I disagree with how much easier it is on windows. I'd say that installs of modern Distros like Suse are significantly easier than on windows. Take a new machine with a virgin (unformatted disk). I can do a default package install of SuSE 7.2 on this in less than half an hour (the IBM disks I have are v.quick). There's no way I can do windows NT/W2K installs in that time (you'd need half an hour on the reboots alone!). Installing a VMWare client for Windows 98 takes longer than installing SuSE from scratch. Also once you have KDE 2 installed, life can be very simple for even naive users. The comparisons are unfair because very few 'naive' users buy windows systems where they have to do the initial partitioning and install themselves. They nearly always buy preloaded systems with all the MS software preinstalled. Also bear in mind that installs from vendors like SuSE have to take the trouble to worry about what windows partition's there may be on there and offer dual-host capability. No Windows install is ever gonna concern itself with non-MS software (ie viral software in the words of BG). Tim Harrell
-----Original Message----- From: Ron Cordell [mailto:roncordell@atl.mediaone.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:04 AM To: Daniel Woodard; SLE Subject: Re: [SLE] SuSE CTO and President Steps Down
You touch on a very important point. Nobody wants to spend the time knowing how the OS works in order to get their job done - they just want to start working and be productive. Nowadays, it is *much* easier to be there on Linux, so that is good, but it is nowhere near as mind-numbingly easy as it is on Windows. Some will argue that is a good thing, however, most of the planet doesn't want or care to know those details - they just want it to work.
It is extra effort on my part to be able to work on a Linux platform, even for software development, but I do it because it is valuable in other ways.
And think of it this way, there is still NO product activation!
I hope Activation has some sort of effect on somebody- read Corporate IS. I won't go near the thing, sticking with W2k forever it looks
Windows side, I also use MacOS as well- each machine it's task).
One thing though, the fatal flaw is Linux on workstations. I've been dorking around with linux for years now, and I still think it's quite hard to do a lot configuration stuff. I could not get my partner to suffer the same learning curve, so I'm the lone Linux guy here.
My primary job is video/graphics/multimedia production and I feel like, even by using Linux on our servers, I'm an exception to the rule. Other people in my position would never go through what I went
even "sort of" proficient at Linux.
If you live and breath sys admin, then of course it's easy. If it's the 7th of 10 (time consuming) hats you wear, Linux can be very hard to use. I still "break" things and then have a really hard time getting it to work again. Lib this, permission that, missing this, on and on. Yeah, I love the power, but for me it's an extended hobby/passion of love
said, others in my shoes would never go through the learning curve and would opt for a Mac server, or a Windows server.
Example: I bought Cold Fusion 5 and Generator DE for Linux. PHP is hard for me, and while I continue to dick around with it, I'm more
On Tuesday 28 August 2001 05:10 pm, Daniel Woodard wrote: like (on the through to get thing. Like I productive in CF.
Well, CF is very very very easy to install on SuSE. I never did get Generator to install on the same server. I spent days, I recompiled Apache, messed with java implementaion (way over my head) and ended up with no working Generator DE server, and I was worn out. Now Generator is on W2k sitting next to my SuSE/Cold Fusion server. The windows install was a breeze.
OK, I was 1 for 2 there- CF on Linux, Generator on W2k.
Yeah, they could write better installers or whatever, but still, the real world here.
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Harrell, Tim wrote:
I disagree with how much easier it is on windows. I'd say that installs of modern Distros like Suse are significantly easier than on windows. Take a new machine with a virgin (unformatted disk). I can do a default package install of SuSE 7.2 on this in less than half an hour (the IBM disks I have are v.quick). There's no way I can do windows NT/W2K installs in that time (you'd need half an hour on the reboots alone!).
Partitioning/Formating/Installing from a script does not an installation make. Your half hour install must be a server install. A full install of SuSE can take hours, over half a day, even on a fast computer (700 Mhz). And then comes the fun part (SuSE says have fun!): configuring your printing and soundcard; most of the things that are done automatically in Windows. Software installs generally go smoothly, DLL hell now withstanding, but that is nothing compared to the deps and intricacies of installing software on Linux. Then on using Netscape, its nothing but ugly, out of the box. Then one has the issues of SSL support and browser lockups and be sure to add plenty of memory, just like Windows.
Installing a VMWare client for Windows 98 takes longer than installing SuSE from scratch.
So what's the point here?
Also once you have KDE 2 installed, life can be very simple for even naive users.
I think you would find disagreement here from "naive users" as they stumble over printing, sound card, USB devices/support, setting up their dialup and then to have an upgrade that breaks their system.
The comparisons are unfair because very few 'naive' users buy windows systems where they have to do the initial partitioning and install themselves. They nearly always buy preloaded systems with all the MS software preinstalled.
Well, you can buy Linux the same way now from Dell, Compaq, IBM and others. Linux is gaining acceptance.
Also bear in mind that installs from vendors like SuSE have to take the trouble to worry about what windows partition's there may be on there and offer dual-host capability. No Windows install is ever gonna concern itself with non-MS software (ie viral software in the words of BG).
Bear in mind that many dual boot solutions, other than Lilo based, were done for DOS and Windows but supported Linux as well as other "foreign" operating systems. Even Linux vendors (Caldera) bundled in "DOS/Windows" Partition Managers. To enumberate the dual boot systems out there for DOS, etc: Ranish (Freeware), BootMagic, System Commander, System Selector.... And we won't tell about all the times the errant Linux install that was suppose to preserve the Windows installation would destroyed it, only leaving behind the visable but unusable partition. Not flaming. My home network consists of Windows98SE, RH 6.1, RH 7.0 and SuSE 7.2 Professional all running on their own boxes. Each operating system has it's place and use. I have bought 4 SuSE distros at full retail: 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 and 7.2 Professional and there is no doubt that it is one of if not the best distro available, especially for the "new user" even with its challenges. Somehow missed 7.1 Pro of which I would love to find a copy.... Clint
Partitioning/Formating/Installing from a script does not an installation make. Your half hour install must be a server install. A full install of SuSE can take hours, over half a day, even on a fast computer (700 Mhz). And then comes the fun part (SuSE says have fun!): configuring your printing and soundcard; most of the things that are done automatically in Windows. Software installs generally go smoothly, DLL hell now withstanding, but that is nothing compared to the deps and intricacies of installing software on Linux. Then on using Netscape, its nothing but ugly, out of the box. Then one has the issues of SSL support and browser lockups and be sure to add plenty of memory, just like Windows.
Never taken me half a day to install, but can take that for 'tweaking' and upgrading. Not the same thing as installing as you can take the same with Windows and most other os's to do the same. In 7.2 Soundcard is automatic, well apart from selecting configure sound button, which takes all of two minutes if that. The 812 printer took a little longer as I wanted to use the Beta HP driver (which works well, just don't select 0 value) as it does give better output IMHO. Never had SSL problems and only ever had rare browser lockups, but nothing recently. And hey when you get a browser lockup on Windows your whole system goes with it. Does not happen so much on Linux. Always check your memory if you start getting strange problems, memtestx86 is used extensivly and works well.
Installing a VMWare client for Windows 98 takes longer than installing SuSE from scratch.
So what's the point here?
Also once you have KDE 2 installed, life can be very simple for even naive users.
I think you would find disagreement here from "naive users" as they stumble over printing, sound card, USB devices/support, setting up their dialup and then to have an upgrade that breaks their system.
Because you have to think differently? When I plugged in my USB hub and modem it beeped and I did not have to do much...Biggest problem is people being used to Windows. DUN on Windows is very fickle to breaking, especially with those users bouncing from free month to free month...
The comparisons are unfair because very few 'naive' users buy windows systems where they have to do the initial partitioning and install themselves. They nearly always buy preloaded systems with all the MS software preinstalled.
Well, you can buy Linux the same way now from Dell, Compaq, IBM and others. Linux is gaining acceptance.
Also bear in mind that installs from vendors like SuSE have to take the trouble to worry about what windows partition's there may be on there and offer dual-host capability. No Windows install is ever gonna concern itself with non-MS software (ie viral software in the words of BG).
Bear in mind that many dual boot solutions, other than Lilo based, were done for DOS and Windows but supported Linux as well as other "foreign" operating systems. Even Linux vendors (Caldera) bundled in "DOS/Windows" Partition Managers. To enumberate the dual boot systems out there for DOS, etc: Ranish (Freeware), BootMagic, System Commander, System Selector.... And we won't tell about all the times the errant Linux install that was suppose to preserve the Windows installation would destroyed it, only leaving behind the visable but unusable partition.
With this (SuSE here) I always select custom partitioning :-). I do not trust any automatic method lol. Maybe I will try it once Windows goes.
Not flaming. My home network consists of Windows98SE, RH 6.1, RH 7.0 and SuSE 7.2 Professional all running on their own boxes. Each operating system has it's place and use. I have bought 4 SuSE distros at full retail: 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 and 7.2 Professional and there is no doubt that it is one of if not the best distro available, especially for the "new user" even with its challenges. Somehow missed 7.1 Pro of which I would love to find a copy....
Clint
Yep, cannot play too many games on Linux and .doc (excel etc too) is still an issue, especially if they use too many check boxes or such things. Learning curve still there as you need to think differently. Now IE 6 is only going to support Active X controls! Where is the DOJ? And is it too late?
Matt
participants (3)
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Clint Tinsley -
Harrell, Tim -
StarTux