Update management too confusing - was: Re: [opensuse] openSUSE 11.0 automatic update applet - does it stop running after updating?
I have just checked the Automatic Online Update Setup -Yast dialog in the rebooted system - and automatic updates are disabled! Despite the fact that I definitely enabled them as reported above. Does the automatic update run after a reboot even if it is disabled?
I will enable the functionality once again, to see if I can find out when it is getting disabled.
The extract above illustrates ideally how confusing the management of updates is at present. I was looking for the configuration of whatever it is which checks for updates and reports them in the Gnome panel - but unlike everything else to do with updates that is not in Yast but in the System control centre in the Computer dialog. I am not really sure what "Automatic Online Update Setup" is as distinct from whatever it is I am trying to use (of course I assume I could find out...), but I have obviously never used it. Apart from the entry Software Updates in the System control centre, there are several entries in Yast: Automatic Online Update, Online Update, Online Update Configuration, Software Management (which is where you actually install updates from as far as I can see) and Software Repositories, which determines where we look for the updates (I think?) Many of these names are very similar and partly obscure the underlying funtionality. We need a single dialog where the user can see the various update functions at a glance and can configure them in a coordinated way. When I say "updates" above, I in fact mean "updates, patches and whatever else such things might be called" - any distinction between the various sorts of update and how they are handled is also not really clear from the various user interfaces. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 16 August 2008 17:35:51 Michael Roberts wrote:
I have just checked the Automatic Online Update Setup -Yast dialog in the rebooted system - and automatic updates are disabled! Despite the fact that I definitely enabled them as reported above. Does the automatic update run after a reboot even if it is disabled?
I will enable the functionality once again, to see if I can find out when it is getting disabled.
The extract above illustrates ideally how confusing the management of updates is at present. I was looking for the configuration of whatever it is which checks for updates and reports them in the Gnome panel - but unlike everything else to do with updates that is not in Yast but in the System control centre in the Computer dialog. I am not really sure what "Automatic Online Update Setup" is as distinct from whatever it is I am trying to use (of course I assume I could find out...), but I have obviously never used it.
Apart from the entry Software Updates in the System control centre, there are several entries in Yast: Automatic Online Update, Online Update, Online Update Configuration, Software Management (which is where you actually install updates from as far as I can see) and Software Repositories, which determines where we look for the updates (I think?)
Many of these names are very similar and partly obscure the underlying funtionality.
We need a single dialog where the user can see the various update functions at a glance and can configure them in a coordinated way.
When I say "updates" above, I in fact mean "updates, patches and whatever else such things might be called" - any distinction between the various sorts of update and how they are handled is also not really clear from the various user interfaces.
Hey, Mr. Roberts (that's if your the "Roberts" I'm thinking of - best regards to the Dutch courts :P ). LTNS on the list. I was complaining of the same thing and all I get is canned answers. The package management system is not only confusing it's very kludgy IMHO. (but then again, I still miss the original yast1). Not only is this a confusing package system - I'm still confused as to actually how many different "package management" programs there are (yum, smart, etc,,,). Though with 11.0 seem to be whitled down to just libzypp, zypper, and PackageKit. Ironically, the SuSE updater program is tied to kde4 (not kde3 as before) and my experience with kde4 has been less than pleasant - this may explain why the update applet just cycles through check for updates,... it checks for updates, informs you of them, ask for root password and upon receiving the root password, proceeds to check updates again - and round and round we go.... never really installs anything though (kinda defeats the purpose of an update applet?) I wish when they would have had a backup so people could revert to something more stable... Oh well, I not a corporation or client - so Novell likely could care less.... pity really. Best regards, Curtis. P.S. maybe I'll see you on the Unbuntu/Kunbuntu list in the future?! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
So let me clarify what's going on with relation to online updates in
both KDE and GNOME on openSUSE 11.0.
For basic online updates (the ones offered on the update repo by
openSUSE), you will use either PackageKit in GNOME or openSUSE Updater
in KDE. Both are setup automatically to check for updates everyday and
notify you of them being available.
Both have their respective preference panes where you can set them to
install updates automatically, check for updates with varying frequency,
etc.
Third-party updates coming from repos other than openSUSE's update repo
are handled differently depending on your desktop environment. In GNOME,
they are automatically presented to you as an update, in KDE you have an
option to turn third party updates on in the preferences.
The YaST Online Update app is separate from the userland desktop apps,
although it can be used in lieu of the desktop-centric apps.
Curtis: about your point on how many package systems their are... in
11.0 libzypp is the only core package management systems. YaST, zypper,
openSUSE Updater, and PackageKit are all user interfaces (or in the case
of zypper, command line interfaces) on top of libzypp.
So think about it this way:
libzypp = Core package management system
YaST & 1-Click Install = Default ways of installing and uninstalling
packages or groups of packages
zypper = Command line interface to install, uninstall and update
packages and groups of packages
openSUSE Updater = Default software updater for the KDE desktop
PackageKit (also known in the interface as Update Software) = Default
software updater for the GNOME desktop.
I hope that clarifies some things ;-)
--
Kevin "Yo" Dupuy - openSUSE Member
Public Mail:
Hi Curtis, On Friday 15 August 2008 02:31:16 am Curtis Rey wrote:
I was complaining of the same thing and all I get is canned answers. The package management system is not only confusing it's very kludgy IMHO. (but then again, I still miss the original yast1).
There was many times question by developers, what users prefer, asking for proposals how to organize YaST user interface, and there were some discussions, and some proposals: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center so something was done. Also if you search http://lists.opensuse.org you will find large threads with very confusing messages for developers.
Not only is this a confusing package system - I'm still confused as to actually how many different "package management" programs there are (yum, smart, etc,,,).
Much more if you count other package formats than RPM.
Though with 11.0 seem to be whitled down to just libzypp, zypper, and PackageKit.
That's for openSUSE, only, and Kevin explained that in his answer.
Ironically, the SuSE updater program is tied to kde4 (not kde3 as before)
I use kde3 most of the time, moving some stuff to kde4, but I can't say it is tied to one of them. I use different user accounts for each, running KDE4 as parallel session to KDE3. I have to manually turn off one of the instances of openSUSE updater to prevent race/colision, as they work on the same underlaying system. So, they are updater is not tied to any desktop.
and my experience with kde4 has been less than pleasant -
I can believe that. It was jerky on occasions, but if you take KDE4 for what it is, a platform in development, than unpleasant surprises can be expected. Now at version 4.1 it is in much better shape than few months ago, with a lot of functionality from KDE3 ported to KDE4, but it is not replacement, yet.
this may explain why the update applet just cycles through check for updates,...
The fact that you used it with KDE4 doesn't explain anything.
it checks for updates, informs you of them, ask for root password and upon receiving the root password, proceeds to check updates again - and round and round we go.... never really installs anything though (kinda defeats the purpose of an update applet?)
Did you check what is installed and is it up to date with YaST or 'zypper if
I wish when they would have had a backup so people could revert to something more stable... Oh well, I not a corporation or client - so Novell likely could care less.... pity really.
Pity is to accuse based on wrong, or missing information, or misinterpretation of reality. First, what kind of backup or reverting to more stable we are taliking about. At the package level rollback exists for years. In YaST select update and select version, than package will be updated or rolled back, depends what version you selected. Those that want to rollback software to previous working version and miss to click on version tab don't exist. Problem is just word update, but even than rolling trough options what one can do with package and trying to provoke change leaves only this as option. The backup tools are present, so telling that some 'they' should have backup is shifting responsibility, from users that have to create backup, as they are the only people that know what to backup, to developers that still don't use crystal ball to guess what one would want to remember, ie. backup. To find backup tools is as complicated as to open YaST Software Management and type word backup in a search field to see the offer? On the other hand you can't push down the throat of every user solution that is asking him to learn how to use backup software. Not many will be happy with system asking for bunch of DVDs to make backup, and hard disk is not real solution. The general option to provide, as one of YaST modules, tool to roll back harmful changes was discussed on development mail lists, but even Novell can't develop all at once. There have to be set priorities. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
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Curtis Rey -
Kevin Dupuy -
Michael Roberts -
Rajko M.