling.

Not to mention non-white young men right here in

-- 73 de Donn Washburn __ " http://www.hal-pc.org/~n5xwb " Ham Callsign N5XWB / / __ __ __ __ __ __ __ 307 Savoy St. / /__ / / / \/ / / /_/ / \ \/ / Sugar Land, TX 77478 /_____/ /_/ /_/\__/ /_____/ /_/\_\ LL# 1.281.242.3256 a MSDOS Virus "Free Zone" OS Email: n5xwb@hal-pc.org Info: http://www.knoppix.net

*** Reply to message from Vince Littler on Sun, 20 Apr 2003 22:23:48 +0100***

1] American values are NOT universal

we have actually noticed this

4] Americans are treading on thin ice internationally at the moment

yes, this seems to be engendered by our desire to be loved , and our perplexity that so many folks seem to think they are entitled to our money, but would prefer we just send a cheque and never actually ask for anything in return. So, if we do what everyone wants... everyone hates us. If, we do what we want ... everyone hates us... seems an easy choice to me, -- j Afterthought : Pascal: What's it Wirth?

This is not the forum for this kind post. Please, let us stick to SuSE support issues. LW999 On Sunday 20 April 2003 22:23, Vince Littler wrote:

On Sunday 20 April 2003 9:08 pm, Jim Norton wrote:

...

Then again, some Americans just want to spend their money on American companies to help the American economy. Though I have used RH, Mandrake and SuSE, it's not altogether an unreasonable ideal - spend your money on products created in your homeland, for your homelands benefit.

-Jim-

The second class [non American] citizens of the world are grateful to be allowed on this list besides being grateful that President Bush protected the American steel industry by banning imports of European steel [hurting the UK steel industry - but we are only holding your coats while you fight your War of Terror].

Day after day, B52's have been flying over my house from RAF Fairford here in England to drop bombs on Iraqiis, innocent and guilty alike. It is not as if it was an operation against bin Laden, it is just that the 3000 dead of September 11 provided an convenient pretext [acceptable to the stupid] for an already planned operation against a tinpot dictator, who might really have been too shit scared to actually have any Weapons of Mass Destruction like America has. But then in the fog of war, everyone will forget to verify that issue.

The US army has been manhandling British protestors outside RAF Fairford [on UK soil], your unmarked Black Hawk helicopter was flying low [40m] over the protest march I attended, to drown speeches and disrupt - although the UK police were completely in control of the situation.

Please understand, I am white, English speaking and nearly middle aged, and I am becoming seriously pissed at general American arrogance. Don't take this too personally Jim, 'cos you are only responsible for what you said above and I don't hold you responsible for the context in which it is insensitive to say the above in an international forum. But if you sense how I feel, just imagine how non-white non-English speaking young men around the world are feeling.

So, if Americans wish to talk about doing stuff which is primarily to benefit Americans, that is fine. But if you are going to do it on an international list, please appreciate: 1] American values are NOT universal 2] Non-Americans are not a minority interest group 3] Dissent from American values is unremarkable and to be expected 4] Americans are treading on thin ice internationally at the moment

regards

Vince Littler

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 15:53:20 -0500 Trey wrote:

...

...

I don't mean this in a mean way but the only reason RH is the " biggest" distribution is because Americans think they must " buy American ".

I think this is bull. While there is certainly a "buy American" movement in the US, especially in the South, I don't think that has ever been the case with Linux. There are several other American distributions (such as Caldera and Debian) that have never been able to make a big dent. Red Hat grew because its distributions were in the right place at the right time, and because of some decent marketing. Many of the engineers at HP (formerly Digital) are and were SuSE users. One problem I see is that some people (and businesses) equate Red Hat and Linux.

i'll bet you microsoft will soon use that in there attack againts linux. in fact if i remeber ballmer once said that linux was not the "american way" whatever the hell that means

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 19 April 2003 15:53 pm, Trey wrote:

...

...

I don't mean this in a mean way but the only reason RH is the " biggest" distribution is because Americans think they must " buy American ".

I think this is bull. While there is certainly a "buy American" movement in the US, especially in the South, I don't think that has ever been the case with Linux. There are several other American distributions (such as Caldera and Debian) that have never been able to make a big dent. Red Hat grew because its distributions were in the right place at the right time, and because of some decent marketing. Many of the engineers at HP (formerly Digital) are and were SuSE users. One problem I see is that some people (and businesses) equate Red Hat and Linux.

An old analogy in the early PC market, the Atari ST computer was very popular in Europe, but not in America, yet it was a US company.

It's all in marketing and perception.

Agreed. There is not a "buy american" movement for Linux in my area. It's simply the fact, that every bookstore you goto has dozens of official "Red Hat Press" books to help get you started. Very nice books, that are extremly helpful. So when many people here start reaserching Linux, it's Red Hat they see. I wish there were suse books to buy. I have seen only one, & it was for version 6.xx.

RedHat advertisies here, so for alot of people, it's the only name they know. Thats why they are #1 here. It's certeinly not because they are the best for everyone. I am using SUSE & Slack, because I do not like the way RH is doing things. -Trey

True. When I read the Linux mags and go to pro-Linux sites I see full page adds and website banner adds for RH all over the place. I've only seen a couple of adds for SuSE. The biggest I can recall is a 1/4 width, top to bottom, add in some computer mags. In contrast I see the back cover page of quite a lot computer mags covered with RH adverts, as well as, full page adds inside (both pro and consumer rags). I think that this is one ot the areas that SuSE needs to concentrate on. In America marketing/advertisings wins the day since in the U.S. markets "perception is reality". I think what others have said is very true... RH is highly visible and in the face of those thinking of converting. While it's true the the serious (read Wall Street and Fortune 500) that do big time research into the various factions of Linux find the SuSE generally is more cutting edge with more accessible high end support, Many may feel that since RH is at home and "everywhere" (once again 'perception is reality') that the often make the mental leap that Linux and RH is one in the same and probably don't bother to look deeper than that. On the subject of literature of Linux distros, RH has a gross amount of the market share in this department by far. Barnes & Nobles, Borders, and even the University book store (usually far more comprehensive and with a wider range of sources) has far more selections for RH (though more SuSE also). SuSE seems to be trying to cut expenses by putting their books into the product packages, I think that having more current resources to be found in the public market would benefit SuSE and their client base greatly. The books included in the distro is very very nice and a great resource. On the down side, I often wonder if a little complacency isn't taking place in this arena. I mean, some of the stuff in the books I got with 8.1 seemed to refer to the previous distro. Though generally pertinent and valid, on occassion I have noticed that some of the stuff in the books refers to things that aren't quite correct in light of the changes in the newer versions and though giving one a generally idea or concept it doesn't address the sublty in difference between the previous and current versioning. I would like to see SuSE promote more 3rd party publications. The only problem I see in this regards is the the time between making a comprehensive book and the release cycle of the version, it is obvious that it may be a tad out of date by the time it goes to press compared to the time the next version is brought to market. Now, to RHs credit, I have seen a number of books that seem to be written as the new version is developed. So one can assume that those at RH are giving the writers lead in info in order to make the books and the version releases conincide much more. I have always thought the the one thing lacking with SuSE is the amount of advertising and marketing they do. I realize that early on they did as much as any other distor (if not more in some cases) but I also realize that they had to do some belt tightening a couple/few years ago and it stands to reason that advertising would be scaled back in light of the cost/benefit ratio. I strongly urge SuSE execs to focus on a higher profile market strategy in the U.S. market. I believe that this is one of the primary factors that gives RH an advantage in the U.S. Just my $0,02. :) Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ouvM7WVLiDrqeksRAoDWAKCOZ5DvxRcyw1NZ7P38u7dOkmjAgACfbVet BtwGEvpZ4LM5IIv1VyHSDQ0= =YMoh -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----