[opensuse] Search on the web
Inspired with: * advices "google that", "ask Google", "search" in our communication media * importance that search has to find information, * abundance of quality and bad information sources, which makes easy to find answer or fall in a trap, I decided to initiate creation of article about that topic. I can't do all that by myself, so it is called "creation". Initial location is: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Search_the_web and later if and when content on that page justifies broader approach it can be moved to a new title [1]. The main purpose it to help experienced users recognize what new openSUSE users don't and can't know, and vice versa. [1] Note that in our wiki title is part of URL, so it must satisfy basic rules for article title (short and still descriptive) and good URL (easy to guess and persistent; no changes after creation without link to new location). PS. If you or anyone reading this have more tips how to safely and efficiently search the web, please add to the list, either here, or directly on: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Search_the_web I can take responsibility to keep article tidy, one day when this one will have enough content, create http://en.opensuse.org/Search which will be dedicated to advices how to search for the information, in opensuse.org domain and on the web, and as additional -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op 31-12-11 16:27, Rajko M. schreef:
Initial location is: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Search_the_web and later if and when content on that page justifies broader approach it can be moved to a new title [1].
The wiki is another one of those things I hope to contribute to... if and/or when I find the time. The article is a good idea; perhaps a title with a broader scope could be: "How to get help". In that sense it could be an article explaining what search engines, forums, and mailing lists are for (and what they are not for!), and how to use them for best results.
The main purpose it to help experienced users recognize what new openSUSE users don't and can't know, and vice versa.
New year's resolution for me: put some time into openSUSE documentation. But now, I'm off to join the family chitchat. With the opportunity -- and at risk of hijacking a thread, in which case I beg you forgive me -- let me wish everyone on the list a happy ending of 2011, and a prosperous new year 2012. Haro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Saturday, December 31, 2011 04:48:19 PM Haro de Grauw wrote:
Op 31-12-11 16:27, Rajko M. schreef:
Initial location is: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Search_the_web
and later if and when content on that page justifies broader approach it can be moved to a new title [1].
The wiki is another one of those things I hope to contribute to... if and/or when I find the time.
I would be happy if everyone who is reading wiki will find 10' a week to fix typos, and report issues or propose improvements, if nowhere else it would be fine on this list, just make laud subject Wiki.
The article is a good idea; perhaps a title with a broader scope could be: "How to get help".
How to get help is to some extent described in: http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Support and that is where you land when click on Support in a left sidebar. Of course there is no perfection in wiki pages, that is not exemption.
In that sense it could be an article explaining what search engines, forums, and mailing lists are for (and what they are not for!), and how to use them for best results.
We have have covered almost all and that is linked under Contact in the mentioned left sidebar: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels This particular page needs fine tuning. I did some changes last November, but that was just to improve readability (more lists, lesser inline links).
The main purpose it to help experienced users recognize what new openSUSE users don't and can't know, and vice versa.
New year's resolution for me: put some time into openSUSE documentation. But now, I'm off to join the family chitchat.
Enjoy it, and happy New Year 1012 :)
With the opportunity -- and at risk of hijacking a thread, in which case I beg you forgive me -- let me wish everyone on the list a happy ending of 2011, and a prosperous new year 2012.
Haro -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Rajko M.
Inspired with: * advices "google that", "ask Google", "search" in our communication media * importance that search has to find information, * abundance of quality and bad information sources, which makes easy to find answer or fall in a trap, I decided to initiate creation of article about that topic. I can't do all that by myself, so it is called "creation".
Initial location is: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Search_the_web and later if and when content on that page justifies broader approach it can be moved to a new title [1].
The main purpose it to help experienced users recognize what new openSUSE users don't and can't know, and vice versa.
[1] Note that in our wiki title is part of URL, so it must satisfy basic rules for article title (short and still descriptive) and good URL (easy to guess and persistent; no changes after creation without link to new location).
PS. If you or anyone reading this have more tips how to safely and efficiently search the web, please add to the list, either here, or directly on: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Search_the_web I can take responsibility to keep article tidy, one day when this one will have enough content, create http://en.opensuse.org/Search which will be dedicated to advices how to search for the information, in opensuse.org domain and on the web, and as additional
Well I would rather say that this step could be a very good step for openSUSE. Do you know why Ubuntu is more used? Only because the support is of novice level and that's why it is used at all the major places, e.g., at French Parliament, Supreme Courts in India, Wikipedia.org servers, etc.etc..bigger places. While we all know how smooth and better is openSUSE but worldwide is not as widely used, so here I am don't want to go into any of the theoretical war but certainly the new users cannot _always_ find the relevant articles. When you say, "The main purpose it to help experienced users recognize what new openSUSE users don't and can't know, and vice versa" is the line which made my mind to write this..... Thanks, PM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Rajko M. said the following on 12/31/2011 11:27 AM:
Initial location is: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Search_the_web and later if and when content on that page justifies broader approach it can be moved to a new title [1].
The main purpose it to help experienced users recognize what new openSUSE users don't and can't know, and vice versa.
Its a yes-no-maybe situation Will newbies turn to this page first? Yes, it we are all aware of it and send them there ... But will they "Get It"? That page talks about things like google searches being unhelpful and misleading. As if the same couldn't be said about *any* advice HAHAHA. What it doesn't say is that google searches can be incredibly useful in many (?most?) cases ... IF YOU USE SOME SENSE AND DISCERNMENT. Perhaps that is the advice we should be giving. After all, we're saying that *NIX is about methods and patterns as opposed to the 'sui generis' approach of Windows.[1] Or perhaps we should just tell people to "go google" for "how to use google sensibly" :-/ [1] Some newbies do seem brainwashed into a Windows approach to problem solving and need things handed to them in detail and generally don't "Get It". They are more in need of re-orientation[2] than having their series of questions answered. [2] http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-deprogram.html -- In times of profound change, the learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists. - Eric Hoffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 08:07:37AM -0500, Anton Aylward wrote:
Rajko M. said the following on 12/31/2011 11:27 AM:
Initial location is: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Search_the_web and later if and when content on that page justifies broader approach it can be moved to a new title [1].
The main purpose it to help experienced users recognize what new openSUSE users don't and can't know, and vice versa.
Thanks for that article Rajko. It is very helpful.
That page talks about things like google searches being unhelpful and misleading. As if the same couldn't be said about *any* advice HAHAHA. What it doesn't say is that google searches can be incredibly useful in many (?most?) cases ...
Unfortunately I have to disagree. I use Google daily and it gets continuously more difficult to find technical information. Google optimizes a lot towards "normal" words and "corrects" your search and it is a rather new feature that it doesn't tell you. In the past few months it often showed articles that didn't apply at all to the problem I was looking for or shows me entries from forums or mailings lists that are older than 5 years and at the same time useful information was listed on the second or even third page.
IF YOU USE SOME SENSE AND DISCERNMENT.
Never underestimate experience and mistrust in search engines. It helps you find the right stuff. -- Bye, Stephan Barth SUSE Technical Services - SUSE LINUX GmbH GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuremberg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Stephan Barth said the following on 01/02/2012 11:25 AM:
In the past few months it often showed articles that didn't apply at all to the problem I was looking for or shows me entries from forums or mailings lists that are older than 5 years and at the same time useful information was listed on the second or even third page.
You can of course limit your search to any time period. There are pre-sets for last year ... month .. You can of course limit your search to a specific domain. You can of course search by giving boolean constrains that implement AND and NOT. Of course it helps to know DeMorgan's :-) And of course you may end up looking at and discarding many hits; this is after all a search engine, not an AI that can read your mind. It can only search given the constraints you give it, and if you give it too liberal constraints because you haven't taken the time to understand how it works, of course you are going to wade though a lot of garbage. Do schools till teach you how to do a library search using the index card catalogue? -- People who love sausages, respect the law, and work with IT standards shouldn't watch any of them being made. -- Peter Gutmann -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, January 02, 2012 05:25:23 PM Stephan Barth wrote:
Hi,
On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 08:07:37AM -0500, Anton Aylward wrote:
Rajko M. said the following on 12/31/2011 11:27 AM:
Initial location is: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Search_the_web
and later if and when content on that page justifies broader approach it can be moved to a new title [1].
The main purpose it to help experienced users recognize what new openSUSE users don't and can't know, and vice versa.
Thanks for that article Rajko. It is very helpful.
Thank you for support Stephan. Having draft as a starting point is improvement to having nothing at all, but article has to be restructured and expanded, which I hope that we can achieve with contributions and feedback. In other words expect changes, a lot of them. Anton's email helped me to think more about the problem. While his own use of "google it" in the recent posts is correct, there is a lot of people, otherwise well aware of new users knowledge, that give that advice without thinking about changes the web is undergoing every day, that accumulated trough the years, and make advice lesser sound then just few years ago.
That page talks about things like google searches being unhelpful and misleading. As if the same couldn't be said about *any* advice HAHAHA. What it doesn't say is that google searches can be incredibly useful in many (?most?) cases ...
Unfortunately I have to disagree. I use Google daily and it gets continuously more difficult to find technical information. Google optimizes a lot towards "normal" words and "corrects" your search and it is a rather new feature that it doesn't tell you.
They actually tell you when they say they optimize their search machinery. They can't go into details for two reasons: - competition (they have to find their own way) - some automatic in the improvement process that depends on changes on the web so even Google must analyze effects.
In the past few months it often showed articles that didn't apply at all to the problem I was looking for or shows me entries from forums or mailings lists that are older than 5 years and at the same time useful information was listed on the second or even third page.
That is my observation too. Search engine optimization (SEO), or in other words methods how to trick search engine, have improved over the years and it often leads to results that have very little to do with query, or are completely off topic. The other mentioned problem, obsolete results first, can be explained with higher popularity of web pages caring that information with accidental match of a query string with some content on the page, like question about same error. Example is that when you ask for "linux" you get 2 pages of results pertaining to Ubunutu, sprinkled modestly with distros. Happy New Year! -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 1:54 AM, Rajko M.
Example is that when you ask for "linux" you get 2 pages of results pertaining to Ubunutu, sprinkled modestly with distros.
And that is why it is a good step for future, and especially when it would be soon flourished. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Anton Aylward -
Haro de Grauw -
PM -
Rajko M. -
Stephan Barth