Heck! I sent a mail to feedback@suse.de, about a kernel bug report, and I got this:
Please note that the email address you sent your message to (feedback@suse.de) is no longer in use. Of course you still can send us your ideas, comments and bug reports related to our products! Please use our web pages:
Why, SuSE, why? :-(((( Browsing costs more money than email - to me, at least: my connection is paid by the minute. And it needs more time, some minutes. What is the reason for removing it? Money? Staff? They think a web page is nicer? Cuter perhaps? I can not understand it, whatever the reason. And before anybody says that this is not the place for this rant, I have two reasons: 1) I already wrote in the web form what I thought. 2) Perhaps some other listers think like me and will complain as well - in the web form, of course. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On Sat, 2003-09-06 at 11:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Browsing costs more money than email - to me, at least: my connection is paid by the minute. And it needs more time, some minutes.
I agree - typing while the meter's running is not fun. I definitely won't send them anything as easily as I used to - I have written to them before simply to give them my monitor's specs so they can include it in a next release. I think if everybody who has hardware that don't detect right or well send the specs to SuSE, it will help them a lot. But if I have to pay for the time online I'm less likely to. Hans
"Carlos E. R." <robin1.listas@tiscali.es> [6 Sep 2003 11:52]:
Please note that the email address you sent your message to (feedback@suse.de) is no longer in use. Of course you still can send us your ideas, comments and bug reports related to our products! Please use our web pages:
Why, SuSE, why? :-(((( [...] What is the reason for removing it? Money? Staff? They think a web page is nicer? Cuter perhaps? I can not understand it, whatever the reason.
As I'm part of the feedback team I can tell you exactly why: a) because it's a ratio of about 1 serious feedback mail per 100-200 spam mails. These include the useless "virus detected" and similar mails. And before you ask, we *did* use spamassassin otherwise it would have been more like 1000 / 1. But we couldn't filter as hard as we liked, because that would have possibly rejected valid mail. So those from the feedback team first had to weed out all the junk before starting serious work. These are hours spent for nothing which isn't very cost effective. b) Many feedback mail lack basic information needed to work on it (like the Version of SuSE Linux etc.). So the first mail to the customer has to ask for that info. Again this is much time spent for nothing. Web and email ran in parallel for a long time, but lately the amount of junk that came in via mail just got so much in comparison to the real feedback mails that we simply had to switch off the mail address.
2) Perhaps some other listers think like me and will complain as well - in the web form, of course.
Feel free to do so :) Chances are high that you'll (more or less) get the same answer as you do now. Philipp -- Philipp Thomas work: pthomas AT suse DOT de private: philipp DOT thomas AT t-link DOT de
On Sat, Sep 06, 2003 at 07:41:46PM +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <robin1.listas@tiscali.es> [6 Sep 2003 11:52]:
Why, SuSE, why? :-((((
As I'm part of the feedback team I can tell you exactly why:
a) because it's a ratio of about 1 serious feedback mail per 100-200 spam
b) Many feedback mail lack basic information needed to work on it (like the Version of SuSE Linux etc.). So the first mail to the customer has to ask for that info. Again this is much time spent for nothing.
This is just thinking out loud o.k? First off, I rarely if ever contacted feedback@suse, but if I was ever going to, I too, would *much* prefer email over a web form. Now, the recent thread on timestamped email addresses, and the way that the domain-authority in Denmark (dk-hostmaster.dk) handles some parts of the registration, gave me an idea. What they do is *require* you to fill out this 'form' which is basically a textfile that has all the 'fields' ready to fill in, and then mail it to them in a plain/text/non-html email with $yadayada requirements about line length and so on. This is clearly to make all that mail machine readable. I don't know what happens if you fail to live up to all that, but my guess is they /dev/null the mail without so much as blinking. So what I'm getting at is; Would it not be possible/feasible to set up a similar kind of system for feedback@suse, where the whole process goes more or less like this; 1: $USER sends a feedback 'request' to request@feedback.suse.com 2: feedback.suse.com returns a 'form' (sort of) email with a unique timestamped/numbered "RequestID" (RID) reply-to: address 3: $USER receives the above mail, hits 'reply' and may now (guided by the 'fields' such as "SuSE version:..." etc) fill in the 'form' at his leasure. 4: $USER hits 'send' and the mail now goes to 12345XYzWhatEver@feedback.suse.com 5: feedback.suse.com gets the mail, and recognizes that 12345XYzWhatEver is valid, and hands it off to whatever processing comes next. (e.g. spamassassin, procmail to check whether the the 'required' fields are filled in, etc...) 6: Mail finally arrives at someones mailbox to be taken care of. Advantages would be to retain (well kind of anyway...) email based communication, while *seriously* reducing the amount of spam that the feedback team has to wade through. The "challenge/response" scheme could be set up different ways, but if it were set up so that f.x. a request *requiered* $USER to send an *empty* message to request@feedback.suse.com, then 99% spam would die right there. This would allow the server to look at these conditions; 1: anything *but* 'request' or valid RID -> /dev/null 2: 'request' && non-empty? -> /dev/null thus eliminating tons of junk very early in the process. Additionally, having people fill in a 'form' of some sort could possibly increase the value of the feedback, in that; a: Presenting $USER with a number of fields (required, optional) will get $USER to put in stuff that he would not have thought of himself b: The increased 'cumbersome'-ness of filling in such a form will keep people from just mailing junk, hence possibly increasing the signal/noise ratio. c: Having people adhere to a pretty strict format, would allow for *very* hard "spamassassination": html? -> /dev/null Any 'required' fields missing? -> /dev/null "Viagra", "Mortgage", etc... -> /dev/null Line length > $LIMIT ? -> /dev/null Disadvantages would be; 1: Having to come up with the system 2: CPU cycles. 3: ...errr, dunno... anyone?
Web and email ran in parallel for a long time, but lately the amount of junk that came in via mail just got so much in comparison to the real feedback mails that we simply had to switch off the mail address.
2) Perhaps some other listers think like me and will complain as well - in the web form, of course.
Feel free to do so :) Chances are high that you'll (more or less) get the same answer as you do now.
O.K. tell me I'm rambling ;) /Jon -- Whatever rocks your boat!
On Saturday 06 September 2003 20:38, Jon Clausen rambled on: [ SNIP long description af challenge response ] Wouldn't it be much simpler to set it up as or like a subscriber only mailing list? A subscribed user can post, and can then get direct replies. The only stuff coming out of the list could be admin stuff. Could even be linked to a news announcement bulletin... Dylan -- Sweet moderation Heart of this nation Desert us not We are between the wars - Billy Bragg
On Sun, Sep 07, 2003 at 02:55:21AM +0100, Dylan wrote:
On Saturday 06 September 2003 20:38, Jon Clausen rambled on:
[ SNIP long description af challenge response ]
Wouldn't it be much simpler to set it up as or like a subscriber only mailing list?
Quite. Subscription in it self, however, would do little to improve on the 'quality' of the feedback. Like I said, I was only thinking out loud ;)
A subscribed user can post, and can then get direct replies. The only stuff coming out of the list could be admin stuff. Could even be linked to a news announcement bulletin...
Indeed. -- Whatever rocks your boat!
On Sunday 07 September 2003 11:04, Jon Clausen wrote:
On Sun, Sep 07, 2003 at 02:55:21AM +0100, Dylan wrote:
On Saturday 06 September 2003 20:38, Jon Clausen rambled on:
[ SNIP long description af challenge response ]
Wouldn't it be much simpler to set it up as or like a subscriber only mailing list?
Quite. Subscription in it self, however, would do little to improve on the 'quality' of the feedback.
Yes, but it would eliminate the vast majority of spam, if not necessarily virus posts. Dylan -- Sweet moderation Heart of this nation Desert us not We are between the wars - Billy Bragg
The 03.09.07 at 16:29, Dylan wrote:
Quite. Subscription in it self, however, would do little to improve on the 'quality' of the feedback.
Yes, but it would eliminate the vast majority of spam, if not necessarily virus posts.
It could be as simple as using a registration code. Or storing the adresses used in the registration form, and only acepting feedback email from them. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
The 03.09.06 at 19:41, Philipp Thomas wrote:
a) because it's a ratio of about 1 serious feedback mail per 100-200 spam mails. These include the useless "virus detected" and similar mails.
I thought that would be one reason; perhaps you mentioned it time ago.
And before you ask, we *did* use spamassassin otherwise it would have been more like 1000 / 1. But we couldn't filter as hard as we liked, because that would have possibly rejected valid mail. So those from the feedback team first had to weed out all the junk before starting serious work. These are hours spent for nothing which isn't very cost effective.
Ok, I understand that. I'll give you some ideas: acceptance of the email could be tied, for example, to the email having a pgp signature, a valid client number, o a registration number of some sort. Only email passing this filter would be automatically forwarded. I think you already have some automated filters of that sort for the support email address.
b) Many feedback mail lack basic information needed to work on it (like the Version of SuSE Linux etc.). So the first mail to the customer has to ask for that info. Again this is much time spent for nothing.
Ok, another idea, then. There could be a local program that generates forms for feed back, even a plain text form to be filled. I think I saw such a thing in kde, but I'm using gnome. I think there is an application in gnome and/or kde that automatically generates a bug report when something crashes, that has to be filled, ant it generates an email. Couldn't something like that be done? As part of yast and/or a separate app? It could automatically take registration data, and system info like versions.
Web and email ran in parallel for a long time, but lately the amount of junk that came in via mail just got so much in comparison to the real feedback mails that we simply had to switch off the mail address.
I can imagine... I'm receiving my part of them, just because I participate in this list. You have seen perhaps my comment on that, how to block .pif in postfix and such... In your case, it must be much worse. There has been comment on an antispam measure that consists on auto responding to the "from" address, requesting and answer within a time frame. If he responds, he is added to a white list, and the original email goes on. I don't know how client/users would react to it, however.
2) Perhaps some other listers think like me and will complain as well - in the web form, of course.
Feel free to do so :) Chances are high that you'll (more or less) get the same answer as you do now.
Well... I'd like SuSE to accept email, even if they request a registration number and/or pgp signature and/or challenge/response email. Better than nothing. And I appreciate your previous comments on this :-) -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On Saturday 06 September 2003 09:41, Philipp Thomas wrote:
2) Perhaps some other listers think like me and will complain as well - in the web form, of course.
Feel free to do so :) Chances are high that you'll (more or less) get the same answer as you do now.
Great customer relations effort there, Philipp. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen
Feel free to do so :) Chances are high that you'll (more or less) get the same answer as you do now.
Great customer relations effort there, Philipp. I suppose it's been asked before, but why not set up some SuSE web forums using one of the bulletin boards? User registration would keep out spammers and the like. SuSE does not have to support them in the sense of answering queries. However, a very good body of knowledge would soon build up there, especially for new users. Many computer users, I suspect, rather expect to find this now and many, many companies including pleny of small ones offer them. I can't imagine that it's all that much of an expense. :) Fish
On Saturday 06 September 2003 10:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Heck!
I sent a mail to feedback@suse.de, about a kernel bug report, and I got
this:
Please note that the email address you sent your message to (feedback@suse.de) is no longer in use. Of course you still can send us your ideas, comments and bug reports related to our products! Please use our web pages:
Why, SuSE, why? :-((((
Browsing costs more money than email - to me, at least: my connection is paid by the minute. And it needs more time, some minutes.
Here's two solutions... A - compose your message in a text editor and paste it into the box. B - load the page, disconnect, fill it in, reconnect, sent the form. £0.02 Dylan -- Sweet moderation Heart of this nation Desert us not We are between the wars - Billy Bragg
The 03.09.06 at 18:57, Dylan wrote:
Here's two solutions...
A - compose your message in a text editor and paste it into the box.
That's what I did. The page allows for importing files, so I imported my exported email directly.
B - load the page, disconnect, fill it in, reconnect, sent the form.
Mmmm. Each connection costs extra money. I'm unsure if one or two minutes are charged per connection attempt, even a failed one. I other words, the phone company charges one minute in advance, minimun. When I do that, I must be sure that I't will take me some minutes to fill the form, and that the web page will not reject me on the next phase when it sees a different IP. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On Saturday 06 September 2003 21:22, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The 03.09.06 at 18:57, Dylan wrote: <SNIP>
B - load the page, disconnect, fill it in, reconnect, sent the form.
Mmmm. Each connection costs extra money. I'm unsure if one or two minutes are charged per connection attempt, even a failed one. I other words, the phone company charges one minute in advance, minimun.
Just how much are you paying per minute?
When I do that, I must be sure that I't will take me some minutes to fill the form,
I'd have thought you'd have a fair idea of how long your comment will take to enter before you start...
and that the web page will not reject me on the next phase when it sees a different IP.
Doubt it - your IP could change dynamically while you were sitting filling in the form anyway. Session management isn't usually tied to IP because of DHCP, NAT, etc... Dylan
-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
-- Sweet moderation Heart of this nation Desert us not We are between the wars - Billy Bragg
The 03.09.07 at 02:58, Dylan wrote:
Mmmm. Each connection costs extra money. I'm unsure if one or two minutes are charged per connection attempt, even a failed one. I other words, the phone company charges one minute in advance, minimun.
Just how much are you paying per minute?
I don't exactly know, beacuse the receipt doesn't specify the amount per minute, and how it varies during the day. It's not so easy to find out. But I can give you some samples from this last two month receipt (27.4 Eur + tax in internet calls, 28.7 hours total usage): I have a 4 seconds call charged at .0685 Eur, plus taxes. Another one, 12' 23", 0.1642 Eur. A 1h 12' 32" was charged 1.2903 Eur. It is afordable, but I wouldn't say free. Time is money, even if I'm just waiting without anything downloading. By the way, the fixed or flat rate conection, which would allow me to connect anytime from 18:00 to 8:00 (weekends the 24:00) I think costs about 20 or 30 Eur a month; I'll have to check, but it is even more expensive for my limited use.
When I do that, I must be sure that I't will take me some minutes to fill the form,
I'd have thought you'd have a fair idea of how long your comment will take to enter before you start...
Not if it is the first time I see the form :-)
and that the web page will not reject me on the next phase when it sees a different IP.
Doubt it - your IP could change dynamically while you were sitting filling in the form anyway.
Er... no. During on call the IP can not change. On a new call it certainly changes. The negotiation takes part only at the begining of the call.
Session management isn't usually tied to IP because of DHCP, NAT, etc...
I suppose that web pages keep track of the user by means of cookies, but i can not be completely sure, specially on encrypted pages of banks and such. In such cases I think I would keep track of the IP, and even more, record it in the transaction logs. I'm no expert on that, but that would be my first thought. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
The 03.09.07 at 02:58, Dylan wrote:
Just how much are you paying per minute?
Found the exact price: per minute + per call (at unhook) Local 0.0240 0.0685 Eur Local reduced rate 0.0099 0.0685 Eur (night) And then add taxes to the above: 16% VAT (IVA). There are some cheaper companies, but that's another history. So... the one hour browsing I had to do this morning will have a cost of 1.75 Eur :-( -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 15:13, Carlos E. R. wrote:
per minute + per call (at unhook) Local 0.0240 0.0685 Eur Local reduced rate 0.0099 0.0685 Eur (night)
And then add taxes to the above: 16% VAT (IVA). There are some cheaper companies, but that's another history. So... the one hour browsing I had to do this morning will have a cost of 1.75 Eur :-(
-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
I feel your pain, brother :-) Here it's 0.16 after hours, 0.58 during the day. I know, our money isn't worth as much as Euros, but if you consider avarage earnings it's quite expensive. Hans
The 03.09.16 at 00:17, H du Plooy wrote:
I feel your pain, brother :-) Here it's 0.16 after hours, 0.58 during the day. I know, our money isn't worth as much as Euros, but if you consider avarage earnings it's quite expensive.
Ah, of course. In term of wages and life cost, an euro in Spain is not the same as in Germany, for example :-) It is not easy to compare prices. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
participants (7)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Dylan -
H du Plooy -
John Andersen -
Jon Clausen -
Mark Crean -
Philipp Thomas