Dear List members I just thought that I would post some of my thoughts after struggling with Linux for the last couple of months. The reason for giving linux a go came as a request from my manager as we thought it would be ideal for some of our computing requirements, cost I believe was the major issue here. So SUSE 7.1 professional was purchased and installed on a HP vectra machine. Installation was straight forward and connection to the network a zip. Well straight forward, hmmm, the sound card is not configured, a generic driver was automatically selected for the video card. I tried install the correct driver for the g450 card. The driver didn't work. So I cannot use the full functionality if the card:-(. The first thing I tried was surfing the webb using Konquerer. What a pain. Some sites caused the browser to crash (aarrgghh!!), playing movies and streaming sound have proved too difficult to achieve. Installed real player 8 (couldn't get it to work). So I have found linux not very multi media friendly. I then started to use the Netscape browser instead. Arrgghhh !!!! some webb sites the text is displayed so small you cant read the information. I have tried increasing the font size but to no avail. If I click on an image to display it with the browser I get an error saying that without xv it can't be displayed ?????? I have been unable to connect to chat rooms. I would like to use ICQ but have been unable to get it to work. So not to be deterred I thought I would try and install some work related software. The first thing I tried was to install IBM's DB2 for linux. I followed the installation process exaclty. Guess what it didn't work. No DB2 very bad. We do alot of REXX programming here so I thought I would install REXX from the ibm site. Even had the help of a Unix body who knows linux well. We performed the install steps. Guess what - we could'nt get it to work. As an alternative I was given oracle on a cd. Ran the program to perform the install. Guess what it didn't work. Bought a Linux magazine because it contained Sun Forte for Java. I follow the easy install steps as instructed by the magazine. Ran the executable that was supposed to start the program. All that happened was after pressing enter I saw the prompt again. So guess what it didn't work. Thought I would give linux one last chance. For fun I decide to install Achilles artificial life program. Downloaded the tar ball. Then went the whole hog of installing SDL (failed couldn't locate the header file ???? I could'nt find these either) continued regardless and tried to install the graphic environment from www.mesa3d.org. Performing the install failed because it could'nt locate the GLUT files ???? Gave up .... I have now given up on linux. Other than the applications supplied with the SUSE cd I have not been able to install anything successfully. Even some apps installed from the cd don't work. I have read so many manuals and how to's that my head spins. Not knowing what the author is referring to half the time. At work we have decided not to go ahead with linux, we are finding it just too difficult, frustrating and time consuming. Two days spent trying to install DB2 to have it not work is man hours we can't afford to waste. I will continue to learn about linux and increase what little knowledge I have already. I take some comfort from the fact that somebody who is familiar with linux has not been able to help. So perhaps I am not the idiot I was beginning to think I was. I still have it installed on a second partition and use Linux as more of a hobby machine. The real work stuff is done on windows. With time and a little more knowledge I hope to try linux again as with linux you feel that you are actually getting your fingers dirty. Sorry for such a long winded vent. I know people here think linux is great, but this has not been my experience. I hope I dont get flamed too much for this email. Kindest regards Neil
Hi Neal, Maybe before you gave up on linux, you could have posted a few questions on this list: users are here to help you, you know.... Greetings, Nash P.S. You will probably be flamed (a lot) On Friday 15 June 2001 14:20, you wrote:
Dear List members
I just thought that I would post some of my thoughts after struggling with Linux for the last couple of months. The reason for giving linux a go came as a request from my manager as we thought it would be ideal for some of our computing requirements, cost I believe was the major issue here.
So SUSE 7.1 professional was purchased and installed on a HP vectra machine. Installation was straight forward and connection to the network a zip. Well straight forward, hmmm, the sound card is not configured, a generic driver was automatically selected for the video card. I tried install the correct driver for the g450 card. The driver didn't work. So I cannot use the full functionality if the card:-(.
The first thing I tried was surfing the webb using Konquerer. What a pain. Some sites caused the browser to crash (aarrgghh!!), playing movies and streaming sound have proved too difficult to achieve. Installed real player 8 (couldn't get it to work). So I have found linux not very multi media friendly.
I then started to use the Netscape browser instead. Arrgghhh !!!! some webb sites the text is displayed so small you cant read the information. I have tried increasing the font size but to no avail. If I click on an image to display it with the browser I get an error saying that without xv it can't be displayed ?????? I have been unable to connect to chat rooms. I would like to use ICQ but have been unable to get it to work.
So not to be deterred I thought I would try and install some work related software. The first thing I tried was to install IBM's DB2 for linux. I followed the installation process exaclty. Guess what it didn't work. No DB2 very bad.
We do alot of REXX programming here so I thought I would install REXX from the ibm site. Even had the help of a Unix body who knows linux well. We performed the install steps. Guess what - we could'nt get it to work. As an alternative I was given oracle on a cd. Ran the program to perform the install. Guess what it didn't work.
Bought a Linux magazine because it contained Sun Forte for Java. I follow the easy install steps as instructed by the magazine. Ran the executable that was supposed to start the program. All that happened was after pressing enter I saw the prompt again. So guess what it didn't work.
Thought I would give linux one last chance. For fun I decide to install Achilles artificial life program. Downloaded the tar ball. Then went the whole hog of installing SDL (failed couldn't locate the header file ???? I could'nt find these either) continued regardless and tried to install the graphic environment from www.mesa3d.org. Performing the install failed because it could'nt locate the GLUT files ???? Gave up ....
I have now given up on linux. Other than the applications supplied with the SUSE cd I have not been able to install anything successfully. Even some apps installed from the cd don't work. I have read so many manuals and how to's that my head spins. Not knowing what the author is referring to half the time.
At work we have decided not to go ahead with linux, we are finding it just too difficult, frustrating and time consuming. Two days spent trying to install DB2 to have it not work is man hours we can't afford to waste. I will continue to learn about linux and increase what little knowledge I have already. I take some comfort from the fact that somebody who is familiar with linux has not been able to help. So perhaps I am not the idiot I was beginning to think I was. I still have it installed on a second partition and use Linux as more of a hobby machine. The real work stuff is done on windows. With time and a little more knowledge I hope to try linux again as with linux you feel that you are actually getting your fingers dirty.
Sorry for such a long winded vent. I know people here think linux is great, but this has not been my experience. I hope I dont get flamed too much for this email.
Kindest regards Neil
"Briggs, N. - Neil -" wrote:
Dear List members
I just thought that I would post some of my thoughts after struggling with Linux for the last couple of months. The reason for giving linux a go came as a request from my manager as we thought it would be ideal for some of our computing requirements, cost I believe was the major issue here.
Sorry for such a long winded vent. I know people here think linux is great, but this has not been my experience. I hope I dont get flamed too much for this email.
Hi, I hope you won't get flamed because everyone sees with his own eyes... Linux is great, regarding what you want to do with it, and it's friendly, yes... but you have to work a while.... Of course, it's not as easy as a windows PC, but do you remember when you had to struggle with soundcards and network cards etc when it was the terrible dos/windows duet... As linux is quite young regarding its multimedia ability, you can't ask it to be as easy as another well established OS. Though it doesn't mean that you can't do things.... You just have to go deeper in the system... Since it is done, then your system will rock, and you'll probably be more than happy with it... first because it will be more than efficient, then because you'll have it done YOUR way, with what YOU wanted, without having things that doesn't interested you.... And with my beginner point of view, you'll be proud to make things running at the first attempt... and I don't know many of users that can be proud of a rocking system excepts linux users... As a conclusion, Linux is the best, as windows is the best, as amigaOS is the best (hi to all amiga veteran ;-) ).... It all depends on what you want to do with it, and the involvement level you can spare on it... You'll often find linux users as "monopoly fighters"... The point is not to change from one monopoly to another... it's only to get the freedom to choose one os or another without fearing to be "outlaws" whenever you're not amongst the majority.... Linux may not be the most interesting system for you now, it may won't be ever, as windows may not be a good system at all for most of us here... :)) But I respect you're point of view... any OS is good only if it fits its users needs.... don't do because you're told, do because you want :))) Regards Stéphane
It is true that, when you're new to linux, you have to spend some/a lot of time to begin working with it, depending of what you want to do with it. But once you're getting used to it, you begin to start feeling how to let things work. It took me about 1 year and a half to switch completely from windows to linux, the last 9 months of that period I used Windows solely for games. I know that people, especialy when they come from a Windows environment, want things to work right out of the box. But a lot of linux things don't even have a box (yet). Mainly because too many companies don't want to spend too much money on linux bcause, although the market is growing, it is still small. So patience and some rtfm is required. The konqueror you used wasn't probably the latest version, one thing you can't say about linux(-programs) is that the bugs don't get fixed. The rest of your browser issues were probably configuration stuff. The xv error for example is just because netscapes preferences were set to display images with the xv imageviewer which you probably had not installed. The rest of your problems were probably installation issues already solved by somebody on the list. If you would have asked here (The only post in the archives from you I could find was from April?) maybe your company was using linux now. Linux might not always seem as user friendly as windows but it is catching up. Just a little more patience is required. And, to be honest, I find linux already user friendlier than Windows. I have seen errors too, but there was always an explanation and mostly a cure for it. Unlike Windows which somteimes seems to generate errors randomly. regards,
From Briggs, N. - Neil - to suse-linux-e@suse.com about [SLE] Linux newbie...:
Dear List members
I just thought that I would post some of my thoughts after struggling with Linux for the last couple of months. The reason for giving linux a go came as a request from my manager as we thought it would be ideal for some of our computing requirements, cost I believe was the major issue here.
So SUSE 7.1 professional was purchased and installed on a HP vectra machine. Installation was straight forward and connection to the network a zip. Well straight forward, hmmm, the sound card is not configured, a generic driver was automatically selected for the video card. I tried install the correct driver for the g450 card. The driver didn't work. So I cannot use the full functionality if the card:-(.
The first thing I tried was surfing the webb using Konquerer. What a pain. Some sites caused the browser to crash (aarrgghh!!), playing movies and streaming sound have proved too difficult to achieve. Installed real player 8 (couldn't get it to work). So I have found linux not very multi media friendly.
I then started to use the Netscape browser instead. Arrgghhh !!!! some webb sites the text is displayed so small you cant read the information. I have tried increasing the font size but to no avail. If I click on an image to display it with the browser I get an error saying that without xv it can't be displayed ?????? I have been unable to connect to chat rooms. I would like to use ICQ but have been unable to get it to work.
So not to be deterred I thought I would try and install some work related software. The first thing I tried was to install IBM's DB2 for linux. I followed the installation process exaclty. Guess what it didn't work. No DB2 very bad.
We do alot of REXX programming here so I thought I would install REXX from the ibm site. Even had the help of a Unix body who knows linux well. We performed the install steps. Guess what - we could'nt get it to work. As an alternative I was given oracle on a cd. Ran the program to perform the install. Guess what it didn't work.
Bought a Linux magazine because it contained Sun Forte for Java. I follow the easy install steps as instructed by the magazine. Ran the executable that was supposed to start the program. All that happened was after pressing enter I saw the prompt again. So guess what it didn't work.
Thought I would give linux one last chance. For fun I decide to install Achilles artificial life program. Downloaded the tar ball. Then went the whole hog of installing SDL (failed couldn't locate the header file ???? I could'nt find these either) continued regardless and tried to install the graphic environment from www.mesa3d.org. Performing the install failed because it could'nt locate the GLUT files ???? Gave up ....
I have now given up on linux. Other than the applications supplied with the SUSE cd I have not been able to install anything successfully. Even some apps installed from the cd don't work. I have read so many manuals and how to's that my head spins. Not knowing what the author is referring to half the time.
At work we have decided not to go ahead with linux, we are finding it just too difficult, frustrating and time consuming. Two days spent trying to install DB2 to have it not work is man hours we can't afford to waste. I will continue to learn about linux and increase what little knowledge I have already. I take some comfort from the fact that somebody who is familiar with linux has not been able to help. So perhaps I am not the idiot I was beginning to think I was. I still have it installed on a second partition and use Linux as more of a hobby machine. The real work stuff is done on windows. With time and a little more knowledge I hope to try linux again as with linux you feel that you are actually getting your fingers dirty.
Sorry for such a long winded vent. I know people here think linux is great, but this has not been my experience. I hope I dont get flamed too much for this email.
Kindest regards Neil
-- dieter
dieter wrote:
It is true that, when you're new to linux, you have to spend some/a lot of time to begin working with it, depending of what you want to do with it. But once you're getting used to it, you begin to start feeling how to let things work. It took me about 1 year and a half to switch completely from windows to linux, the last 9 months of that period I used Windows solely for games.
I know that people, especialy when they come from a Windows environment, want things to work right out of the box. But a lot of linux things don't even have a box (yet). Mainly because too many companies don't want to spend too much money on linux bcause, although the market is growing, it is still small.
So patience and some rtfm is required. The konqueror you used wasn't probably the latest version, one thing you can't say about linux(-programs) is that the bugs don't get fixed. The rest of your browser issues were probably configuration stuff. The xv error for example is just because netscapes preferences were set to display images with the xv imageviewer which you probably had not installed. The rest of your problems were probably installation issues already solved by somebody on the list. If you would have asked here (The only post in the archives from you I could find was from April?) maybe your company was using linux now.
Linux might not always seem as user friendly as windows but it is catching up. Just a little more patience is required. And, to be honest, I find linux already user friendlier than Windows. I have seen errors too, but there was always an explanation and mostly a cure for it. Unlike Windows which somteimes seems to generate errors randomly.
regards,
From Briggs, N. - Neil - to suse-linux-e@suse.com about [SLE] Linux newbie...:
Dear List members
I just thought that I would post some of my thoughts after struggling with Linux for the last couple of months. The reason for giving linux a go came as a request from my manager as we thought it would be ideal for some of our computing requirements, cost I believe was the major issue here.
So SUSE 7.1 professional was purchased and installed on a HP vectra machine. Installation was straight forward and connection to the network a zip. Well straight forward, hmmm, the sound card is not configured, a generic driver was automatically selected for the video card. I tried install the correct driver for the g450 card. The driver didn't work. So I cannot use the full functionality if the card:-(.
The first thing I tried was surfing the webb using Konquerer. What a pain. Some sites caused the browser to crash (aarrgghh!!), playing movies and streaming sound have proved too difficult to achieve. Installed real player 8 (couldn't get it to work). So I have found linux not very multi media friendly.
I then started to use the Netscape browser instead. Arrgghhh !!!! some webb sites the text is displayed so small you cant read the information. I have tried increasing the font size but to no avail. If I click on an image to display it with the browser I get an error saying that without xv it can't be displayed ?????? I have been unable to connect to chat rooms. I would like to use ICQ but have been unable to get it to work.
So not to be deterred I thought I would try and install some work related software. The first thing I tried was to install IBM's DB2 for linux. I followed the installation process exaclty. Guess what it didn't work. No DB2 very bad.
We do alot of REXX programming here so I thought I would install REXX from the ibm site. Even had the help of a Unix body who knows linux well. We performed the install steps. Guess what - we could'nt get it to work. As an alternative I was given oracle on a cd. Ran the program to perform the install. Guess what it didn't work.
Bought a Linux magazine because it contained Sun Forte for Java. I follow the easy install steps as instructed by the magazine. Ran the executable that was supposed to start the program. All that happened was after pressing enter I saw the prompt again. So guess what it didn't work.
Thought I would give linux one last chance. For fun I decide to install Achilles artificial life program. Downloaded the tar ball. Then went the whole hog of installing SDL (failed couldn't locate the header file ???? I could'nt find these either) continued regardless and tried to install the graphic environment from www.mesa3d.org. Performing the install failed because it could'nt locate the GLUT files ???? Gave up ....
I have now given up on linux. Other than the applications supplied with the SUSE cd I have not been able to install anything successfully. Even some apps installed from the cd don't work. I have read so many manuals and how to's that my head spins. Not knowing what the author is referring to half the time.
At work we have decided not to go ahead with linux, we are finding it just too difficult, frustrating and time consuming. Two days spent trying to install DB2 to have it not work is man hours we can't afford to waste. I will continue to learn about linux and increase what little knowledge I have already. I take some comfort from the fact that somebody who is familiar with linux has not been able to help. So perhaps I am not the idiot I was beginning to think I was. I still have it installed on a second partition and use Linux as more of a hobby machine. The real work stuff is done on windows. With time and a little more knowledge I hope to try linux again as with linux you feel that you are actually getting your fingers dirty.
Sorry for such a long winded vent. I know people here think linux is great, but this has not been my experience. I hope I dont get flamed too much for this email.
Kindest regards Neil
Maybe its not ready for you yet....Try again around December...With the pace of change most your issues will be improved. Matt
So I have found linux not very multi media friendly.
Multimedia is packed with proprietary formats and is dominated by the Windows and Mac platforms. Linux lags behind a bit in this respect because some companies don't provide Linux support for their products and protocols (Microsoft being the obvious one) and others push the other platforms and only get around to Linux as an afterthought. Things like DVD movie playing have arrived but the legal people are trying to put a stop to it. Linux is not a great multimedia platform; sad but true. But it's getting there...
I then started to use the Netscape browser instead. Arrgghhh !!!! some webb sites the text is displayed so small you cant read the information. I have tried increasing the font size but to no avail.
Netscape is a piece of crap. You're hardly the only one to suffer with that! Ironically, the problem you hightlight - small fonts - is actually not a Netscape fault. It's due to some web site designers designing only for Windows clients. You can get a set of fonts which look and scale just like the default ones used by IE5; installing those makes Netscape much more usable. My suggestion: dump Netscape and upgrade your KDE-2.0.1 from the SuSE-7.1 disrto to KDE-2.1.2 from the SuSE ftp site. Konqueror from 2.1.2 is all you'll need for 95% of your browsing needs.
If I click on an image to display it with the browser I get an error saying that without xv it can't be displayed ??????
Install the xv package from the pay series.
I have been unable to connect to chat rooms. I would like to use ICQ but have been unable to get it to work.
Not sure what you mean by chat rooms. I use IRC and ICQ all the time. Post some details of the problems.
So not to be deterred I thought I would try and install some work related software. The first thing I tried was to install IBM's DB2 for linux. I followed the installation process exaclty. Guess what it didn't work. No DB2 very bad.
DB2 isn't my thing, so I can't help. It's known to work very efficiently when you do get it going though.
We do alot of REXX programming here so I thought I would install REXX from the ibm site. Even had the help of a Unix body who knows linux well. We performed the install steps. Guess what - we could'nt get it to work. As an alternative I was given oracle on a cd. Ran the program to perform the install. Guess what it didn't work.
Dunno about REXX installation but several people use it around here on Linux. For Oracle help you should join the SuSE Oracle list. Very knowledgable folks hang out there.
Bought a Linux magazine because it contained Sun Forte for Java. I follow the easy install steps as instructed by the magazine. Ran the executable that was supposed to start the program. All that happened was after pressing enter I saw the prompt again. So guess what it didn't work.
I downloaded Forte for Java and it worked straight "out of the box". Sounds like the magazine distribution of it is screwed up. Also, it could be your Java installation - that might explain the Oracle problem too, because that has a Java based installer.
Sorry for such a long winded vent. I know people here think linux is great, but this has not been my experience. I hope I dont get flamed too much for this email.
This is the most reaonably worded vent I've seen on this list for a long time! I normally just hit delete, but I thought I'd take the trouble to respond to yours. There's no doubt that installing complex Linux applications still isn't as easy as it is for Windows, but believe me, it's much easier than it was 3 years ago. Progress is being made. Your problem is quite obvious: you're trying to run before you can walk. You need to get into the Linux community a bit more and learn where the people are who can help you. How many people have you asked? How many mailing lists have you joined? Which newsgroups have you posted to? It does kind of bug me that often the first the Linux community hears about a newbie having problems is when that newbie throws up their hands and says "I'm giving up!". You need to focus on a single problem and get some help sorting it out. One thing at a time. So, pick one of your problems and ask on this list. suse-e is one of the best places for getting help that I know of.
Derek Fountain wrote:
So I have found linux not very multi media friendly.
Multimedia is packed with proprietary formats and is dominated by the Windows and Mac platforms. Linux lags behind a bit in this respect because some companies don't provide Linux support for their products and protocols (Microsoft being the obvious one) and others push the other platforms and only get around to Linux as an afterthought. Things like DVD movie playing have arrived but the legal people are trying to put a stop to it. Linux is not a great multimedia platform; sad but true. But it's getting there...
I then started to use the Netscape browser instead. Arrgghhh !!!! some webb sites the text is displayed so small you cant read the information. I have tried increasing the font size but to no avail.
Netscape is a piece of crap. You're hardly the only one to suffer with that! Ironically, the problem you hightlight - small fonts - is actually not a Netscape fault. It's due to some web site designers designing only for Windows clients. You can get a set of fonts which look and scale just like the default ones used by IE5; installing those makes Netscape much more usable.
My suggestion: dump Netscape and upgrade your KDE-2.0.1 from the SuSE-7.1 disrto to KDE-2.1.2 from the SuSE ftp site. Konqueror from 2.1.2 is all you'll need for 95% of your browsing needs.
If I click on an image to display it with the browser I get an error saying that without xv it can't be displayed ??????
Install the xv package from the pay series.
I have been unable to connect to chat rooms. I would like to use ICQ but have been unable to get it to work.
Not sure what you mean by chat rooms. I use IRC and ICQ all the time. Post some details of the problems.
So not to be deterred I thought I would try and install some work related software. The first thing I tried was to install IBM's DB2 for linux. I followed the installation process exaclty. Guess what it didn't work. No DB2 very bad.
DB2 isn't my thing, so I can't help. It's known to work very efficiently when you do get it going though.
We do alot of REXX programming here so I thought I would install REXX from the ibm site. Even had the help of a Unix body who knows linux well. We performed the install steps. Guess what - we could'nt get it to work. As an alternative I was given oracle on a cd. Ran the program to perform the install. Guess what it didn't work.
Dunno about REXX installation but several people use it around here on Linux. For Oracle help you should join the SuSE Oracle list. Very knowledgable folks hang out there.
Bought a Linux magazine because it contained Sun Forte for Java. I follow the easy install steps as instructed by the magazine. Ran the executable that was supposed to start the program. All that happened was after pressing enter I saw the prompt again. So guess what it didn't work.
I downloaded Forte for Java and it worked straight "out of the box". Sounds like the magazine distribution of it is screwed up. Also, it could be your Java installation - that might explain the Oracle problem too, because that has a Java based installer.
Sorry for such a long winded vent. I know people here think linux is great, but this has not been my experience. I hope I dont get flamed too much for this email.
This is the most reaonably worded vent I've seen on this list for a long time! I normally just hit delete, but I thought I'd take the trouble to respond to yours.
There's no doubt that installing complex Linux applications still isn't as easy as it is for Windows, but believe me, it's much easier than it was 3 years ago. Progress is being made.
Your problem is quite obvious: you're trying to run before you can walk. You need to get into the Linux community a bit more and learn where the people are who can help you. How many people have you asked? How many mailing lists have you joined? Which newsgroups have you posted to? It does kind of bug me that often the first the Linux community hears about a newbie having problems is when that newbie throws up their hands and says "I'm giving up!". You need to focus on a single problem and get some help sorting it out. One thing at a time.
So, pick one of your problems and ask on this list. suse-e is one of the best places for getting help that I know of.
Maybe I jumped the gun a bit....Post here and we'll fix it :-)
** Reply to message from StarTux
Derek Fountain wrote:
My suggestion: dump Netscape and upgrade your KDE-2.0.1 from the SuSE-7.1 disrto to KDE-2.1.2 from the SuSE ftp site. Konqueror from 2.1.2 is all you'll need for 95% of your browsing needs.
I've got to disagree vigorously with that one. I'm often finding sites that Netscape will handle correctly (ugly though Netscape may be) and Konqeror won't. If the 5% of sites that don't work with Konqueror include ones that you want, then Konqueror just doesn't hack it. A Linux purist might say "if Konq can't handle the site, I won't go there", but for most ordinary mortals that's not a very productive attitude. My pragmatic compromise: install both, use Konq where it works and Netscape where it doesn't. Paul
On June 15, 2001 11:38 am, Paul Abrahams wrote:
I've got to disagree vigorously with that one. I'm often finding sites that Netscape will handle correctly (ugly though Netscape may be) and Konqeror won't. If the 5% of sites that don't work with Konqueror include ones that you want, then Konqueror just doesn't hack it. A Linux purist might say "if Konq can't handle the site, I won't go there", but for most ordinary mortals that's not a very productive attitude.
My pragmatic compromise: install both, use Konq where it works and Netscape where it doesn't.
Basically the same here but I'm leaning more towards mozilla. It seems so close. Nick
I've found that Konqueror has problems with sites that use CSS extensively for layout. If the problem is in the display of the page (i.e. that it really looks messed up) try this: give the "location" text box focus and press enter to reload the page. That often fixes the problem. Changing to another page using the same style sheet also seems to work, but hitting the reload button doesn't. Cheers, Chris. On Friday 15 June 2001 10:52, Nick Zentena wrote:
On June 15, 2001 11:38 am, Paul Abrahams wrote:
I've got to disagree vigorously with that one. I'm often finding sites that Netscape will handle correctly (ugly though Netscape may be) and Konqeror won't. If the 5% of sites that don't work with Konqueror include ones that you want, then Konqueror just doesn't hack it. A Linux purist might say "if Konq can't handle the site, I won't go there", but for most ordinary mortals that's not a very productive attitude.
My pragmatic compromise: install both, use Konq where it works and Netscape where it doesn't.
Basically the same here but I'm leaning more towards mozilla. It seems so close.
Nick
-- Chris Clarke security@cfourconsulting.com http://cfourconsulting.com
On Friday 15 June 2001 17:38, Paul Abrahams wrote:
Derek Fountain wrote:
My suggestion: dump Netscape and upgrade your KDE-2.0.1 from the SuSE-7.1 disrto to KDE-2.1.2 from the SuSE ftp site. Konqueror from 2.1.2 is all you'll need for 95% of your browsing needs.
I've got to disagree vigorously with that one. I'm often finding sites that Netscape will handle correctly (ugly though Netscape may be) and Konqeror won't. If the 5% of sites that don't work with Konqueror include ones that you want, then Konqueror just doesn't hack it. A Linux purist might say "if Konq can't handle the site, I won't go there", but for most ordinary mortals that's not a very productive attitude.
My pragmatic compromise: install both, use Konq where it works and Netscape where it doesn't.
Paul
The problem the original poster complained about is actually solveable.... and fairly easy once you know how. Click Edit / Preferences. Go to fonts, and select the option "Use my default fonts" Make sure you define default fonts that actually look good and work, and are the right size. This is not a Netscape/Linux problem, but more of a general Netscape/UNIX problem. You will face the same issue on Netscape on Solaris for example. Clayton
Yep, choice is what Linux is supposed to be about. I don't feel comfortable limiting the options that a user may use in his system. If you like Konq only, then use only Konq. The same holds for Netscape. If you want to use more like myself then you have the luxury of using those two plus Mozz. And If your like me and have one of those CD's from the defunct Maximum Linux mag you can instal a whole bunch more browsers. It about choice and freedom - use or don't use what you want. To me that's the very thing that is most appealing about Linux. IMHO, Cheers. Curtis. On Friday 15 June 2001 10:38 am, Paul Abrahams wrote:
Derek Fountain wrote:
My suggestion: dump Netscape and upgrade your KDE-2.0.1 from the SuSE-7.1 disrto to KDE-2.1.2 from the SuSE ftp site. Konqueror from 2.1.2 is all you'll need for 95% of your browsing needs.
I've got to disagree vigorously with that one. I'm often finding sites that Netscape will handle correctly (ugly though Netscape may be) and Konqeror won't. If the 5% of sites that don't work with Konqueror include ones that you want, then Konqueror just doesn't hack it. A Linux purist might say "if Konq can't handle the site, I won't go there", but for most ordinary mortals that's not a very productive attitude.
My pragmatic compromise: install both, use Konq where it works and Netscape where it doesn't.
Paul
Derek Fountain wrote:
My suggestion: dump Netscape and upgrade your KDE-2.0.1 from the SuSE-7.1 disrto to KDE-2.1.2 from the SuSE ftp site. Konqueror from 2.1.2 is all you'll need for 95% of your browsing needs.
I've got to disagree vigorously with that one. I'm often finding sites that Netscape will handle correctly (ugly though Netscape may be) and Konqeror won't. If the 5% of sites that don't work with Konqueror include ones that you want, then Konqueror just doesn't hack it. A Linux purist might say "if Konq can't handle the site, I won't go there", but for most ordinary mortals that's not a very productive attitude.
My pragmatic compromise: install both, use Konq where it works and Netscape where it doesn't.
As you wish! I suppose it depends where you go. I always have Javascript turned off, reject all cookies unless absolutely essential, and probably only go to information based sites anyway (as opposed to entertainment based sites which use flashy tricks which stretch the browser). I can't remember the last time I went to site which Konqueror couldn't handle.
Derek Fountain wrote:
Derek Fountain wrote:
My suggestion: dump Netscape and upgrade your KDE-2.0.1 from the SuSE-7.1 disrto to KDE-2.1.2 from the SuSE ftp site. Konqueror from 2.1.2 is all you'll need for 95% of your browsing needs.
I've got to disagree vigorously with that one. I'm often finding sites that Netscape will handle correctly (ugly though Netscape may be) and Konqeror won't. If the 5% of sites that don't work with Konqueror include ones that you want, then Konqueror just doesn't hack it. A Linux purist might say "if Konq can't handle the site, I won't go there", but for most ordinary mortals that's not a very productive attitude.
My pragmatic compromise: install both, use Konq where it works and Netscape where it doesn't.
As you wish! I suppose it depends where you go. I always have Javascript turned off, reject all cookies unless absolutely essential, and probably only go to information based sites anyway (as opposed to entertainment based sites which use flashy tricks which stretch the browser). I can't remember the last time I went to site which Konqueror couldn't handle.
There'[s a third, very big category of sites: service sites like banks and online vendors of all kinds. Those are the ones that often give me trouble. Paul
On Monday 18 June 2001 10:32, Paul Abrahams wrote:
There's a third, very big category of sites: service sites like banks and online vendors of all kinds. Those are the ones that often give me trouble.
Yes, and they're crucial for me too. I'm happy to report that so far Opera for Linux is working for me, even on a site that wouldn't work with the Windows version. I may never have to use IE again. Rudder (fingers crossed)
I'm having a minor problem with KNode. It doesn't want to load properly. Here's what's happening: After I click on the KNode menu selection, I get a brief "loading application" icon in the taskbar, but it quickly disappears, and no window has KNode running. Opening KPM finds a single sleeping KNode process with a session ID (really long hexadecimal number) grafted onto the command line. If I send a terminate signal to the process, it dies and I can then launch and use KNode normally. BTW, when KNode is running normally, it has several processes, none of which have a session ID. After closing KNode, KPM shows no KNode processes. Yet after a normal shutdown and reboot, the single KNode process with the session ID is back--and I have to terminate it to launch KNode. The problem seems to have cropped up after I upgraded to KDE 2.1.2. I've also noticed that KWin and KNotes have processes with session IDs, even though I've never used KNotes. I searched the KDE site and didn't find any reference to this behavior. Anyone else run into this? Rudder
Didn't get any response on this, so I kept on digging. Finally found the file /home/rudder/.kde2/share/config/ksmserverrc was launching the single KNode process, along with an unwanted instance of Konquerer, through something called restartCommand=. Most of the entrys in this file were in groups of eight. There were eight restartCommand commands, all with session IDs, but only three appeared to be actually being launched--the corrupt KNode process, Konquerer pointing to www.syse.com, and a single KNote process. I renamed the file so that KDE can't find it, and everything is working fine now. Apparently this is the config file for ksmserver, which I believe is the KDE session manager server. It must have somehow become corrupted. Anyway, the problem seems to be solved--for now anyway. Rudder
I'm having a minor problem with KNode. It doesn't want to load properly. Here's what's happening:
After I click on the KNode menu selection, I get a brief "loading application" icon in the taskbar, but it quickly disappears, and no window has KNode running.
Opening KPM finds a single sleeping KNode process with a session ID (really long hexadecimal number) grafted onto the command line.
If I send a terminate signal to the process, it dies and I can then launch and use KNode normally. BTW, when KNode is running normally, it has several processes, none of which have a session ID.
After closing KNode, KPM shows no KNode processes. Yet after a normal shutdown and reboot, the single KNode process with the session ID is back--and I have to terminate it to launch KNode.
The problem seems to have cropped up after I upgraded to KDE 2.1.2.
I've also noticed that KWin and KNotes have processes with session IDs, even though I've never used KNotes.
I searched the KDE site and didn't find any reference to this behavior. Anyone else run into this?
There'[s a third, very big category of sites: service sites like banks and online vendors of all kinds. Those are the ones that often give me trouble.
Yep, that's fair enough. I suppose if my bank had an online service I'd have a somewhat different opinion. The question is, do those sites work with Mozilla? AFAIK Mozilla implements W3C standard Javascript, and Konqueror is also heading that way. If they work with Mozilla, they'll work with Konqueror, at least in a while when the KDE developers catch up. ECMAScript and other browser power features (CSS etc) is, as you've noticed, a bit behind in KDE.
Just found out that my bank, Washington Mutual seems to work with Konqueror :-). Now just wish they would not charge me $20 everytime I got into the red, adn then another $20 for every other charge to the account... Matt -- "The only thing complex about Linux are the users themselves." On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Derek Fountain wrote:
There'[s a third, very big category of sites: service sites like banks and online vendors of all kinds. Those are the ones that often give me trouble.
Yep, that's fair enough. I suppose if my bank had an online service I'd have a somewhat different opinion.
The question is, do those sites work with Mozilla? AFAIK Mozilla implements W3C standard Javascript, and Konqueror is also heading that way. If they work with Mozilla, they'll work with Konqueror, at least in a while when the KDE developers catch up. ECMAScript and other browser power features (CSS etc) is, as you've noticed, a bit behind in KDE.
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq and the archives at http://lists.suse.com
The question is, do those sites work with Mozilla?
I tried my online bank with Mozilla 0.9.1 the other day, and it worked fine. I was wondering as they require 128 bit encryption. Made me happy:) -- Joe & Sesil Morris New Tribes Mission Email Address: Joe_Morris@ntm.org Web Address: www.mydestiny.net/~joe_morris "All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen." --Ralph Waldo Emerson
On Friday 15 June 2001 09:19, Derek Fountain wrote:
Netscape is a piece of crap. You're hardly the only one to suffer with that! Ironically, the problem you hightlight - small fonts - is actually not a Netscape fault. It's due to some web site designers designing only for Windows clients. You can get a set of fonts which look and scale just like the default ones used by IE5; installing those makes Netscape much more usable.
Derek, where are those fonts located? Someone posted that recently, but I can't find it in the mail list archives.
I downloaded Forte for Java and it worked straight "out of the box". Sounds like the magazine distribution of it is screwed up. Also, it could be your Java installation - that might explain the Oracle problem too, because that has a Java based installer.
Neil, I have both Oracle 8.1.7 and Forte/NetBeans working well on my Linux box. I use Oracle for much of my work. I can help you there. -ronc
for Windows clients. You can get a set of fonts which look and scale just like the default ones used by IE5; installing those makes Netscape much more usable.
Derek, where are those fonts located? Someone posted that recently, but I can't find it in the mail list archives.
Um, I don't know any more. I never use Netscape now, and haven't for a year or more, so all my Netscape knowledge was dumped in the gutter a long time ago. Did you try Google?
From Briggs, N. - Neil - to suse-linux-e@suse.com about [SLE] Linux newbie...:
Dear List members
So SUSE 7.1 professional was purchased and installed on a HP vectra machine. Installation was straight forward and connection to the network a zip. Well straight forward, hmmm, the sound card is not configured, a generic driver was automatically selected for the video card. I tried install the correct driver for the g450 card. The driver didn't work. So I cannot use the full functionality if the card:-(.
Oh, and by the way, XFree86 4.1.0 adds support for your g450 card.
-- dieter
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On June 15, 2001 10:27 am, dieter wrote:
From Briggs, N. - Neil - to suse-linux-e@suse.com about [SLE] Linux newbie...:
Dear List members
So SUSE 7.1 professional was purchased and installed on a HP vectra machine. Installation was straight forward and connection to the network a zip. Well straight forward, hmmm, the sound card is not configured, a generic driver was automatically selected for the video card. I tried install the correct driver for the g450 card. The driver didn't work. So I cannot use the full functionality if the card:-(.
Oh, and by the way, XFree86 4.1.0 adds support for your g450 card.
If you want 3d, don't bother. The latest SuSE X 4.0.3 works great for 3d on the G450 but the 4.1.0 distribution doesn't have DRI support for it. I installed it last night... When you install it, *READ THE README FILE*! There is a specific command to set up the G450 in there. - -- James Oakley Engineering - SolutionInc Ltd. joakley@solutioninc.com http://www.solutioninc.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7KiQP+FOexA3koIgRAprYAKC4UP0EYyGnBidjiHMBASbcPKpAiwCdGKqH fhDoFJ0PQsnD6xj8airhigM= =o74R -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
"Briggs, N. - Neil -" wrote:
So SUSE 7.1 professional was purchased and installed on a HP vectra machine. Installation was straight forward and connection to the network a zip. Well straight forward, hmmm, the sound card is not configured, a generic driver
During the installation you are presented an option to configure your sound card. If you didn't, log in as root and start YaST2. Go to the sound configuration in there.
was automatically selected for the video card. I tried install the correct driver for the g450 card. The driver didn't work. So I cannot use the full functionality if the card:-(.
The windowing system that came with suse 7.1 are outofdate by now. Go here: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/X/XFree86/ read the README file. I would suggest you get the updates XFree86-4.0.3-SuSE for suse71.
The first thing I tried was surfing the webb using Konquerer. What a pain. Some sites caused the browser to crash (aarrgghh!!), playing movies and streaming sound have proved too difficult to achieve. Installed real player 8 (couldn't get it to work). So I have found linux not very multi media friendly.
The KDE packages are also out of date. The most recent updates are in: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/KDE2/update_for_7.1/
I then started to use the Netscape browser instead. Arrgghhh !!!! some webb sites the text is displayed so small you cant read the information. I have tried increasing the font size but to no avail. If I click on an image to display it with the browser I get an error saying that without xv it can't be displayed ?????? I have been unable to connect to chat rooms. I would like to use ICQ but have been unable to get it to work.
Can you modify the preferences? xv is a program in the "pay" section of the installation media, is it installed? Wait a minute, do you know how display access work under the X Window System? are you familiar on how to allow display in your console? ask your UNIX buddy, but actual error messages would help.
So not to be deterred I thought I would try and install some work related software. The first thing I tried was to install IBM's DB2 for linux. I followed the installation process exaclty. Guess what it didn't work. No DB2 very bad.
actual error messages should help.
We do alot of REXX programming here so I thought I would install REXX from the ibm site. Even had the help of a Unix body who knows linux well. We performed the install steps. Guess what - we could'nt get it to work. As an alternative I was given oracle on a cd. Ran the program to perform the install. Guess what it didn't work.
ditto
Bought a Linux magazine because it contained Sun Forte for Java. I follow the easy install steps as instructed by the magazine. Ran the executable that was supposed to start the program. All that happened was after pressing enter I saw the prompt again. So guess what it didn't work.
Thought I would give linux one last chance. For fun I decide to install Achilles artificial life program. Downloaded the tar ball. Then went the whole hog of installing SDL (failed couldn't locate the header file ???? I could'nt find these either) continued regardless and tried to install the graphic environment from www.mesa3d.org. Performing the install failed because it could'nt locate the GLUT files ???? Gave up ....
SDL is in the "d" section of the installation media. I would wait for suse 7.2, it's being released today, to let it configure any 3d support.
I have now given up on linux. Other than the applications supplied with the SUSE cd I have not been able to install anything successfully. Even some apps installed from the cd don't work. I have read so many manuals and how to's that my head spins. Not knowing what the author is referring to half the time.
At work we have decided not to go ahead with linux, we are finding it just too difficult, frustrating and time consuming. Two days spent trying to install DB2 to have it not work is man hours we can't afford to waste. I will continue to learn about linux and increase what little knowledge I have already. I take some comfort from the fact that somebody who is familiar
Well, it sounds like you don't have experience in a UNIX system. Why don't you start with one of the packages you actually want to use and post your error messages. Linux is hard to learn at the beginning, but it's a satisfying experience once you get past the initial hurdles.
with linux has not been able to help. So perhaps I am not the idiot I was beginning to think I was. I still have it installed on a second partition and use Linux as more of a hobby machine. The real work stuff is done on windows. With time and a little more knowledge I hope to try linux again as with linux you feel that you are actually getting your fingers dirty.
-- Rafael
On Friday 15 June 2001 12:20, Briggs, N. - Neil - wrote:
Sorry for such a long winded vent. I know people here think linux is great, but this has not been my experience. I hope I dont get flamed too much for this email.
Kindest regards Neil
This doesn't deserve to get flamed- it's too much what it's probably like for too many people trying a new O/S. First it appears there was no clear plan of what the box was to do. This is essential. If it is an office machine is multimedia important? What is important from a work point of view? There are a number of programmes that can be used for most needs. There are numerous word & document processors, spreadsheets, databases, web browsers, mail progs etc.. What do you want to do today? (or is that question a M$ trade mark?) Second it appears that you tried various progs, and when they didn't work as you expected, you more or less gave up on them. You have three months of support from SuSE- did you try them? You've not tried this list as far as I remember. Have you tried any good books on Linux, or read trough the supplied documentation? Third, any new system you employ, especially as complex as an O/S, and all the associated software, is going to take a lot of hard work. The legacy problem with M$ is that most users forget how long it took them to get up to speed. There is always a time and hard work penalty for learning something complex and new. Forthly, don't give up. You've found some of the problems, and you've probably learned a lot. Build on that by setting limited targets and getting them right before moving on. Use what's left of your support period by asking specific questions and providing appropriate data to help. Use this list (ditto). There are a very large number of knowlegeable and helpful people here, and we would all rather you succeed than fail. I spent months trying to get my box to print out when I started. It was a real pain having to learn how to configure files by hand after years of just installing the supplied print driver under Windows (and re-installing and re-installing...), but when I was able to switch to Linux for all my business needs it was great- liberating, in short. (As an additional benefit I learned a great deal about other things whilst getting the printer to work, as well as a great deal of satisfaction seeing the first sheet coming out!) Don't be despondent, Linux is great, but the rewards are proportionate to the efort put in. Stay with it. Terence
On Friday 15 June 2001 07:20, you wrote:
Dear List members
I just thought that I would post some of my thoughts after struggling with Linux for the last couple of months. The reason for giving linux a go came as a request from my manager as we thought it would be ideal for some of our computing requirements, cost I believe was the major issue here.
So SUSE 7.1 professional was purchased and installed on a HP vectra machine. Installation was straight forward and connection to the network a zip. Well straight forward, hmmm, the sound card is not configured, a generic driver was automatically selected for the video card. I tried install the correct driver for the g450 card. The driver didn't work. So I cannot use the full functionality if the card:-(.
Did you try this: Problems with Matrox G450 http://sdb.suse.de/sdb/en/html/matrox450_72.html
The first thing I tried was surfing the webb using Konquerer. What a pain. Some sites caused the browser to crash (aarrgghh!!), playing movies and streaming sound have proved too difficult to achieve. Installed real player 8 (couldn't get it to work).
Konqueror crashing might be due to the video card. Real player 8 should work perfectly. I routinely watch the BBC news with it. Make sure you are using rp8_linux20_libc6_i386_cs2_rpm which you alter to rp8.linux20.libc6.i386.cs2.rpm .
So I have found linux not very multi media friendly.
I then started to use the Netscape browser instead. Arrgghhh !!!! some webb sites the text is displayed so small you cant read the information. I have tried increasing the font size but to no avail. If I click on an image to display it with the browser I get an error saying that without xv it can't be displayed ??????
Use Yast2 to install xv. I have been unable to connect to chat rooms. I would
like to use ICQ but have been unable to get it to work.
So not to be deterred I thought I would try and install some work related software. The first thing I tried was to install IBM's DB2 for linux. I followed the installation process exaclty. Guess what it didn't work. No DB2 very bad.
We do alot of REXX programming here so I thought I would install REXX from the ibm site. Even had the help of a Unix body who knows linux well. We performed the install steps. Guess what - we could'nt get it to work. As an alternative I was given oracle on a cd. Ran the program to perform the install. Guess what it didn't work.
Bought a Linux magazine because it contained Sun Forte for Java. I follow the easy install steps as instructed by the magazine. Ran the executable that was supposed to start the program. All that happened was after pressing enter I saw the prompt again. So guess what it didn't work.
Thought I would give linux one last chance. For fun I decide to install Achilles artificial life program. Downloaded the tar ball. Then went the whole hog of installing SDL (failed couldn't locate the header file ???? I could'nt find these either) continued regardless and tried to install the graphic environment from www.mesa3d.org. Performing the install failed because it could'nt locate the GLUT files ???? Gave up ....
I have now given up on linux. Other than the applications supplied with the SUSE cd I have not been able to install anything successfully. Even some apps installed from the cd don't work.
Which apps? Their malfunctioning may be due to the video card configuration.
I have read so many manuals and how to's that my head spins. Not knowing what the author is referring to half the time.
You should have been more persistent in e-mailig tje list Niel. I can assure you that their are people here with Matrox card experience.
At work we have decided not to go ahead with linux, we are finding it just too difficult, frustrating and time consuming. Two days spent trying to install DB2 to have it not work is man hours we can't afford to waste. I will continue to learn about linux and increase what little knowledge I have already. I take some comfort from the fact that somebody who is familiar with linux has not been able to help. So perhaps I am not the idiot I was beginning to think I was. I still have it installed on a second partition and use Linux as more of a hobby machine. The real work stuff is done on windows. With time and a little more knowledge I hope to try linux again as with linux you feel that you are actually getting your fingers dirty.
Sorry for such a long winded vent. I know people here think linux is great, but this has not been my experience. I hope I don't get flamed too much for this email.
You are not going to get flamed. You should have posted your problems. To diagnose what is wrong with your video card, you should do: grep /vsa/log/XFree86.0.log WW. (I believe it is capital XF in XFree86.0.log). This will give you the warnings from your video configuration. If you had posted that to the list we could have helped you. Anyway, good luck Niel; hope you will give Linux or freeBSD another try. You might want to try Debian the next time around. -- Cheers, Jonathan
On Friday 15 June 2001 17:37, you wrote:
You are not going to get flamed. You should have posted your problems. To diagnose what is wrong with your video card, you should do:
Oopps Should be: grep WW /var/log/XFree86.0.log
(I believe it is capital XF in XFree86.0.log). This will give you the warnings from your video configuration. If you had posted that to the list we could have helped you. Anyway, good luck Niel; hope you will give Linux or freeBSD another try. You might want to try Debian the next time around.
-- Cheers, Jonathan
participants (19)
-
Briggs, N. - Neil - -
Chris Clarke -
Clayton Cornell -
Curtis Rey -
Derek Fountain -
dieter -
James Oakley -
jfweber＠eternal.net -
Joe & Sesil Morris -
Jonathan Drews -
Nash Hoogwater -
Nick Zentena -
Paul Abrahams -
Rafael Herrera -
Ron Cordell -
Rudder -
StarTux -
stephane parenton -
Terence McCarthy